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 > 2 stroke oil in diesel

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NewsW

US

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Posted: 03/02/12 05:53pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gunpilot77 wrote:

NewsW wrote:


The best way to explain the sulfur lubricity issue to you will be to get that cited article, written by experts who have high tech tribology equipment, to show you what it is doing.

If I have time, I will dredge up the article and post extracts for you.


Thanks, but don't bother usless it specifically addresses fuel delivery systems on diesel engines. We have already established that sulphur is not a lubricant. That seems to be the battle cry of those who insist additives are needed with ULSD.




Correction.

Sulphur content in diesel fuel prior to ULSD is in fact a lubricant.

The referenced article demonstrated how it is and why.

Additives are in fact needed with ULSD, but they are added (invisible to you) at the terminal.

http://www.freelists.org/post/biofuels-forum/Low-Sulfur-Diesel-Requires-Improved-Lubricity-for-Engine-Performance,1

Quote:


In 2004 the ASTM adds lubricity requirement to diesel spec. ASTM D975-04b sets 1/1/2005 as effective date
and CARB lubricity specs match ASTM’s

USA Time line for ULSD
• 1/1/05: ASTM lubricity standards go into effect
• 12/31/05: Terminals handling diesel must register with EPA

• 6/1/06: 15 ppm limit on highway diesel (with phase-in rules)
• 6/1/07: 500 ppm limit on non-road diesel, locomotive, marine
• 6/1/10: 15 ppm limit on on-road diesel (except locomotive & marine)
• 6/1/10: 15 ppm limit on highway diesel fully implemented
• 6/1/12: 15 ppm limit on all non-road diesel, locomotive, marine


Think your question is whether additional additives are needed at the consumer level.

John & Angela

Full Timers in Canada, USA and Mexico

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Posted: 03/02/12 05:56pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

DirtyOil wrote:

Gonna add my 2 bits...

As of Oct 1, 2010 all on/off road diesel sold in Canada was to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur. ( June 1, 2006 on road diesel had to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur sold in Canada)

Low luricicty diesel fuels (<15ppm Sulphur) are required to have lubricity additives added at the refinery in Canada (but not in the US).

Lab lubricity tests are poor (procedures) and may not show presence of additives.

Fuel viscosity effects nozzle spray patterns, filter restrictions and lubricity/wear.

Think about this... where there is bad fuel problems it not only effects one vehicle, it effects many vehicles. If only one vehicle is effected, then its due to dirt (poor maintenance, did I get dirt in the filter housing when changing the filter?) Did I routinely drain the fuel filter to check for water? Or poor quality filter(s).

Owning and operating a Diesel equipped vehicle requires alot more preventive maintenace then your run of the mill gasser. Some, if not all of the failures can be pinned on the owner/operator which one can blame on the manufacturers and sales hype, meaning did I really need a diesel powered truck? Or am I trying to keep up with Jones'?

I've seen way too many individuals jump in their diesel trucks, that have no idea when or how to change a fuel filter, check their oil, look under the hood for leaks etc.. Or even walk around their vehicle! Some of these people could't even change a tire let alone know where their jack is.

So, as for lubricity, us Canadians have you guys south of the 49th over a barrel as diesel fuel here is regulated, mandated to have the "ULSD" and added lubricity.

I suggest you'all come up north buy your fuel here and consume some real beer!



If you are down south and close to the border pop across and fill up in Mexico. They still run Low sulpher diesel, not ultra low sulpher diesel and the price is still under a buck a litre.


2003 Revolution 40C Class A. 2002 Vanguard 22 foot Class C. Diesel smart car as a Toad on a smart car trailer or pulling a 2009 Timeout Tent Trailer.

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take but rather by the moments that take our breath away.

NC Hauler

Asheville NC

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Joined: 05/20/2005

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Good Sam RV Club Member

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:11pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

John & Angela wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

Gonna add my 2 bits...

