You covered just about everything -- even anticipating questions, like where you store your memory foam mattress. About the mattress -- it sounds as though you have sheets, etc, that stay attached to it, is that right?
The cabinets in the View/Navion through 2010 are very nice. WGO changed them in 2011. Your cabinets should have the 'push-to-lock' knobs on them. I wish more mfrs would use them. LTV still does, but I'm not aware of any others offhand.
Good info on the HVAC. Would it be accurate to say that the A/C can maintain about a 20 degree temp difference, inside to outside?
From reading the the View/Navion group I know the suspension mods are popular, especially on the older Sprinter with the I5 engine. Most people seem to think the suspension on the newer Sprinter is greatly improved, but apparently there's room for more. So no degradation in the ride with the thicker anti-sway bar? That's good. At some point (well beyond what most people would install) a sway bar can become so rigid that it essentially eliminates any 'independent' movement of the tires (of course a solid rear axle isn't independent but there is some independent motion). I'll probably do the same with whatever rig we get. The less body roll the better as long as the ride quality can be maintained.
Thank you for the kind words.
To address the above post:
Memory foam mattress -- yes, the sheets are already on the mattress, and stay on the mattress when we stow it. The pillows and blanket are in the overhead cabinet above the bed, so I can completely prepare the bed for sleeping in just about fifteen seconds, and never even have to move my feet.
The cabinets do indeed have the push-lock knobs. The cabinets/knobs seem solid, and have a very nice finish to them. That, and the modern design, gives the inside a more "upscale" look than most other small MH's that we've seen.
I would say that the A/C maintains about 20-22 degree difference in air temps during the hot Texas summers.
There is room for suspension mods, but that is the same with any vehicle, even Corvettes. From what I can tell, most people do not change their suspension, but a fair amount do something for the low-speed side-to-side sway. No, there is no degredation of the ride or the handling with the addition of a thicker rear swaybar, although there is a person here who will tell you the opposite. As it turns out, this person has an incorrect setup anyway. IOW, it's not recommended to add multiple mods, as you end up with "overkill", so to speak (and as you allude to). Some owners add better rear shocks, and some add Timbrens. We chose the swaybar as it is very easy for one person to do. It's a bolt-in (six bolts) process that takes about ten minutes, once you are under the rear of the rig with the proper wrenches. By the time we made the turns to drive out of our subdivision, we knew that the new swaybar had made a great improvement in the sway. But don't feel that you have to do this. The View handles just great at higher speeds with the stock swaybar, so you may well not feel the need to switch.
As for videos that state what makes any particular brand better than another -- I've not ever seen any from the manufacturer, but I've seen a few on the internet from a dealer that might have been Lichtsinn (sp?). I won't say anything about a brand that I don't own, but I can tell you why we went with the Winnebago brand. Winne builds a very solid product. They have been doing so for decades, and will be doing so for many years to come. Other makes have come and gone, but Winne has stood the test of time and the vagaries of the American economy. There is also a fair number of Winne dealers across the country too. Yes, one can spend more money for a brand that might be thought of to produce a more sturdy product, but you know what? - Winne's are built solid, and don't fall apart. There are two Winnebagos in the family, so we know this from experience. I know there are more expensive Sprinter-based MH's out there, but even though we can afford any of them, I would not purchase one as we would not get anything extra over a View that would be valuable to us.
Your mileage may vary, of course....
Man I love those push-lock knobs! There's an example of something that many people either don't think about or don't care about but they are worth a lot to me. I recall a post over on the View-Navion Yahoo group by a guy who actually retrofitted all of his cabinets (and drawers too IIRC) with those locks. The locks were fairly reasonable, but the labor and time required was excessive. I would not want to do that myself.
The cabinets that WGO used up through 2010 are very nice indeed -- they remind me of what's in the LTV Unity. IMO WGO should have stuck with them.
I recall the great anti-sway bar discussion a while back -- I don't want to restart that, especially not on this thread. I'll only say that under certain circumstances, if an anti-sway bar is too thick/stiff, when the vehicle goes over a bump (or pothole) with just the tires on one side it will transfer more of that motion to the other side than if there were no bar at all, or a thinner one. The difference is probably more noticeable with vehicles that have independent suspension. A vehicle with a solid rear axle is not very independent to begin with. Anyway, that is the only potential drawback that I'm aware of. Everything else is positive -- more stability in crosswinds, corners, and when passing (or being passed by) semis, etc.
