4x4ord wrote: Yes I realize these ratings exist and you would think they might mean something but my whole point is that they don't. It is not a standardized system - each manufacturer develops there own tests so they can rate their trucks at whatever they want. If they need to up the rating they can simply change the test. The ratings are for marketing purposes. Maybe using maximum tire ratings is a more meaningful number. I am not at all meaning to come across as arrogant. I honestly think that any experienced driver (even if he has little to no towing experience) would feel very comfortable and safe driving my truck with even a 20,000 lb trailer behind it. (and as I have said before the GM and Dodge would likely perform very similarly) I just happen to have 17,500 lbs hooked up to the truck at the moment and so just for kicks I unhooked the trailer brakes and measured the truck's stopping distance from 20 mph. It took 21 feet without trailer brakes. Nothing about the way the truck handles this weight gives any indication that the truck is being heavily taxed. I would much sooner have my 18 year old daughter tow a 20,000 lb trailer with this truck than turn her loose in the highway tractor without a trailer hooked up. So if someone with little experience towing had a 20,000 lb RV I believe he would be much safer with a new dually diesel than a class 8 highway tractor as his tow vehicle even though the 1 ton might be "overloaded" according to manufacturer's ratings. Depending on his pin weight I might even suggest that he would be fine with a SRW. I would suggest the tire ratings should be used as the pin weight limitation and the max trailer capacity should be based on what the engine alone can hold back on a 8% slope in second gear. (that gives low gear and brakes for Mr. Murphy's crossing)
Well, forums are known for differing opinions. This one is yours and you're entitled to it.
I towed my 18,500 gvwr trailer with a class 6 with air brakes etc., and definitely felt safer than my previous Duramx 2500 towing a 14,000gvwr fiver. That's my opinion.
I don't doubt that but what year was your Duramax? I didn't feel overly safe towing a 14000 lb trailer with my previous Duramax either.
2011 F350 SRW short box 4x4 CC 6.7 PS King Ranch
B&W TurnoverBall and Companion
2003 Citation Supreme 34 RLTS
Time to put some demographic metrics to this which might help...
We all live on bell curves. Most of the herd is in the middle, or fat part
Bell curves for just about every aspect of our being
For this topic, there are several bell curves with one master, which is towing
Then there are ones for <7,xxx lb TVs, another for 8K-9K lb TVs, etc
#1 point is that there is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL. There are groups or
lumpings or whatever you wish to call each different bell curve.
#2 Am assuming that the fat part of the towing bell curve do NOT tow what the
OP tows, so that means the OP is at one end of one of those bell curves
#3 Since the majority of the folks on this forum are in the fat part...how does
the OP's position on the ratings apply ?
#4 Of those in the fat part of that class of TV and TT, how many are experienced
enough to manage driving and maintaining a set up at the absolute limits, if
not over the limits (or ratings)...this is yet another bell curve
#5 How would one set up a rating system that would combine all of those bell
curve attributes into one set of ratings that would apply to ever last one
of those on any one of those bell curves???
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
4x4ord wrote: Yes I realize these ratings exist and you would think they might mean something but my whole point is that they don't. It is not a standardized system - each manufacturer develops there own tests so they can rate their trucks at whatever they want. If they need to up the rating they can simply change the test. The ratings are for marketing purposes. Maybe using maximum tire ratings is a more meaningful number. I am not at all meaning to come across as arrogant. I honestly think that any experienced driver (even if he has little to no towing experience) would feel very comfortable and safe driving my truck with even a 20,000 lb trailer behind it. (and as I have said before the GM and Dodge would likely perform very similarly) I just happen to have 17,500 lbs hooked up to the truck at the moment and so just for kicks I unhooked the trailer brakes and measured the truck's stopping distance from 20 mph. It took 21 feet without trailer brakes. Nothing about the way the truck handles this weight gives any indication that the truck is being heavily taxed. I would much sooner have my 18 year old daughter tow a 20,000 lb trailer with this truck than turn her loose in the highway tractor without a trailer hooked up. So if someone with little experience towing had a 20,000 lb RV I believe he would be much safer with a new dually diesel than a class 8 highway tractor as his tow vehicle even though the 1 ton might be "overloaded" according to manufacturer's ratings. Depending on his pin weight I might even suggest that he would be fine with a SRW. I would suggest the tire ratings should be used as the pin weight limitation and the max trailer capacity should be based on what the engine alone can hold back on a 8% slope in second gear. (that gives low gear and brakes for Mr. Murphy's crossing)
Well, forums are known for differing opinions. This one is yours and you're entitled to it.