As of Oct 1, 2010 all on/off road diesel sold in Canada was to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur. ( June 1, 2006 on road diesel had to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur sold in Canada)

Low luricicty diesel fuels (<15ppm Sulphur) are required to have lubricity additives added at the refinery in Canada (but not in the US).

Lab lubricity tests are poor (procedures) and may not show presence of additives.

Fuel viscosity effects nozzle spray patterns, filter restrictions and lubricity/wear.

Think about this... where there is bad fuel problems it not only effects one vehicle, it effects many vehicles. If only one vehicle is effected, then its due to dirt (poor maintenance, did I get dirt in the filter housing when changing the filter?) Did I routinely drain the fuel filter to check for water? Or poor quality filter(s).

Owning and operating a Diesel equipped vehicle requires alot more preventive maintenace then your run of the mill gasser. Some, if not all of the failures can be pinned on the owner/operator which one can blame on the manufacturers and sales hype, meaning did I really need a diesel powered truck? Or am I trying to keep up with Jones'?

I've seen way too many individuals jump in their diesel trucks, that have no idea when or how to change a fuel filter, check their oil, look under the hood for leaks etc.. Or even walk around their vehicle! Some of these people could't even change a tire let alone know where their jack is.

So, as for lubricity, us Canadians have you guys south of the 49th over a barrel as diesel fuel here is regulated, mandated to have the "ULSD" and added lubricity.

I suggest you'all come up north buy your fuel here and consume some real beer!



If you are down south and close to the border pop across and fill up in Mexico. They still run Low sulpher diesel, not ultra low sulpher diesel and the price is still under a buck a litre.



if it's not recommended to use the low sulphur diesel in the newer diesels, why would I want to fill up with something that isn't recommended to be used in my truck??


Jim & Kathy
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Gale Hawkins

Murray, KY

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:15pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for the link. Thought sulfur was not a lube all along but a side effect.

Gunpilot77

Killeen, Tx

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:22pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:


Correction.

Sulphur content in diesel fuel prior to ULSD is in fact a lubricant.

Think your question is whether additional additives are needed at the consumer level.


Just another contradiction.

I don't have a question, I know that a) sulphur is not a lubricant, no matter the ratio and b) additional additives are not required in ULSD.

But if you are really a believer that sulphur is a lubricant I have a solution for you. Sulphur is readily available from a lot of sources. Dissolve about 2 ounces of it in the tank and you will get the 500ppm you think is so great. Better yet, combine it with another myth that has come up on the net. Dissolve the sulphur in a quart of ATF, then pour it into the tank. Run about 1000 gallons of treated fuel through the system and let us know how happy you are.


Fifth wheel pulled with a pick-up

NewsW

US

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:31pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gunpilot77 wrote:


But if you are really a believer that sulphur is a lubricant I have a solution for you. Sulphur is readily available from a lot of sources. Dissolve about 2 ounces of it in the tank and you will get the 500ppm you think is so great. Better yet, combine it with another myth that has come up on the net. Dissolve the sulphur in a quart of ATF, then pour it into the tank. Run about 1000 gallons of treated fuel through the system and let us know how happy you are.




That is what separates a tribologist from the boys.

John & Angela

Full Timers in Canada, USA and Mexico

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:42pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NC Hauler wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

Gonna add my 2 bits...

As of Oct 1, 2010 all on/off road diesel sold in Canada was to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur. ( June 1, 2006 on road diesel had to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur sold in Canada)

Low luricicty diesel fuels (<15ppm Sulphur) are required to have lubricity additives added at the refinery in Canada (but not in the US).

Lab lubricity tests are poor (procedures) and may not show presence of additives.

Fuel viscosity effects nozzle spray patterns, filter restrictions and lubricity/wear.

Think about this... where there is bad fuel problems it not only effects one vehicle, it effects many vehicles. If only one vehicle is effected, then its due to dirt (poor maintenance, did I get dirt in the filter housing when changing the filter?) Did I routinely drain the fuel filter to check for water? Or poor quality filter(s).

