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Open Roads Forum  >  Towing

 > are dealers fibbing?

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mkirsch

Rochester, NY

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Joined: 04/09/2004

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Posted: 03/02/12 12:00pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

They're just IGNORANT, and they truly believe that what they are telling you is the God's honest truth.


2002 Chevy 3500 DRW/8.1/Allison & 2000 Palomino B1500 popup TC

-Yes, I haul a popup with a dually. No, I don't think I need a dually to haul a popup.

BenK

SF BayArea

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Joined: 04/18/2002

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Posted: 03/02/12 12:24pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Most are ignorant and some even telling a kinda sorta truth and this diagram
kinda sorta tells why

It has to do with how the specifications/ratings are presented and derived. OEMs
have no choice than to do this and is where salesfolk either are ignorant or playing
games

The option mix is large and the matrix even larger of the potential combos. The
options all add weight to the TV. Then the cargo, people, pets, ice chest, etc
also add weight

Since the OEMs used a 'curb' TV (that is the stripper with no options other than
the tow option) and one 150lb driver to derive the MTWR (max tow weight rating)

If you do NOT have that stripper, then the MTWR is wrong for 'your' vehicle

Why it is best to go out and weigh your setup axle by axle, both empty and fully
loaded ready to go camping...then do the simple math against the published ratings
for your TV




So when a salesperson says my Suburban is good for a 10,000 lb trailer
They are not lying, just out of context. Sure it's rated for that 'IF'
it is at curb weight, but it isn't

I have the big block (several hundred pounds more than the stock V8)
Have 4x4, which is another few hundred pounds more than stock. Highest
upgrade package(s) and is also several hundred pounds more (power chair,
window, locks, 2nd/3rd row seats, etc, etc)

I weigh more than the standard 150lb driver they use. Am 180 lbs

Have a toolbox that weighs 150lb to 250lbs depending what is in there
for that trip.

Then the other 7 seat belts and the cargo in the back and/or on the
roof rack.

After all that, it's not rated for a 10K lb trailer

We see tons of folks coming here after they bought the salesperson
'sure you can', 'your TV is rated for that', etc complaining that they
are having problems (struggling, sagging, etc)

Mostly 7K GVWR, but the bigger/next higher class TV's also come here
complaining after they bit the sales pitch hook line and sinker


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

fla-gypsy

North Florida

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Joined: 04/19/2005

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Good Sam RV Club Member

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Posted: 03/02/12 01:41pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Everyone is blaming the sales people and dealers but all they are doing is using the manufacturers own marketing information. Funny, no one ever blames the makers for this foolishness. While there are a few (very few) 1/2 tons capable of carrying significantly sized trailers the vast majority are not. Ultimately the consumer must educate themself about the real capabilities of their his/her tow vehicle and understand the dynamics of tow ratings vs. stated trailer ratings.


This member is not responsible for opinions that are inaccurate due to faulty information provided by the original poster. Use them at your own discretion.

09 SuperDuty Crew Cab 6.8L/4.10(The Black Pearl)
06 Keystone Hornet 29 RLS/(The Cracker Cabana)

BenK

SF BayArea

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Joined: 04/18/2002

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Posted: 03/02/12 02:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

fla-gypsy wrote:

Everyone is blaming the sales people and dealers but all they are doing is using the manufacturers own marketing information. Funny, no one ever blames the makers for this foolishness. While there are a few (very few) 1/2 tons capable of carrying significantly sized trailers the vast majority are not. Ultimately the consumer must educate themself about the real capabilities of their his/her tow vehicle and understand the dynamics of tow ratings vs. stated trailer ratings.


How else should the OEMs present their specifications?

