45Ricochet wrote: This last thread topic suggested I don't pay road tax's so I'll just bail out while I can. (oh they are gutless and run out of fuel before you find a station and you'll never recoup the up front cost, IMO)
Woooo, woooo, wooo, I did not suggest you did not pay road tax. (did I?, I hope not) I would never do such a thing....well......at least to you.
I was just thinking out loud. If you did have NG for your home and you went CNG for your truck (or boat ) and owned your own pumping station, how would "the man" know it had no road tax on it? You just put a tap line on your house line to your pumping station and in your truck it goes.
Sorry, I have to go. I have to go hook up my pumping station.
I knew that, just jerking your chain.
But reality is all the new alternative fuel source vehicles are going to have to be regulated in some way like you suggest. The great tree hugger states like Oregon and the biggest one Washington have dockets already lined up cause, well they're broke. It only seems fair IMO just like Cali lets the "green" (right) vehicles run in the car pool lanes with no restrictions as to occupants, err head counts. Don't get me going on the "nice" vehicles. The only nice one is my horse, except on Fridays which of course is stall cleaning day She never complains about her bad CP.4 pump either
If you are buying fuel for $2.50 a gallon, not $4.50, you can save the $11,000 in 100,000 miles.
There is 115,000 Btu's in a gallon of gas, and about 135,000 Btu's in a gallon of diesel. So consider your local cost for 1 therm of Natural gas? That is 100,000 Btu's of gas, about 98 cubic feet at 0.5 PSI.
Running a compressor to take 1/2 PSI natural gas and pump that to 3,000 PSI takes a lot of energy. At least where Long Beach California located it's compressors, they used main line pressure of 42 PSI at the inlet of the 5 stage compressors. This is not something that a homeowner can do, but UPS or other large customers might get metered at 8 PSI, instead of the normal 0.5 PSI found in houses.
The CNG compressors take so much power than Long Beach installed some natural gas powered compressors that fill huge reservoir tanks. Then they sell this to fill many taxi's and fleet trucks run by the city, even a few dozen police cars.
This website shows the CNG filling stations in California, and you can find them all the way up I5 until you get near the Oregon border, then they are rare. Good thing the GM truck has a gasoline tank too.
I know someone who drove a CNG truck from Long Beach to Reno back in 1999. Now it is much easier, with public filling stations all over the place. Still kinda difficult to find, but possible now.
LNG is much different. Brought in from out of state, it is -160F natural gas that has turned to liquid and is much more concentrated. So 8 gallons can run a UPS truck for a day! While possible to liquify LNG, it is much easier to import it - it is transported by ship that way.
Problem with a LNG truck is you can not store it indoors until the fuel tank is empty. So a engine rebuild might lead to the shop burning down. Once the fuel starts to warm up, and the fuel tank goes over 10 PSI, then the tank vents, releasing the fuel gas into the air around the truck to cool the remaining fuel in the tank. Well insulated tanks, they can sit about 3 days without being refueled with new cold gas, but after that time, they will start to vent.
LNG can be made into CNG just by warming it up, then it will pressurize the vessel it is contained in. they make special warming tanks to make LNG into CNG.
LP gas is much lower pressure - only about 200 PSI at 100F, and maximum tank pressure around 400 PSI. LP gas is also a much warmer temperature while a liquid, it can be less than 75 psi when cooled to 32F. LNG will not stay a liquid when in a 10 PSI tank unless it stays below -125F.
The company I work for isn't exactly betting the farm on producing LNG/CNG products... But they sure are dumping a LOT of $$ into R&D so they can be at the forefront in the industry....
When we came out with the T600 in 1985 it was not very well received either.
Jeff
2002 GMC Sierra 2500HD 8.1/Allison/4:10/Prodigy brake controler/Dual Cam HP
I nearly went back to school last year, and my research included converting vehicles to CNG. I was shocked at how Uncle Sam manages to rape the wallet of anyone considering any aspect of this. On the extreme other end of the spectrum, I found gotpropane.com. This is actually very tempting for my '69 F350 dually, and getting it's gas-guzzler 390 V8 to 400 HP ( on gasoline ) is no challenge, I can do that for under $2,000. Add another grand to make it dual-fuel ( gasoline or propane, switch on the fly ) what's not to like?
