If we're talking about total usage then that's going to vary by a whole lot. Mine is 49Ah per day and that includes a few hrs of TV on inverter and furnace AND I have all LEDs. 35Ah isn't out of line nor on the high side IMO.
* This post was
edited 04/08/12 05:44pm by mena661 *
I'm still trying to figure out 0.5 A quiescent draw that Salvo mentioned. In absence of plugged in and unloaded inverter, and excluding LP fridge electronics, there is one culprit that is often overlooked - AM/FM/CD system permanently plugged in. It can easily draw 0.15-0.3A when it's "off", because it is in fact a standby mode, with clock running and radio presets kept alive. It's not suited well for an offgrid life. Not to sparkle another "green" debate, just to note that a small offgrid system is a different animal from big ones.
As long as we are going to formalize and establish etiquette...
Ever tell a joke in a group of (ahem) and then have to try and explain it?
Please do note the difference between sarcasm and irony as offered below...
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Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt", usually conveyed through irony or understatement. Most authorities distinguish sarcasm from irony; however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony or employs ambivalence.
1 Origin of the term
4 Vocal indication
5 Sarcasm punctuation
6 See also
8 External links
The word comes from the Greek ????????? (sarkasmos) which is taken from the word ????????? meaning "to tear flesh, gnash the teeth, speak bitterly".
It is first recorded in English in 1579, in an annotation to The Shepheardes Calender: October:
Tom piper) An Ironicall [Sarcasmus], spoken in derision of these rude wits, whych make more account of a ryming rybaud, then of skill grounded upon learning and iudgment.
Dictionary.com describes the use of sarcasm thus:
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes. It may be used in an indirect manner, and have the form of irony, as in "What a fine musician you turned out to be!" or it may be used in the form of a direct statement, "You couldn't play one piece correctly if you had two assistants." The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal intonation ...
Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way, such as saying "don't work too hard" to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive. Sarcasm can frequently be unnoticed in print form, oftentimes requiring the intonation or tone of voice to indicate the quip.
Understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions. This sophisticated understanding can be lacking in some people with certain forms of brain damage, dementia and autism, (although not always) and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus.
Cultural perspectives on sarcasm vary widely with more than a few cultures and linguistic groups finding it offensive to varying degrees. Thomas Carlyle despised it: "Sarcasm I now see to be, in general, the language of the devil; for which reason I have long since as good as renounced it". Fyodor Dostoyevsky, on the other hand, recognized in it a cry of pain: Sarcasm, he said, was "usually the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their soul is coarsely and intrusively invaded." RFC 1855, a collection of guidelines for Internet communications, even includes a warning to be especially careful with it as it "may not travel well".
 Vocal indication
In English, sarcasm in amateur actors is often telegraphed with kinesic/prosodic cues by speaking more slowly and with a lower pitch. Similarly, Dutch uses a lowered pitch; sometimes to such an extent that the expression is reduced to a mere mumble. But other research shows that there are many ways that real speakers signal sarcastic intentions. One study found that in Cantonese, sarcasm is indicated by raising the fundamental frequency of one's voice.
 Sarcasm punctuation
Main article: Irony punctuation
Though in the English language there is no standard accepted method to denote irony or sarcasm in written conversation, several forms of punctuation have been proposed. Among the oldest and frequently attested are the percontation point—furthered by Henry Denham in the 1580s—and the irony mark—furthered by Alcanter de Brahm in the 19th century. Both of these marks were represented visually by a backwards question mark (unicode U+2E2E). A more recent example is the snark mark. Each of these punctuation marks are primarily used to indicate that a sentence should be understood at a second level. A bracketed exclamation point and/or question mark as well as scare quotes are also sometimes used to express irony or sarcasm.
In certain Ethiopic languages, sarcasm and unreal phrases are indicated at the end of a sentence with a sarcasm mark called temherte slaq, a character that looks like an inverted exclamation point
In subtitling for the hearing impaired, sarcasm and irony is often shown by the use of the "(!)" icon.