I towed my 18,500 gvwr trailer with a class 6 with air brakes etc., and definitely felt safer than my previous Duramx 2500 towing a 14,000gvwr fiver. That's my opinion.
Bruce,
I'd feel safer with the class 6 and an 18K trailer too. I would not pull more than 12K with the 2500!, yeah it is rated higher, legal and all that stuff, but my personal limit is 2x the GRAWR. IIRC your IHC was on par with mine at 13-15K GRAWR. I'm at 15,500, from a pushing the truck standpoint, it does not know my 12K equipment trailer is back there. The non turbo 175 hp 7.3L diesel knows it is back there, much less trying to haul the empty truck at 12K around!
Reality at the end of the day, we need to feel that a truck will not get pushed by the trailer. The truck has the HP to pull at speed on the level, up an X% freeway grade, has brakes to stop the truck, maybe some of the trailer.....reality to stop the trailer takes a REALLY BIG TWUCK vs trailer size......and would be illegal in most states/jurisdictions to pull over a 3500 lbs trailer/towed rig with out brakes, some as low as 1000 lbs. The ability to not stall out in first gear at the steepest you pull.......
The New ASE specs, mean nothing to me, they are about as useless as the current guidelines! I do like 4x4ords idea of a spec to say ho well a given rig will hold the trailer in 2nd or 3rd or equal lower gear on an 8-15% grade. 8% from a freeway standpoint, or 15 from a local road, ALtho 20 would be better yet if you live here in seattle where I am. I was on a few that were in the 18-22 range today. 20+% grades get interesting, less than 15% are Yawners! Bigger than an ant hill, not as large as a mole hill.........
At the end of the day, who's specs for gcwr or equal are correct?
NO ONES! why, we all have a different idea as to what is is, should be etc, hence why there is not a jurisiction that enforces them. GAWR yes to a degree, and even then, it is legal axel load!
Marty
05 Chev CC D/A LS Dooley
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
00 Chev C2500, V5700, 4L80E, 4.10, base truck, no options!
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer
3 Single axle utility trailers
4x4ord wrote: Yes I realize these ratings exist and you would think they might mean something but my whole point is that they don't. It is not a standardized system - each manufacturer develops there own tests so they can rate their trucks at whatever they want. If they need to up the rating they can simply change the test. The ratings are for marketing purposes. Maybe using maximum tire ratings is a more meaningful number. I am not at all meaning to come across as arrogant. I honestly think that any experienced driver (even if he has little to no towing experience) would feel very comfortable and safe driving my truck with even a 20,000 lb trailer behind it. (and as I have said before the GM and Dodge would likely perform very similarly) I just happen to have 17,500 lbs hooked up to the truck at the moment and so just for kicks I unhooked the trailer brakes and measured the truck's stopping distance from 20 mph. It took 21 feet without trailer brakes. Nothing about the way the truck handles this weight gives any indication that the truck is being heavily taxed. I would much sooner have my 18 year old daughter tow a 20,000 lb trailer with this truck than turn her loose in the highway tractor without a trailer hooked up. So if someone with little experience towing had a 20,000 lb RV I believe he would be much safer with a new dually diesel than a class 8 highway tractor as his tow vehicle even though the 1 ton might be "overloaded" according to manufacturer's ratings. Depending on his pin weight I might even suggest that he would be fine with a SRW. I would suggest the tire ratings should be used as the pin weight limitation and the max trailer capacity should be based on what the engine alone can hold back on a 8% slope in second gear. (that gives low gear and brakes for Mr. Murphy's crossing)
Well, forums are known for differing opinions. This one is yours and you're entitled to it.