Propane can be had in every city, since most all forklifts burn it. And with the right app on my "phone", finding more becomes easy.
Okay, tanks: side-saddle is fine for these. They're capable of withstanding many times the impact of most any automotive fuel tank.
'06 GMC C2500HD RCLB gasser 4.10:1, 4L80E, custom camshaft
'84 Trans Am 6.2 diesel, 700R-4, custom Class-3 receiver
'69 F350 dually. GM 6.2 diesel, turbo, 700R-4, NP208 all pending.
I live in the Disneyland Resort District in Anaheim. All the Taxi and Tour Busses in this area are required to run on CNG or propane. There are 2 stations, including a Valero Gas Station on the corner that sells Compressed Natural Gas and also a Propane Fuel Station. It uses any credit card.
I am considering buying a $26,000.00 Honda Civic LNG car for 38 "mpg" and up to $7500.00 in rebates for clean air from the State of California. We'll use it for toodling around town.
The GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent) is $1.28 per gallon of Natural Gas. You can even refuel it at home with a conversion unit.
For right around $15,000.00...OmiTek can convert my F250 6.0 diesel to a full Natural Gas powered vehicle. They claim fuel cost saving pays for the system in a year. Hmmmm!
* This post was
edited 04/18/12 10:18pm by fordsooperdooty *
My posts shouldn't be taken for factual data. They are purely fictional, for entertainment purposes and should not be constituted as actually related to scientific, technical, engineering, legal, spiritual or practical advice. Amen.
If you actually do the cost benefit math - these cng rigs can be substantially cheaper to own over a gas rig for fleet due the cost difference of the fuel combined with the increase service mileage potential.
ALL of us will be dead and buried long before it is retailed on mass to the public!
What needs to be done first is....
Washington's Lobbyists working for the companies that sell gasoline and diesel need to be eliminated!
The only way those same companies will introduce Natural Gas on mass to the public is through legislation and/or regulation....
Hang on, sorry, I apoligise, I forgot....in the USA, Obama haters think regulation is some kind of 'pinko plot'....so be it, no Natural Gas then, just Gasoline and Diesel for the general public forever now and beyond!
Of course UPS for one loves Natural Gas, they claim all the investment back as a tax break and can scream out, that they are "greener" then the other couirer/s on the block!
Chevrolet Silverado 1500 LTZ 2007 (new shape)
4x4 Crew Cab VORTEC MAX (L76) 6.0L V8 4L70E 4.10 axle
factory NHT Max Trailering Package.
2010 Coachmen Freedom Express 280 RLS
"...a Waldorf Salad?, sorry we are fresh out of Waldorfs!".......BASIL FAWLTY.
eye8Ubutler wrote: This thread is a great topic....
Washington's Lobbyists working for the companies that sell gasoline and diesel need to be eliminated!
psst....Big oil owns big gas. fuel will never be cheap whether it's liquid or CNG since the players stay the same.
Exxon, Shell, BP all have subsidaries in the marcellus/utica play and are buying up the some local companies already in the area. Local leasing companies are buying and selling leases to investors and other cooutries; a japanese hedge fund owns 25% of the leases in one township.
This whole drill here drill now ploy is a joke. these comapnies will sit on gas until it makes sense to sell and will ship globally. In the meantime they'll buy the politicians for favorable legislation; just ask any local twp supervior what they think of PA's overreaching zoning restrictions.
Get used to CNG vehicles. They are a growing market that will not be limited to fleets as public filling stations are built.
The lower fuel cost, cleaner emissions, and extended maintenance intervals will sell these vehicles as soon as enough filling stations are built. The lack of infrastructure is the only thing holding them back at the moment.
We are seeing small business owners lining up to buy CNG vehicles in Shreveport since there are a few public filling stations there. And the factory equipped trucks are not readily available yet.
Guess I don't know a lot about it but around where I live all homes are heated by natural gas. Why couldn't they retrofit a station at your house where you could fill your vehicle? The infrastructure is there already it would seem to me.
so I'll just bail out while I can. (oh they are gutless and run out of fuel before you find a station and you'll never recoup the up front cost, IMO)
I would never do such a thing....well......at least to you. 
) and owned your own pumping station, how would "the man" know it had no road tax on it? You just put a tap line on your house line to your pumping station and in your truck it goes. 
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