^ Oxford English Dictionary
^ Boxer, D. (2002). "4 - 'Yeah right:' sociolinguistic functions of sarcasm in classroom discourse". Applying Sociolinguistics: Domains and Face-to-Face Interaction. John Benjamins Publications. p. 100. ISBN 9789027218506. "Only people can be sarcastic, whereas situations are ironic."
^ Partridge, E. (1969). Usage and Abusage: A Guide to Good English. Penguin Press. ISBN 0-393-31709-9. "Irony must not be confused with sarcasm, which is direct: sarcasm means precisely what it says, but in a sharp, caustic, ... manner"
^ Fowler, H. W. (1950). A Dictionary of Modern English Usage. Oxford University Press. "Sarcasm does not necessarily involve irony. But irony, or the use of expressions conveying different things according as they are interpreted, is so often made the vehicle of sarcasm ... The essence of sarcasm is the intention of giving pain by (ironical or other) bitter words"
^ Rockwell, P. A. (2006). Sarcasm and Other Mixed Messages: The Ambiguous Ways People Use Language. Edwin Mellen Press. ISBN 9780773459175.
^ Oxford English Dictionary
^ rybaud: ribald.
^ Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford University Press, 2008; (Spenser, Shepheardes Calendar: on-line text of the passage)
^ "Irony". Dictionary. Dictionary.com.
^ Shamay-Tsoory, S. G.; Tomer, R.; Aharon-Peretz, J. (2005). "The Neuroanatomical Basis of Understanding Sarcasm and Its Relationship to Social Cognition". Neuropsychology 19 (3): 288–300. doi:10.1037/0894-4220.127.116.118. PMID 15910115.
^ Dan Hurley (June 3, 2008), The Science of Sarcasm (Not That You Care), New York Times
^ Slap, J. W. (1966). "On Sarcasm". The Psychoanalytic Quarterly 35: 98–107.
^ Carlyle, Sartor Resartus.
^ Dostoyevsky, Notes from Underground
^ Kinesic/prosodic cues are among five cues to sarcasm's presence noted by Diana Boxer, 2002:100; the other cues are counter-factual statements, extreme exaggeration, tag questions, and direct cues.
^ Cheang, H. S.; Pell, M. D. (2009). "Acoustic markers of sarcasm in Cantonese and English". Journal of the Acoustic Society of America 126 (3): 1394–1405. doi:10.1121/1.3177275. PMID 19739753.
^ "A Roadmap to the Extension of the Ethiopic Writing System Standard Under Unicode and ISO-10646" (pdf). 15th International Unicode Conference. p. 6. Retrieved 22 January 2011.
 External links
Look up sarcasm in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: Sarcasm
re: "WOW! They must have *really* improved batteries since I designed ... used to average ELEVEN 100% DOD cycles* before the 20 amp hour rate slumped 50%.
Optimum 20% DOD cycles yielded 500+ cycles, while 50% DOD yielded an average of 200 to 240 cycles before 50% A/H was broached.
Must be dilithium crystals added to the paste. Maybe they now green raw batteries in 200% humidity.
Perhaps trying to find understanding rather than using denial might be a better approach?
What is being said here, as I understand it, is that a person who claims to be a lead acid battery design engineer asserts that the typical experience of the automobile battery that gets run flat a number of times due to lights left on or whatever can't be. And that experience is refuted in very strong terms it appears to me.
In trying to understand this, I note the 100% DoD reference. Most of the lab tests for cycle life I have seen use an 80% DoD reference and an 80% of original capacity as the reference points for testing. The SLI battery data I have seen using these criteria tend to have a cycle life of 100 to 300 cycles. This does fit with the "Optimum 20% DOD cycles yielded 500+ cycles" being that that cycle life was to 50% rather than 80% of original capacity.