I like your defense of WGO. I agree that they make a good rig, and they've been around over 50 years so they aren't going anywhere. The same might be said of THOR. THOR itself hasn't been in existence as long as WGO, but I think they are the largest mfr of RVs (not that that necessarily means anything positive) and they also make ambulances, buses, etc, which gives them some stability in a weak economy. They have a pretty good dealer network as well. I must admit, as much as I like the View/Navion, if money were no object I would get the LTV Unity. I'm not saying it's a slam-dunk, but the Unity is also very well built and it has some interesting floorplans -- the Murphy Bed (MB) and Island Bed (IB). We would chose the latter because we want an additional bed for a 3rd person. Since we plan to carry an Enduro/dual-sport motorcycle on a hitch carrier, we like the fact that the IB does not have the rear slide that the Profile/iQ has -- both for convenience and the added OCCC in the rear.
Back in the real world, while we could write a check for the Unity, it is just far more than we ever planned to spend when we first started our research about 3 years ago. I can certainly see paying the premium for the Sprinter chassis, but when the cost of admission goes over $100K, that's just too much (for us).
So I guess that brings us back to where we started -- the View/Navion, with the addition of the THOR sisters as competition.
2) Good point about the fittings -- I suppose that's related to the 'continuous vs. spliced' wiring question. The PC video shows semi-rigid plastic tubing which I believe is replacing copper in most RVs. PC's point was that the plastic tubing can become kinked if bent into too tight a radius, but I would think that as long as the mfr is careful to keep all bends gradual it would be ok, and as you say, less likely to leak. I'm not familiar with the tubing but I wonder if there is a concern that it might develop a kink after it's installed and out of sight?
3) Of the three things I mentioned, the treated plywood sub-floor might be the most important, but without knowing what most mfrs use it's hard to say. One thing is for sure, treated plywood is better that particle or wafer board in that application (if any mfrs are still using that).
Regarding the plumbing, pretty much everybody has gone to Pex plumbing which is easy to work with and virtually indestructible from freezing. The fittings will fail before the pipe does. My Navion has a lot of gentle sweeps where is can be done and then right angle fittings for sharp turns. It did have to have a leak repaired under warranty which was a fitting that needed tightening in the snake pit under the shower pan.
You can get a good idea of how well they do things like plumbing and wiring by looking behind the cabinetry (pull drawers out) and under dinettes and things. One brand of RV I looked at looked as if the seatbelt cutouts on the plywood under the dinette cushions was done with a knife and fork. If the production involved cutting corners (not using a template or a hole saw) where else have they cut corners that I couldn't see?
The PC thing with the plywood floor vs other stuff is interesting. Ron Dittmer's PC has what looks to be OSB for the subfloor and I have read elsewhere that PC was saying something different from what they advertised regarding the floor.
The very nice thing about the LTV RVs which I haven't seen brought up is the house appears to be all molded fiberglass. I am not sure if it is monolithic like Coachhouse (1 piece) but the seams on a multi piece molded glass RV would be easy to keep sealed. This mean no luan/whatever/foam substrate and no danger of delamination in the event of a water leak. I think they use conventional fiberglass bats too which will dry out if they get wet. I would think the molded glass coach body would be something one would consider as a big plus when looking at a "B+" type RV and quite possibly justify the higher price of entry.
I haven't really said much about our 2012 LTV Serenity, prefer leaving "sales pitches" to sales folks and RV decisions to those paying. However we selected the Serenity after looking at a variety of sprinter based Cs. Watched the market for years wondering if anyone would make a lower profile coach to match the Serenity, some are close but no one under 10 ' but the Serenity. Because the Serenity is hard to find we only had a chance to go through one this February. After spending 7 years driving 65,000 miles , across the country(including major cities) we had a good idea what were our future needs. After spending 4 hours thoroughly going through the Serenity it was an easy decision between it and other sprinter Cs. We don't need slides, we don't travel with our Grandkids or other family members, we like the handling characteristics, and when we examined the interior construction we were sold(but not at that time nor with the dealer where we were). It's prewired for solar and satellite, the cabinets and utilization of space is superb, is has little things you don't think about like a valve and tube on the water system which allows you to winterized the water system with little effort. The unit we bought didn't have a mascerator(option) so when we decided to add one exactly like the option, I called the factory, they told me it was prewired, sent me pictures of the installation and offered to "walk me through the installation". Yes it is expensive but we consider it well worth it.
