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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Is V-10 Technology Dead?

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BenK

SF BayArea

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Joined: 04/18/2002

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Posted: 03/02/12 02:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Yes, and yes...but that is speaking to the choir, as the real target doesn't
get it (ever try to discuss HP vs Torque?...know you guys know it is
torque x RPM / 5252)...PS..have come across engineers who really
don't understand that concept or relationship

Or that most don't understand the difference between a small block and a big block
Or that they have very different attributes. Toss in diesel and they are even
lost farther in the forest

Mass and inertia on a RECIPROCATING assembly has not context to
them and only look at displacement. To many have no concept of how
the piston/rod/etc are trying to fly out of the block at the RPMs they
want to run at (that HP thing again)

The other comments of volumetric efficiency, flame front travel time
vs position within the stroke, etc are lost except for those in the choir

All they care or know is HP & how fast....marketing works really, really well on them

Not, or only kinda sorta complaining and accept that as that is the
way of it for the majority of consumers out there. It is within that
crowd who now drive the OEMs to go into areas where only boy racers
used to play.

Boy racers knew/know that to play in that arena...there was a price to
pay...and that was that things will break sooner than later.


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

NewsW

US

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Joined: 02/06/2012

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Posted: 03/02/12 02:25pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The horsepower race have cost the diesel its traditional advantages:

- reliability + economy.

If I can get a domestic (not European) or Japanese (e.g. Isuzu) small diesel in a US made 1/2 ton truck, I would.

2.5 liters, turbocharged, 300ft lbs of torque, 100hp.

ib516

Up here!

Senior Member

Joined: 04/18/2003

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Posted: 03/04/12 08:35am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Its to bad Ford got rid of the v10 in the pickups. Hopefully they will come up with something a little more powerful than the 6.2L. As good add it is, the v10 was better for heavy hauling IMO.


2010 Cougar 322QBS 5er
Prev:
01 Dodge 2500 360 gas, 4.10
02 Dodge 2500 5.9L Cummins, 3.55
07 Dodge 3500 SRW Mega 5.9L Cummins, 3.73
Current:
2014 RAM 2500, 6.4L Hemi, 4.10, auto

10000# GVWR, 5500# FGAWR, 6500# RGAWR, 3040# payload, 15470# tow rating, 22500# GCWR


RobertRyan

Australia

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Joined: 03/16/2008

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Posted: 03/03/12 06:47pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

f I can get a domestic (not European) or Japanese (e.g. Isuzu) small diesel in a US made 1/2 ton truck, I would.

2.5 liters, turbocharged, 300ft lbs of torque, 100hp.

Actually you are looking at a 4.9 or 5.2 diesel, they make about 520lbs of torque.Plenty for a 1/2 ton.

Shogun

Winnipeg

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Joined: 06/28/2008

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Posted: 03/04/12 08:27am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ok guys, from a V10 owner here is my take...

In a 8000lb truck with a 7000+ pound trailer a V8 is adequate. ie the GM 6 litre gasser. Ford's 5.4 just doen't cut it.

The Ford 6.8 litre engine has good torque and HP for moving 15000+ pounds of stuff.

Mountains are not a problem, flats are not a problem, passing is not a problem. Let this engine rev a bit and it really moves.

These thing have a rock solid reputation for dependablilty.

The true issue with the V10 is that if you are at idle, 20mph, or 70mph you are displacing 6.8 litres of air and fuel! Increase RPM and that goes up. For city driving it will kill you. When towing it gets very similar mileage to any other gasser! There are certian laws of physics you can't get past. You need torque to get the load moving, HP allows you to move the load faster at a cost of fuel.

Variable displacement is the best answer. That can either be by deactivating cylinders or forced induction (turbo charging).

There are also other technologies that can slightly improve efficiency.

The jury is out as to the long term longevity of the ecoboost option, skyactive is also brand new.

It is highly improbable that the V10 will be able to complete with the new technologies.