I towed my 18,500 gvwr trailer with a class 6 with air brakes etc., and definitely felt safer than my previous Duramx 2500 towing a 14,000gvwr fiver. That's my opinion.
I don't doubt that but what year was your Duramax? I didn't feel overly safe towing a 14000 lb trailer with my previous Duramax either.
We have not felt anything bad with our duramax but we would not tow with a 2500 any brand or for sure a short box truck at our 14380 lbs or 22920 total combined weight.
chevman
chevman
2001 35 ft avalon alpenlite RK
2005 3500 2wd duramax CC dually
prodigy
easyrider/reese airhitch
trailair center point suspension
JT Strong Arm Stabilizers
KSH 55 inbed fuel tank
Garmin 2720
scanguage II
TD-EOC
Induction Overhaul Kit
TST tire monitors
Following this thread is truly informative and entertaining! Many of the points have been made time and again and it seems to be turning into an arguement (civil mind you) to see who is gonna have the last word.
You can really see when name calling starts that nothing constructive can be offered.
4X4ord, and Marty seem to be offering reasoned arguments IMO. BenK, while I see your point. 4X4ord's point makes sence in that inexperience really wouldn't matter if the inexperienced driver/tower had to much combination vehicle (for them) even if the TV was fully up to the task. If in a class A motor coach, you lack training/experience but have a license that says you can, legally you can. That's when they say, you know just enough to be dangerous.
An example of this, in America most states will allow you to test to get a motor cycle liscense with a say 200 cc MC. You then have a license that says you know how to ride/operate a MC. You now can go out and buy a 1100 cc MC and ride it legally. You at that point know just enough to be dangerous. For those that know what I'm talking about, it is a VAST difference between a 200 cc MC and an 1100 cc MC. You see it all the time, solo accidents W/MC's and inexperienced riders that thought they knew what they were doing.
So.., with all of that said. I fully see the points Marty and 4X4ord are making. If I can sum it up (what I'm saying), just because your TV has the ability and you fall within the spec's doesn't make you safe. Only time and experience can do that and if I may, my signature kind'a speaks to this.
For the person that has to ask, can my vehicle do this? It's assumed that the person asking the question has a 35' Jayco and a WD hitch and they want to know if their 1.6L Smart Car can do the job. I've seen people with fully capable vehicles ask this question. That takes away from the "logic" of if they have to ask.., and the advise that follows.
* This post was
last
edited 04/03/12 12:31am by E&J push'n wind *
View edit history
Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know much, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom.
E&J push'n wind wrote: Following this thread is truly informative and entertaining! Many of the points have been made time and again and it seems to be turning into an arguement (civil mind you) to see who is gonna have the last word.
You can really see when name calling starts that nothing constructive can be offered.
4X4ord, and Marty seem to be offering reasoned arguments IMO. BenK, while I see your point. 4X4ord's point makes sence in that inexperience really wouldn't matter if the inexperienced driver/tower had to much combination vehicle (for them) even if the TV was fully up to the task. If in a class A motor coach, you lack training/experience but have a license that says you can, legally you can. That's when they say, you know just enough to be dangerous.
An example of this, in America most states will allow you to test to get a motor cycle liscense with a say 200 cc MC. You then have a license that says you know how to ride/operate a MC. You now can go out and buy a 1100 cc MC and ride it legally. You at that point know just enough to be dangerous. For those that know what I'm talking about, it is a VAST difference between a 200 cc MC and an 1100 cc MC. You see it all the time, solo accidents W/MC's and inexperienced riders that thought they knew what they were doing.
So.., with all of that said. I fully see the points Marty and 4X4ord are making. If I can sum it up (what I'm saying), just because your TV has the ability and you fall within the spec's doesn't make you safe. Only time and experience can do that and if I may, my signature kind'a speaks to this.
For the person that has to ask, can my vehicle do this? It's assumed that the person asking the question has a 35' Jayco and a WD hitch and they want to know if their 1.6L Smart Car can do the job. I've seen people with fully capable vehicles ask this question. That takes away from the "logic" of if they have to ask.., and the advise that follows.
Another great post!
Today is just the tomorrow you worried about yesterday!