Like said, the matrix for the various options vs 'true' ratings would
be very, very large and even more confusing to the consumer

There are better and better on-line programs on the various OEM sites
that do calculate the weights after inputting the options you wish
to purchase...but that doesn't account for the rest of the picture
The stuff folks will load into/onto their TV's and trailers (both
Fivers and tongued)

Agree that the consumer should educate themselves and the real responsibility
should be with the consumer/driver

Then factor in advice from this type of forum. The 'sure you can',
'have been doing it for decades with no problems', 'don't believe
their spec...it's all marketing', etc

How many times does a newbie post that they have bought XYZ trailer
or wondering why their spec MTWR is not real, or just wanting to hear
the 'sure you can' (knowing deep down that they are in trouble)

The 80% rule of thumb often expressed is kinda sorta ok, as it does
cast a net that captures lots of them out there, but at the edge of
the limits, it is NOT good enough

Again, boils down to the consumer to know what they are getting into
Why I made up that diagram, but see that way too many either don't
understand even that simple diagram and/or ignore it to continue to
think/believe the MTWR is an absolute

BenK

SF BayArea

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Joined: 04/18/2002

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Posted: 03/02/12 02:15pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Posts like this one all too common and know that is only those who are willing
to search out and find this forum to ask questions

I brought home my new TT and I'm afraid of it!

smkettner

Southern California

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Joined: 03/21/2005

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Good Sam RV Club Member


Posted: 03/02/12 02:18pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I would not turn to a salesman for towing advice unless he had a degree in mechanical engineering.
Even then I would take it with a grain of salt.


2001 F150 SuperCrew
2006 Keystone Springdale 249FWBHLS
675 watts solar
Send a PM if I missed something

Ron Gratz

full time RVer

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Joined: 12/27/2003

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Posted: 03/02/12 03:58pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mayorb wrote:

I've been looking to trade the tt, been to 3 dealers with my 1/2 ton. Any larger trailer we looked at they all say no problem. But here's the thing, cargo rating for tv empty is 1460 lb. Most hitch weights DRY are 700-850 lb.rating one at 950lb.---
The trailer's dry tongue weight is a very meaningful number when you are discussing "can I tow this" with a salesman.

Before going to the dealership, you should make a good estimate of how much remaining TV payload is available to support tongue weight after the TV is loaded for camping.

You also should make a good estimate of how much cargo you will add to the trailer. If you don't have good estimates, just pick some reasonable values for discussion purposes.

Then you can assume that the trailer's tongue weight will increase by an amount equal to approximately 15% of the added cargo -- again, good enough for discussion purposes.

Let's assume you estimate the TV will have 900# of available payload capacity. Also assume you plan to add 1000# of cargo which would increase the tongue weight about 150# above the dry tongue weight.

Then, if the salesman says it is okay to tow a trailer with dry tongue weight of 950#, you can mentally add the 150# and tell him that would put you at least 200# over the TV's GVWR.

Ron

TomG2

Central Illinois

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Joined: 03/07/2004

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Posted: 03/02/12 04:49pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Son of Norway wrote:

Based on my experience, 1/2 tons are just not up to the job for a tow vehicle of anything that has any size or weight to it.

Miles


Many on here agree with you, and then someone will mention a certain F-150 which is really an almost F-250. It is surprising that they even put hitches on all the other 1500's and F-150's.

dodge guy

Bartlett IL

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Joined: 03/23/2004

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Online
Posted: 03/02/12 06:43pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

TomG2 wrote:

Son of Norway wrote:

Based on my experience, 1/2 tons are just not up to the job for a tow vehicle of anything that has any size or weight to it.

Miles


Many on here agree with you, and then someone will mention a certain F-150 which is really an almost F-250. It is surprising that they even put hitches on all the other 1500's and F-150's.


None of this makes any sense at all! especially considering all the numbers are printed for you in black and white! if it is within the ratings then I don`t see a problem.


Wife Kim
Son Brandon 13yrs
Daughter Marissa 12yrs
Dog Bailey

07 Cherokee 32B
02 Excursion 4X4 V-10 4.30 gear 5Star tuner Y-pipe mod Hellwig sway bar
Reese DualCam, Prodigy brake controller

A bad day of camping is
better than a good day at work!


Gale Hawkins

Murray, KY

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Joined: 07/22/2007

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Posted: 03/02/12 06:50pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mayorb wrote:

I've been looking to trade the tt, been to 3 dealers with my 1/2 ton. Any larger trailer we looked at they all say no problem. But here's the thing, cargo rating for tv empty is 1460 lb. Most hitch weights DRY are 700-850 lb.rating one at 950lb. Once just for fun the dw and I looked at a 5er with a DRY hitch of 1200 lb. Not a problem he says.

I'll say that they're just salesmen, not fibbing.
What do you guys think?


Lying for financial gain is still lying in my world.

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