In the medium duty/heavy duty truck area companies need to consider a few things about the engine when purchasing a vehicle:

1) What is the initial cost of the vehicle and engine setup.
2) What is the ongoing cost of maintenance of said engine.
3) How long could this engine be down for repairs. Lost time is more expensive than the initial cost of the engine.
4) What are the worst case costs for common repairs.

Recently with some local companies, it is more cost effective to have a dependable gasser with higer fuel costs but better dependability. With the higher cost of diesel the fuel costs are on a narrower scale. Dependablity rules when it comes to the business model.

A $15000 fuel system repair on a truck destroys any potential fuel savings!!


Spree 318bhs. Blue Ox Sway Pro WD hitch.
Primary tow vehicle 2008 F350 V10 Crew cab.
Back-up tow vehicle 2005 4Runner V8 Limited.

NewsW

US

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Joined: 02/06/2012

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Posted: 03/03/12 06:49pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RobertRyan wrote:

NewsW wrote:

f I can get a domestic (not European) or Japanese (e.g. Isuzu) small diesel in a US made 1/2 ton truck, I would.

2.5 liters, turbocharged, 300ft lbs of torque, 100hp.

Actually you are looking at a 4.9 or 5.2 diesel, they make about 520lbs of torque.Plenty for a 1/2 ton.



That is my point.

I don't need 520ft lbs, I need about 300ft lbs.

I want the economy of a smaller engine.

rjstractor

Auburn, WA

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Posted: 03/04/12 01:13pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Unless there is another crash / fire involving gas powered ambulances and an outcry over the fire hazard from gasoline.


I remember early in my fire service career when we made the switch from gas to diesel in ambulances. The diesels were much better on fuel, but SLOW. We went from an E350 van based ambulance with a 460 gas to an F350 truck based diesel (considerably heavier) and the diesel rigs were painfully gutless.

Our local paramedic provider service is going with the E450 V10 since the diesel is no longer available. It will be interesting to see how they do. I'm sure they can't wait to get rid of the 6.0.


1998 Gulfstream Ultra B/H Ford E450 V10
2005 Chevy 2500HD 6.0 w/ Maxidump insert
2006 Ford Escape Hybrid
1998 Saturn SL2 toad
2012 VW Jetta S

ib516

Up here!

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Posted: 03/04/12 05:11pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My BIL went from 6.0L PSD powered E350s to 6.8L V10 powered E350s in his ambulance service because he got tired of the tens of thousands he had to dump into the diesels to keep them running. The gassers are slower, but they don't break down weekly like the diesels did.

MM49

Brighton, MI, USA

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Joined: 12/28/2004

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Posted: 03/04/12 09:58am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

bkirkpatrick wrote:

With the rising cost of gas over the years and diesel costing that much more than gas, is any more technology being put into creating a stronger V-10 engine to really compete with a diesel. I know that diesels are a completely different monster and I am not talking about makings a 600ci V-10 but is the V-10 ever going go go anywhere but where it currently is or is it pretty much maxed out technology wise.

The era of big gas is only starting again, wait 2 years.
MM49

NewsW

US

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Posted: 03/04/12 01:04pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MM49 wrote:

bkirkpatrick wrote:

With the rising cost of gas over the years and diesel costing that much more than gas, is any more technology being put into creating a stronger V-10 engine to really compete with a diesel. I know that diesels are a completely different monster and I am not talking about makings a 600ci V-10 but is the V-10 ever going go go anywhere but where it currently is or is it pretty much maxed out technology wise.

The era of big gas is only starting again, wait 2 years.
MM49



Maybe less if they rushed it into production.


The evaluations of V10s in ambulance duty is solid, and notwithstanding the old reason why Ford refused to sell a gasoline chassis for ambulance use, the diesel in that application is done for.

Unless there is another crash / fire involving gas powered ambulances and an outcry over the fire hazard from gasoline.

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