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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

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Huntindog

phoenix arizona USA

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Posted: 03/10/12 03:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

My comments in red.
Also the ONLY thing that Ford's PM22A has going for it is that Ford pushes it whole heartily.
Ford has not tested it on the 6.7. Ford also stated that they don't know anything about the pump, as they buy it as a "black box" from Bosch.
So Ford really can't say for certain if their additive is helping anything more than their bottom line.





Should Ford inform a customer that the failure is caused by the use of Ford PM22A in recommended doses, it would make for a rather interesting set of fireworks/

Hunting:

Am I mistaken or have Ford cut back on warranties recently?

The 6.7 powertrain, not counting emissions warranty required by law, is only warranted for 5/60?

Is there another powerstroke warranty in addition to the legally required emissions warranty?


My take on the PM22A is that Ford is figuring that the profits from it's sales can be used to offset the potential losses from the HPFP fiasco I wonder if it could slowly be damaging the DLC, so that the failure may show up after the warranty is up.

I haven't kept up on Ford's warranty terms.


Huntindog
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ricatic

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Posted: 03/10/12 03:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ford says 5yr/100000 miles on the engine...yeah...right


Ricatic
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coolbreeze01

Redding, Ca

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Posted: 03/10/12 04:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lest we forget.........Pinto Fires


2008 Dodge 3500 With a Really Strong Tractor Motor...........
LB, SRW, 4X4, 6-Speed Auto, 3.73, Prodigy P3, Blue Ox Sway Pro........
2014 Sandsport 26FBSL

NewsW

US

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Posted: 03/10/12 04:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

coolbreeze01 wrote:

Lest we forget.........Pinto Fires



That goes into my bin with the following:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War

durallymax

Wisconsin

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Posted: 03/10/12 04:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Below are some links to the LML fuel system that Henry posted up.

The Piezo injectors are fired from 160-240v @20amps according to the GM documents. Thats a lot of juice and is why you see the orange harnesses now on the duramax.

There is also a valve used to keep pressure in the return system which is supposed to aid in firing the injectors.

The CP4 pump is timed so that its pulses match up with injection events.

A pressure regulator is still mounted on the pump but an additional one was added to control how much fuel is bled off into the return system from the high pressure system. Essentially replacing the fuel pressure relief valve.


Fuel Routing

parts listing

NewsW

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Posted: 03/10/12 05:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bosch piezo electric injectors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftchx1TDNJo&feature=relmfu




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIkMtnd3LGQ&feature=relmfu

Diesel Fuel Pressure Limiter Operation


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niYW9pkPCH4&feature=relmfu

Diesel Pressure Sensor Testing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=85IP8eY1nXY

Diesel Piezoelectric Injector Driver Circuit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPB5_9o11tI&feature=relmfu


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67GSNUR7eqM

* This post was edited 03/10/12 05:35pm by NewsW *

BenK

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Posted: 03/11/12 02:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

durallymax wrote:

snip...

The CP4 pump is timed so that its pulses match up with injection events.

A pressure regulator is still mounted on the pump but an additional one was added to control how much fuel is bled off into the return system from the high pressure system. Essentially replacing the fuel pressure relief valve.
snip...


Was going to ask what 'timing' meant, but this solves that and goes
to both confirm and tell-tale that they are aware of the pressure waves
we have been discussing

BUT how can ONE pump (single or even twin piston) be timed with
8 injectors? Then the secondary/tertiary/etc harmonics?...or are they
so low as to be noise?

Is there a sensor on the pump shaft vs the ECU or whatever is controlling
the injection system to allow them to sync? AKA...cam sensor for
ignition control


My controls DB hairs raised reading that there are *TWO* regulators
and/or relief valves to the return?!?!?

A huge tell-tale that they had a problem, chased it and solved it to
some level of confidence with the addition of another set of regulators/valves

Not good engineering, IMHO...worse if there is a 3rd set.