When it comes to matters like this, I think education and explanation would be a much better approach than sarcasm and ridicule. There are many issues to explore. One is the detection of end of life in an RV application. Another is the variabilities in RV usage profile and its impact on battery life. Another is the typical necessary RV capacity reserves and its impact on cycle depth. Another is recharge rates and charge completeness. Another is actual cycle length and its implications on cycle life over a nominal battery calendar life expectation.
Battery Reliability ... is a start on some of this. It'd be nice if there was someone in the industry that was able to participate in helping to dispel some of the many myths on these forums and contribute towards understanding batteries as they currently exist and are used in RV's. Instead, snarc and putdowns and such things seem to be more common and that seems a severe disservice to everyone here.
"With regard to the Kirkland 27DC and Wal-Mart MAXX-29 batteries, I got
this message from Johnson Controls:
The deep cycle GC2 golf carts are antimony/calcium (+/-) designed
batteries. They are also deep cycle batteries. These will achieve ~400
The other batteries (24M-27M-29HM) I mentioned have a different alloy
system than the golf cart batts, calcium/calcium (+/-). These are still
deep cycle product but do not achieve the high cycling that the golf carts
It all deals with the positive grid alloy (antimony-high cycling &
still deep cycle but cannot achieve the cycle life of an antimony positive
grid). Nearly all battery companies use Ca/Ca designs for the group
24M-27M & 29HM."
We do not test our
product at 80% DOD. We run 100% DOD at 80F. The 27M runs between 85-100
You can use this battery in a golf cart or electric vehicle. You
longer life if you used the Golf Cart battery. COSTCO also sells the GC2
JCI_Power Solutions Group"
OK, testing a FLOODED LEAD ACID cyclable battery at ten percent of amp hour rating is logical because it is a reasonable and rational value that is commonly found in an RV lifestyle.
Discharging an RV jar battery a greater number of ampere hours than 50% isn't productive. That is called destructive testing.
Recharging an RV jar battery at a rate less than maximum temperature controlled voltage limited amperage is "Boy In A Bubble" testing. It is neither accurate or realistic.
As far as destructive battery test replication is concerned. Take a new RV battery of choice. Connect it to a resistive load rated no greater than ten percent of the battery's published, ampere hour rating. Discharge the battery until such time as a volt meter reading indicates 00.00 volts. Let the battery remain connected with load applied for twelve additional hours at 00.00 volts. Again, real-life testing. How many times does an inadvertently totally discharged battery remain that way for 12 hours? Thereupon recharge the battery until all cells attempt to reach their maximum specific gravity reading. No, boy-in-a-bubble recharging allowed. I used 14.7 volts corrected to 20C. When I did NIST certified destructive battery testing, I measured total kWh capacity of the battery under test using the same parameters.
Repeat this test (300?) times with a car jar RV battery. Please contact me if any CAR JAR FLOODED LEAD ACID battery manages to survive more than say twenty cycles and retains more than say fifty percent of it's potential amp hour capacity. You may contact me via the RV'ers forum here. I have not been and am not now being sarcastic or witty about this.
Using calcium hybrid metallurgy has been around a long time for GRID manufacturing. It is the composition of the PASTE that Johnson Controls refused to talk with me about YESTERDAY on a telephone call to their engineering dept. I talked with a genuine engineer not an "Applications Engineer". The latter is little more than an informed salesman.
Why bother reporting the number of sympathetic emails I have received from fellow battery design engineers over the years, either active or retired? I back up what I say with test parameters that are easily duplicatable. Even for the layman. A test that yields a paradoxical result must be reported. Engineer Ego is one, primarily of curiosity. I would love it if proven wrong on this point. It means that batteries, flooded lead acid car jar batteries have taken a quantum leap forward, leaving me, my views, and technology in the dust.
If you become perturbed, emotional, distressed, or otherwise disenchanted with my postings or answers, it would be so very easy for you to skip them.
* This post was
edited 04/17/12 05:42pm by an administrator/moderator *