2) Good point about the fittings -- I suppose that's related to the 'continuous vs. spliced' wiring question. The PC video shows semi-rigid plastic tubing which I believe is replacing copper in most RVs. PC's point was that the plastic tubing can become kinked if bent into too tight a radius, but I would think that as long as the mfr is careful to keep all bends gradual it would be ok, and as you say, less likely to leak. I'm not familiar with the tubing but I wonder if there is a concern that it might develop a kink after it's installed and out of sight?
3) Of the three things I mentioned, the treated plywood sub-floor might be the most important, but without knowing what most mfrs use it's hard to say. One thing is for sure, treated plywood is better that particle or wafer board in that application (if any mfrs are still using that).
Regarding the plumbing, pretty much everybody has gone to Pex plumbing which is easy to work with and virtually indestructible from freezing. The fittings will fail before the pipe does. My Navion has a lot of gentle sweeps where is can be done and then right angle fittings for sharp turns. It did have to have a leak repaired under warranty which was a fitting that needed tightening in the snake pit under the shower pan.
You can get a good idea of how well they do things like plumbing and wiring by looking behind the cabinetry (pull drawers out) and under dinettes and things. One brand of RV I looked at looked as if the seatbelt cutouts on the plywood under the dinette cushions was done with a knife and fork. If the production involved cutting corners (not using a template or a hole saw) where else have they cut corners that I couldn't see?
The PC thing with the plywood floor vs other stuff is interesting. Ron Dittmer's PC has what looks to be OSB for the subfloor and I have read elsewhere that PC was saying something different from what they advertised regarding the floor.
The very nice thing about the LTV RVs which I haven't seen brought up is the house appears to be all molded fiberglass. I am not sure if it is monolithic like Coachhouse (1 piece) but the seams on a multi piece molded glass RV would be easy to keep sealed. This mean no luan/whatever/foam substrate and no danger of delamination in the event of a water leak. I think they use conventional fiberglass bats too which will dry out if they get wet. I would think the molded glass coach body would be something one would consider as a big plus when looking at a "B+" type RV and quite possibly justify the higher price of entry.
"A knife and fork" -- I like that!
Interesting that the PC video may not be an accurate representation of their construction techniques -- at least WRT the sub-floor. I suppose it's possible that they use different materials in different models -- or that they changed their construction methods/materials but neglected to produce a new video to reflect the changes.
Tell me more about "molded fiberglass". How does it differ from the methods used by most other mfrs? I'm familiar with the one-piece Coach House shell, but I thought just about all other mfrs use the same basic 'vacu-bond' system. What makes the seams on a multi-piece molded fiberglass RV easier to seal?
I really don't care for conventional fiberglass insulation -- it may dry out if it gets wet but it will permanently lose a great deal of it's R-value. The main benefit of fiberglass insulation is that it's inexpensive -- I'll take foam insulation any day. I just spoke with Mark at LTV on Wednesday. He said they use block foam insulation in the walls, floor, and roof (which seems to be pretty standard) and fiberglass up front. I didn't have a chance to ask him why they do not use block foam everywhere. He said the walls are 2" thick but he didn't know the R-value. Most foam is R6 to R7 per inch though.
applegater wrote: I haven't really said much about our 2012 LTV Serenity, prefer leaving "sales pitches" to sales folks and RV decisions to those paying. However we selected the Serenity after looking at a variety of sprinter based Cs. Watched the market for years wondering if anyone would make a lower profile coach to match the Serenity, some are close but no one under 10 ' but the Serenity. Because the Serenity is hard to find we only had a chance to go through one this February. After spending 7 years driving 65,000 miles , across the country(including major cities) we had a good idea what were our future needs. After spending 4 hours thoroughly going through the Serenity it was an easy decision between it and other sprinter Cs. We don't need slides, we don't travel with our Grandkids or other family members, we like the handling characteristics, and when we examined the interior construction we were sold(but not at that time nor with the dealer where we were). It's prewired for solar and satellite, the cabinets and utilization of space is superb, is has little things you don't think about like a valve and tube on the water system which allows you to winterized the water system with little effort. The unit we bought didn't have a mascerator(option) so when we decided to add one exactly like the option, I called the factory, they told me it was prewired, sent me pictures of the installation and offered to "walk me through the installation". Yes it is expensive but we consider it well worth it.