Marry that with the open question of whether there is/are any plenum/accumulator

That deals with pressure waves backfeeding to the piston chamber

Back to the piston chamber...am convinced there is cavitation issue(s)

Back to the lube and chamber for the shaft/cam/lifter and the shaft
bearing (it should be needle and hope large enough, as have seen too
many go too small dia needles) and the shaft seal.

Think a multitude of issues that are multiplexing.

H2O intrusion from the fuel (both raw H2O and emulsified) and now think
one mystery solved...must be or highly likely the pump shaft bearing
seal

Where does the pump shaft/cam/bearing lube go to after lubing that area?

Does it go back to the tank via the return line? Or becomes directly
the next intake for the piston?

Just have to find time to read up that article NewsW sent me on organic amines.

BenK

SF BayArea

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Posted: 03/11/12 03:23pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Forgot to comment on that Ford patent covering cooling the returned fuel....

Another indicator that there is a moisture issue (condensation) in the fuel tank.

Maybe emulsified H2O in the brew and will need to noodle how that witches brew
behaves with warm/hot returned fluids into a cooler (how much cooler?)
pool of fuel.

Then the various additives and their interplay with the base fuel

Is this a good assumption that the heated fuel returned has any H2O excised
during whatever goes on 'up there' ?

now that leads to vacuum in the pump shaft/cam/etc cavity. If there is, is it
pulling in external stuff via the bearing seal?

Then if it does, it matters where that cam cavity lube/fuel goes next. If into
the HIGH PSI piston, to then see high vacuum to be exposed to cavitation, or if
it goes back to the tank, then is it laden with some level of H2O and/or contaminates ?

Noticed that all this revolves around H2O and possible contaminates exposed to
cavitation

How does that sound? Make any sense?

BenK

SF BayArea

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Posted: 03/11/12 03:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

H2O is known bad for non-plated ferrous components. Injectors (gasser) are known
to have problems with H2O, but don't know if diesel does too

But haven't heard anyone mention that, to toss the injectors as an issue with H20

The pump surfaces are DLC plated, but don't know if every last square inch is.
Does anyone know and then ask if there is any data on corrosion of those non-plated
areas/components within the pump?

Am trying to find the path the OEMs are hanging their hats on in regards to H2O
in the system

Corrosion is what am guessing they are referring to

Now the DLC and organic amines coming apart (another assumption that the OEMs
are saying) due to H20, but basically 'used' to know that diamond is very stable
and non-reactive.

Add organic amines, but no data that I'm aware of (dang, just have to find time
to read that article)

Add in cavitation, which I'm now leaning big time towards, as the accelerating
catalyst to all of this.

Then go back to a different type of pump that would NOT have such a high cavitation
potential. A gear pump would be my choice, but know that some sealed impeller
advertised PSI's in that range (very expensive and I have no other knowledge of
how well they live to their spec's).

Which then says there is a need to just replace the piston pump with
a gear pump with everything else the exact same to both remove the
piston as the culprit and/or say cavitation is the culprit

More later when have more time to noodle this...very intriguing !!!

NewsW

US

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Posted: 03/11/12 03:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Fuel, by the very nature of going through high compression, is going to heat up even before it carries away heat from the pump.

Note --- remember Bosch patent to isolate pump from engine to reduce heat transfer?


If you heat up the fuel in the tank via the return hose, it will tend to become hydroscopic and whatever moisture in the tank that is separated will diffuse / be absorbed into the fuel up to the maximum non-emulsified water capacity of the fluid for that temperature.

When it cools down, it will either lose the moisture by letting it drop out, or more likely, become a super-saturated solution that can turn into a emulsion with some shaking / vibration.

That can create an emulsification that may not be filtered out.

Need to know whether a water blocking membrane (usually a polymer) will block water in emulsion vs. water.

Is the Ford filter equipped with a water blocking membrane?

GM?

* This post was edited 03/11/12 05:48pm by NewsW *

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