Chris, I thought so as well, that is why I posted it.
I trained horses for a living. I occasionally used a Spanish Spade bit which many see as inhumane. But when used properly by the right hands it produces a horse of great beauty and softness.
"Using" them well? I didn't see a single instance of the collars being activated on the dogs at all. That's because he isn't "using" the collars to train the dogs. He's training the dogs, and he's got the collars as a back-up. That's a very normal thing, particularly when working with dogs that are high drive, such as malinois. In bite work, it can interrupt a dog that has gotten too excited and may not come off immediately when ordered. In working with a dog at a distance, it allows for precisely timed corrections.... GIVEN BY THE TRAINER.... while the dog is out of reach. It does not "train" the dog, it makes the trainer more effective in training the dog, in some circumstances.
Whether or not it produces a well behaved dog in the long run is another matter, and if the owner isn't sufficiently engaged and continuing to.... wait for it.... TRAIN the dog, it won't. The dog will regress, or only listen when the collar is on, or even learn to ignore the collar. I've seen good outcomes, and I've seen bad outcomes. The bad outcomes are people who use the collar to avoid doing the work, expecting it to solve the problem for them. The good outcomes are the people who use the collar to enhance a solid training program that is designed to not only condition in responses, but reinforce the dog's respect for and confidence in the human leader.
What he's NOT doing is putting a bark collar on a badly behaved dog and saying "problem solved."
Even at that, most dogs don't actually need an e-collar for training, up to and including training at working dog levels on things like drugs, SAR, bombs, and arson. An e-collar is unheard of where I've worked on dogs that do those jobs. "Patrol" dogs wear them if they are having a problem listening, and that became much more common when the department went to the malinois. If you want to play "video wars" I'll be happy to go find you a million videos on youtube of dogs that are incredibly well trained and do all kinds of incredible things.... and you will see no e-collar in sight. I'm not a "never correct the dog" person by a long shot, but the vast majority of training is accomplished by rewarding wanted behaviors.
I realize that when you've decided to let a widget do your work, it is upsetting to have someone say that's not a good idea. But arguing that the lazy way to do things is really better isn't going to change the facts. You get what you pay for in life. If you put in the work, you get a dog that respects you and understands the behavior that you want. If you have a widget, you get a dog that respects or fears the widget. That's all.
susan
Fuzzy Wuzzy was a wabbit, Fuzzy Wuzzy had a dandelion habit! RIP little Wuz... don't go far.
Code2High wrote: "Using" them well? I didn't see a single instance of the collars being activated on the dogs at all. That's because he isn't "using" the collars to train the dogs. He's training the dogs, and he's got the collars as a back-up. That's a very normal thing, particularly when working with dogs that are high drive, such as malinois. In bite work, it can interrupt a dog that has gotten too excited and may not come off immediately when ordered. In working with a dog at a distance, it allows for precisely timed corrections.... GIVEN BY THE TRAINER.... while the dog is out of reach.
Oh good grief. Of course he's *training* the dog and of course you didn't see him shock the dog on the video - NOBODY would be that stupid. "Watch how high ol' Sparky jumps when I push this here button...."
The man is obviously a gifted trainer who knows how to encourage dogs to do the RIGHT thing (and I'm sure he rewards that good behavior) and he has a shock collar to discourage the bad behavior exactly the moment that it happens. It explains why he "can train a dog in half the time" - one good, well-timed correction with a shock collar usually makes a monumental impact on most dogs' memories. It's why Cesar uses one, too - a good collar gives you the range to impact a dog who's far out of reach.
So now we're back to "widgets can be good" ;-)
And a no-bark collar doesn't train a dog not to bark, because everyone who's ever used one knows that the dog will willingly bark when the collar isn't present - it just stops unwanted behavior (excessive barking)
Tools that assist with training can be good. Widgets that replace it are never good.
Using an e-collar to assist with training can be good, if done correctly and under certain circumstances. Using a bark collar to avoid training is never good.
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