Owning and operating a Diesel equipped vehicle requires alot more preventive maintenace then your run of the mill gasser. Some, if not all of the failures can be pinned on the owner/operator which one can blame on the manufacturers and sales hype, meaning did I really need a diesel powered truck? Or am I trying to keep up with Jones'?

I've seen way too many individuals jump in their diesel trucks, that have no idea when or how to change a fuel filter, check their oil, look under the hood for leaks etc.. Or even walk around their vehicle! Some of these people could't even change a tire let alone know where their jack is.

So, as for lubricity, us Canadians have you guys south of the 49th over a barrel as diesel fuel here is regulated, mandated to have the "ULSD" and added lubricity.

I suggest you'all come up north buy your fuel here and consume some real beer!



If you are down south and close to the border pop across and fill up in Mexico. They still run Low sulpher diesel, not ultra low sulpher diesel and the price is still under a buck a litre.



if it's not recommended to use the low sulphur diesel in the newer diesels, why would I want to fill up with something that isn't recommended to be used in my truck??


Good point. It was directed at those of us with pre 2007 or european diesels, of which we have 4.

NC Hauler

Asheville NC

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Joined: 05/20/2005

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Good Sam RV Club Member

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:45pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

John & Angela wrote:

NC Hauler wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

DirtyOil wrote:

Gonna add my 2 bits...

As of Oct 1, 2010 all on/off road diesel sold in Canada was to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur. ( June 1, 2006 on road diesel had to be ULSD <15ppm Sulphur sold in Canada)

Low luricicty diesel fuels (<15ppm Sulphur) are required to have lubricity additives added at the refinery in Canada (but not in the US).

Lab lubricity tests are poor (procedures) and may not show presence of additives.

Fuel viscosity effects nozzle spray patterns, filter restrictions and lubricity/wear.

Think about this... where there is bad fuel problems it not only effects one vehicle, it effects many vehicles. If only one vehicle is effected, then its due to dirt (poor maintenance, did I get dirt in the filter housing when changing the filter?) Did I routinely drain the fuel filter to check for water? Or poor quality filter(s).

Owning and operating a Diesel equipped vehicle requires alot more preventive maintenace then your run of the mill gasser. Some, if not all of the failures can be pinned on the owner/operator which one can blame on the manufacturers and sales hype, meaning did I really need a diesel powered truck? Or am I trying to keep up with Jones'?

I've seen way too many individuals jump in their diesel trucks, that have no idea when or how to change a fuel filter, check their oil, look under the hood for leaks etc.. Or even walk around their vehicle! Some of these people could't even change a tire let alone know where their jack is.

So, as for lubricity, us Canadians have you guys south of the 49th over a barrel as diesel fuel here is regulated, mandated to have the "ULSD" and added lubricity.

I suggest you'all come up north buy your fuel here and consume some real beer!



If you are down south and close to the border pop across and fill up in Mexico. They still run Low sulpher diesel, not ultra low sulpher diesel and the price is still under a buck a litre.



if it's not recommended to use the low sulphur diesel in the newer diesels, why would I want to fill up with something that isn't recommended to be used in my truck??


Good point. It was directed at those of us with pre 2007 or european diesels, of which we have 4.



10-4.....

NewsW

US

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:49pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Think I am going to put some rocks in my truck called molybdenum disulfide to improve its lubricity.

ol Bombero-JC

USA

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Joined: 06/24/2004

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Posted: 03/02/12 07:03pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bishops wrote:

From what I have read the ultra low sulfur has less lubricant for the pre 07 diesels. It is worth reading up on in my opinoin.


Search out the (blind) Lubricity Study contracted by the D/Max forum.

Very thorough and widely re-printed on lots of diesel forums etc.

Compares and rates all the various additives - including 2-stroke oil.

BTW - two stroke oil didn't do too well.

~

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