4x4ord wrote: Yes I realize these ratings exist and you would think they might mean something but my whole point is that they don't. It is not a standardized system - each manufacturer develops there own tests so they can rate their trucks at whatever they want. If they need to up the rating they can simply change the test. The ratings are for marketing purposes. Maybe using maximum tire ratings is a more meaningful number. I am not at all meaning to come across as arrogant. I honestly think that any experienced driver (even if he has little to no towing experience) would feel very comfortable and safe driving my truck with even a 20,000 lb trailer behind it. (and as I have said before the GM and Dodge would likely perform very similarly) I just happen to have 17,500 lbs hooked up to the truck at the moment and so just for kicks I unhooked the trailer brakes and measured the truck's stopping distance from 20 mph. It took 21 feet without trailer brakes. Nothing about the way the truck handles this weight gives any indication that the truck is being heavily taxed. I would much sooner have my 18 year old daughter tow a 20,000 lb trailer with this truck than turn her loose in the highway tractor without a trailer hooked up. So if someone with little experience towing had a 20,000 lb RV I believe he would be much safer with a new dually diesel than a class 8 highway tractor as his tow vehicle even though the 1 ton might be "overloaded" according to manufacturer's ratings. Depending on his pin weight I might even suggest that he would be fine with a SRW. I would suggest the tire ratings should be used as the pin weight limitation and the max trailer capacity should be based on what the engine alone can hold back on a 8% slope in second gear. (that gives low gear and brakes for Mr. Murphy's crossing)
Well, forums are known for differing opinions. This one is yours and you're entitled to it.
I towed my 18,500 gvwr trailer with a class 6 with air brakes etc., and definitely felt safer than my previous Duramx 2500 towing a 14,000gvwr fiver. That's my opinion.
Bruce,
I'd feel safer with the class 6 and an 18K trailer too. I would not pull more than 12K with the 2500!, yeah it is rated higher, legal and all that stuff, but my personal limit is 2x the GRAWR. IIRC your IHC was on par with mine at 13-15K GRAWR. I'm at 15,500, from a pushing the truck standpoint, it does not know my 12K equipment trailer is back there. The non turbo 175 hp 7.3L diesel knows it is back there, much less trying to haul the empty truck at 12K around!
Reality at the end of the day, we need to feel that a truck will not get pushed by the trailer. The truck has the HP to pull at speed on the level, up an X% freeway grade, has brakes to stop the truck, maybe some of the trailer.....reality to stop the trailer takes a REALLY BIG TWUCK vs trailer size......and would be illegal in most states/jurisdictions to pull over a 3500 lbs trailer/towed rig with out brakes, some as low as 1000 lbs. The ability to not stall out in first gear at the steepest you pull.......
The New ASE specs, mean nothing to me, they are about as useless as the current guidelines! I do like 4x4ords idea of a spec to say ho well a given rig will hold the trailer in 2nd or 3rd or equal lower gear on an 8-15% grade. 8% from a freeway standpoint, or 15 from a local road, ALtho 20 would be better yet if you live here in seattle where I am. I was on a few that were in the 18-22 range today. 20+% grades get interesting, less than 15% are Yawners! Bigger than an ant hill, not as large as a mole hill.........
At the end of the day, who's specs for gcwr or equal are correct?
NO ONES! why, we all have a different idea as to what is is, should be etc, hence why there is not a jurisiction that enforces them. GAWR yes to a degree, and even then, it is legal axel load!
Marty
Not sure how many might find this interesting but just for kicks I did a little calculating to find out what it would take to hold a 23,000 lb (15000 lb rv and 8000 lb truck) back from accelerating down a 20% grade. Here is the numbers:
23000 lbs acting on a 20% grade yields 4600 lbs of pull trying to rotate the wheels
This 4600 lbs of pull on 34" inch wheels would put roughly 6500 ft*lbs of twist on the rear axle
6500 ft*lbs after going through the rear axle and 1st gear of the transmission (3.55 X 3.97) ends up putting 461 ft *lbs of twist on the crank which would require 85 psi back pressure on the pistons of a 6.7 litre engine in order to keep the weight in check. (this doesn't take into account the other forces such as wind and rolling resistance which are trying to slow the unit down but does give a bit of an indication as to what an exhaust brake would be faced with)
I don't think I would want to be heading down that hill with my 30,000 lbs of bales.