We like the Serenity a lot. Unfortunately, since I'm 6'2" it's too short for me. I couldn't stand up in the shower.
The pre-wiring for the Macerator pump and solar panels is a big plus, because those are two things we're interested in.
It's a shame there just isn't enough head room for me.
Tell me more about "molded fiberglass". How does it differ from the methods used by most other mfrs? I'm familiar with the one-piece Coach House shell, but I thought just about all other mfrs use the same basic 'vacu-bond' system. What makes the seams on a multi-piece molded fiberglass RV easier to seal?
Here is real high level description of how molded fiberglass works. It is much like a jello mold in which one first sprays gel coat (kinda like paint) and then you can either hand lay fiberglass mat/cloth and/or use a device called a chopper gun to spray a mix of glass/resin into the mold which is then rolled out.
On a monolithic structure like a Coachhouse the mold is likely a multi-piece which is disassembled from around the finished part after it has cured.
On something like the LTV the individual sides, roof, cap, and tail are likely molded in single piece molds to e=render individual parts. I am assuming this because of the shape of it. I doesn't look slab sided like most RVs.
A multi piece molded glass structure would be put together much like a plastic model. It is usually done with on part overlapping the other and adhesive being put between them. For extra strength you can hand lay a strip of fiberglass cloth or mat inside at the seams.
The individual parts come out of the mold thicker than the fiberglass of your vacu-bonded RV panel which relies on the luan/foam substrate to keep its shape. The vacu-bonded panels are bought and then cut to shape to fit the RV. Super easy with minimal tooling. A molded RV required lots of tooling investment (the molds) and if the truck manufacturer makes a significant change your house design now doesn't fit and you have to re-tool.
The big deal on sealing is on the vacu-bonded stuff you need to also have no water getting between the fiberglass/luan/foam combination. The is the kiss of death known as delamination which lots of folks post about here. The fiberglass itself on vacubonding has almost zip inherent strength (unlike molded which is thick). The joins of the panels must be sealed externally fiberglass to fiberglass and done well to keep this from happening
BTW you may ask "How does one get the molds?" That in itself is a big process. What one does is make a "plug" which is a true to shape on the outside replica of what the final product is to look like. One makes it all nice and pretty and then lays the gel coat/fiberglass all over it. When cured the fiberglass you have laid on it is the mold.
This is a gross simplification but I hope it helps. I used to be involved with this process years ago with fiberglass car bodies so I know it pretty well.
Tell me more about "molded fiberglass". How does it differ from the methods used by most other mfrs? I'm familiar with the one-piece Coach House shell, but I thought just about all other mfrs use the same basic 'vacu-bond' system. What makes the seams on a multi-piece molded fiberglass RV easier to seal?
Here is real high level description of how molded fiberglass works. It is much like a jello mold in which one first sprays gel coat (kinda like paint) and then you can either hand lay fiberglass mat/cloth and/or use a device called a chopper gun to spray a mix of glass/resin into the mold which is then rolled out.
On a monolithic structure like a Coachhouse the mold is likely a multi-piece which is disassembled from around the finished part after it has cured.
On something like the LTV the individual sides, roof, cap, and tail are likely molded in single piece molds to e=render individual parts. I am assuming this because of the shape of it. I doesn't look slab sided like most RVs.
A multi piece molded glass structure would be put together much like a plastic model. It is usually done with on part overlapping the other and adhesive being put between them. For extra strength you can hand lay a strip of fiberglass cloth or mat inside at the seams.