This thread has certainly been informative and some of the points made by posters are spot on the money.
I have watched with great interest over the last few years how the spec's of pick-up trucks have steadily climbed with changes to drivetrain and frame config. while the overall footprint of the vehicle changed very little in it's UVWR.
This improvement to spec's has induced some of the crowd who became devotees of the class 7/8 conversion to RV status for purposes of towing larger fivers to move back to the more convenient pick-ups. There are now 3500's out there hooked to the same trailer I found towing with my class 6 optimal. These folks I've known for years and respected their ability to determine "safe" as opposed to marginal and "iffy". A significant number are fulltimers who tow over many miles per year.
Your average hot-shotter delivering these heavy things racks up significant safe miles with few recorded accidents. Heavy trailers arrive on dealers lots all over the country somehow and it would be my bet it would be rare indeed to see them being towed by classes above 5.
It needs be said that advancements to trailer equipment also plays a part in this discussion as some folks might make the move to a larger trailer based on that trailer having hydraulic disc brakes rather than the 10/12" magnetic variety.
In short; if we go by "feel" and feel alone; I will be one who would "feel" safer towing with a class 6/7/8 over any pick-up based on my experience with the breed and ability to drive it competently with a thorough knowledge of all it's systems and behaviours.
This is not to say I would feel "unsafe" towing a heavy trailer with any properly "combined weight rated" pick-up truck. I would simply adjust my driving habits vis-a-vis hill descents etc., accordingly, as would the rest of you.
Not to say you numbers are wrong, but assuming you have an auto, would the TC effect any of you numbers? most rigs have a 1.73 in the case of GM, last I saw ford uses a 2.05, then less 20% for heat and slippage of your (3.55x3.97) so about 23.17 overall low ratio assuming a 2.05 TC. If not, that would at least be the OA low of the uphill part assuming you have used fords numbers. about 16-1 for a GM. The 23-1 with 600-700 lb of torque would give someone 30-35% gradabilaty in 1st gear.
Looking up some charts I have with 650, that would be just over 30 and under 25%. The chart is at 25K and with 20K, just over 30 and 35%. As a comparison the GM 6.0 gas has a 27.56 with 4.10s, 300 lb ft would net you just under 30 at 20K and about 20% at 25K. The GM gas is not that far behind what a dmax would in 1st gear. The dmax would be about 15% at idle with 300 lb ft at 20K 9-10% at 25K, ford about 18 and 23% at idle.
Assuming the reverse from som holding power, one can see the steepest grade one would hold a given gear.
Marty
on edit,
I am remembering the chart I am getting numbers off of, uses a 10.00x24.5 tire as its base diam, IIRC 36" maybe 40, so the above % grade numbers would be increase by the smaller tire diam of Ford 34", GM 31". Multiply the grade by 40/31 and 40/34. or 36/31 and 36/34. Puts GM's numbers a bit better in realation to the Ford figures.
* This post was
edited 04/03/12 08:35am by blt2ski *
4x4ord wrote: On I another thread i was accused of being arrogant for claiming I need a bigger trailer to find my truck's towing limit. I know allot of people on here think the gvwr numbers are some kind of magical numbers that actually mean something - I used my cell phone to make a little video that I hope gives some indication of how comfortably my F350 SRW handles a 30,000 lb trailer. This new truck is easily towing twice what it is rated for. (towing this trailer is as relaxing as taking the car for a Sunday drive) My 03 diesel didn't handle half this weight as confidently yet both are rated for roughly 15000 lb 5th wheels. My point is that the new series of diesels are much more capable than the old even though the weight ratings haven't really changed all that much. http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k585/4x4ord/2012-03-28155731.jpg
where i'm from this is a norm lots of farms doesn't change is hard on the truck is legal with farm plate far as know...not really rv topic i know people that had pick-ups plated for #48,000 in a matter of years the repair bills added up to the cost of a used class 8 truck
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