The individual parts come out of the mold thicker than the fiberglass of your vacu-bonded RV panel which relies on the luan/foam substrate to keep its shape. The vacu-bonded panels are bought and then cut to shape to fit the RV. Super easy with minimal tooling. A molded RV required lots of tooling investment (the molds) and if the truck manufacturer makes a significant change your house design now doesn't fit and you have to re-tool.
The big deal on sealing is on the vacu-bonded stuff you need to also have no water getting between the fiberglass/luan/foam combination. The is the kiss of death known as delamination which lots of folks post about here. The fiberglass itself on vacubonding has almost zip inherent strength (unlike molded which is thick). The joins of the panels must be sealed externally fiberglass to fiberglass and done well to keep this from happening
BTW you may ask "How does one get the molds?" That in itself is a big process. What one does is make a "plug" which is a true to shape on the outside replica of what the final product is to look like. One makes it all nice and pretty and then lays the gel coat/fiberglass all over it. When cured the fiberglass you have laid on it is the mold.
This is a gross simplification but I hope it helps. I used to be involved with this process years ago with fiberglass car bodies so I know it pretty well.
Thanks for the crash course Dakzuki!
Why can't the vacu-bonded fiberglass be thicker, like multi-piece molded fiberglass?
Intuitively, I'd think that the fewer seams there are the better, that the multi-piece would be more prone to leaks. Why are the vacu-bonded panels more difficult to seal properly?
Tell me more about "molded fiberglass". How does it differ from the methods used by most other mfrs? I'm familiar with the one-piece Coach House shell, but I thought just about all other mfrs use the same basic 'vacu-bond' system. What makes the seams on a multi-piece molded fiberglass RV easier to seal?
Here is real high level description of how molded fiberglass works. It is much like a jello mold in which one first sprays gel coat (kinda like paint) and then you can either hand lay fiberglass mat/cloth and/or use a device called a chopper gun to spray a mix of glass/resin into the mold which is then rolled out.
On a monolithic structure like a Coachhouse the mold is likely a multi-piece which is disassembled from around the finished part after it has cured.
On something like the LTV the individual sides, roof, cap, and tail are likely molded in single piece molds to e=render individual parts. I am assuming this because of the shape of it. I doesn't look slab sided like most RVs.
A multi piece molded glass structure would be put together much like a plastic model. It is usually done with on part overlapping the other and adhesive being put between them. For extra strength you can hand lay a strip of fiberglass cloth or mat inside at the seams.
The individual parts come out of the mold thicker than the fiberglass of your vacu-bonded RV panel which relies on the luan/foam substrate to keep its shape. The vacu-bonded panels are bought and then cut to shape to fit the RV. Super easy with minimal tooling. A molded RV required lots of tooling investment (the molds) and if the truck manufacturer makes a significant change your house design now doesn't fit and you have to re-tool.
The big deal on sealing is on the vacu-bonded stuff you need to also have no water getting between the fiberglass/luan/foam combination. The is the kiss of death known as delamination which lots of folks post about here. The fiberglass itself on vacubonding has almost zip inherent strength (unlike molded which is thick). The joins of the panels must be sealed externally fiberglass to fiberglass and done well to keep this from happening
BTW you may ask "How does one get the molds?" That in itself is a big process. What one does is make a "plug" which is a true to shape on the outside replica of what the final product is to look like. One makes it all nice and pretty and then lays the gel coat/fiberglass all over it. When cured the fiberglass you have laid on it is the mold.
This is a gross simplification but I hope it helps. I used to be involved with this process years ago with fiberglass car bodies so I know it pretty well.
Thanks for the crash course Dakzuki!
Why can't the vacu-bonded fiberglass be thicker, like multi-piece molded fiberglass?
Intuitively, I'd think that the fewer seams there are the better, that the multi-piece would be more prone to leaks. Why are the vacu-bonded panels more difficult to seal properly?
Do any RV mfrs use the multi-piece method?
Fewer seams is better (like Chinook or Coachhouse) but also more costly to tool up for and build. The LTV is multi piece molded as far as I can tell which in theory should be a bit easier.
The reason vacuum bonded glass isn't thicker is because it is a cost saving process in the first place...that and as long as the glass stays stuck to the substrate you are in good shape. It's all about the money anyway.
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