One of my daughters rescued a pointer-and ? mix as a puppy and named her Daisy. Daisy was friendly to humans and other animals alike - except: once in a while, without warning or provocation, she's attack another dog who had "done wrong" in HER eyes. She bit a dog who looked at "HER dead fly". Almost every dog in the extended family bore scars from encounters with Daisy. Then my daughter lost her job and needed to move in with us temporarily. Daisy nailed my ACD Jack for sniffing "HER dead seagull" that had washed up on shore - and that's when I knew Daisy and I had to reach an understanding.
I am the Alpha Female - and I own a shock collar. For about a week, Daisy wore the shock collar and any time I saw the slightest hint of dominant behavior towards my dogs - she got zapped and I'd say "don't bite my dogs". It worked - Daisy lived with us for months and never bit anyone. But it worked because I'm pretty good at reading dog body language - timing is everything when you're using a shock collar.
Fast forward - daughter gets a job/gets married/gets another puppy. Now that Daisy is no longer living with ME - "don't bite" is null. Twice, the puppy gets stitches from Daisy-bites. Two years later, a new baby arrives on scene. Daisy is fine, until the tyke begins to crawl and invade her space: then she starts to growl at the baby. It was at that point, that my daughter knew she had a ticking time bomb on her hands - and made the decision to rehome Daisy. She ran an ad, saying that Daisy HAD to live with adults and no other dogs - and remarkably, a woman who ran a home for physically and mentally disabled adults took her and was thrilled to death to get such a sweet, well-mannered, well-trained dog!
So - I think a shock collar is what is needed - assuming that someone in that family can read dog language and stop the aggression before it starts. Working with a behaviorist would be VERY important!
And if your son doesn't want to do that - then put the collar on HIS neck and push the button until he gets rid of the dangerous dog!!!!! Because this dog IS dangerous - I offer than 99% of the dogs out there can chastise a puppy without truly hurting it - let alone killing it.
Also - just a random thought: what if this dog isn't completely neutered?? I'd like to think if it had an undescended testicle, that a Vet would have neutered it properly - but too many male hormones running amok might explain the deadly reaction to a male puppy??
Deb and Ed M wrote: but too many male hormones running amok might explain the deadly reaction to a male puppy??
Given the age of the puppy killed, I doubt neutering (or lack thereof) would be a factor. As Code2High said, a stable adult dog will (and should) correct inappropriate puppy behavior. But to do real harm, let alone kill one, is way, way outside the range of normal behavior. That this dog so over-reacted sends up very serious warning flags. It's also an indication to me that this may be a problem that all the training in the world may not help.
Me and the DH
Two boys and two dogs (and two cats who prefer to stay home)
2008 Forest River Georgetown 350DS (bunkhouse model)
2001 Honda CR-V
Probably the worst part of this scenario is that the dog has never, to my knowledge, growled at or threatened any other human. He even lives with an older, smaller female Pug that is sometime aggressive toward the Golden, but he never reacts. The puppy was attacked and killed for trying to be friendly and playful. The Golden's unpredictable reactions are a lot of the reason I am most concerned.
2005 F250 Crew Cab LWB Power Stroke, 2007 Montana 3500RL Fifth Wheel,Honda EU3000IS, Twin Honda EU2000i's, S&W security system
Male-Male and Female-Female combinations tend to spark and to make dog aggression worse. No excuses being made here, just observations many have made.
The fact that the younger dog was an adolescent and male probably factored into this situation.
The reactions this golden had in two different episode were extreme. As Deb said 99% (I think 99.99%) of adult dogs correct situations without serious injury.
I admire those of you (Cat, Susan and others) who deal with aggressive dogs at home. I have little tolerance, probably because I have to deal with it so much in my day job. I don't have the patience to deal with it at home too.
Doug & Sandy
Jill (11yr old Golden)& Charmin (16 yr old something)
Henry NOW a camping cat
2008 Southwind
2009 Honda CRV
Might want to suggest to the dog's owner to have his thyroid levels checked. A friend has had two dogs' personalities go back to normal after appropriate treatment. One dog had become unexpectably dog-aggressive. Here is a link from an expert in thyroid disease in dogs
Intact male dogs (if he wasn't fully neutered) are more inclined to violence and that's well known. But dogs are a pack animal and the male in a pack is involved with the puppies. If males were programmed to kill puppies, the species wouldn't do well, so they aren't. Babies in every social species get more tolerance than older animals. Eventually, the adolescent males in the pack are chased off, but if you're dealing with an animal that starts out at killing, you aren't dealing with a normal intact male. Even the behavior with the female is off for that..... most intact males are very interactive with females, rather than aggressive. They flirt, and they put up with all kinds of abuse from the girls, because in mating, that's part of the process. Even if it was something to do with that, this is still a vast over-reaction to the situation, and it's indicative of a dog that isn't stable. Fixing a dog at his age might reduce some of the tendencies in that situation, but it isn't a guarantee that further violence will not occur. Male dogs fixed later in life have already developed their patterns and responses to a large degree. Neutering helps by bringing the testosterone down, but it doesn't change conditioned responses, and it doesn't instantly render an animal stable.
I think that many dogs that have bitten can be rehabbed and go on to be stable and safe family members. It depends a lot on what the situation was that resulted in the bite. And it is hard for rescues because of the liability issue. Plus, it generally costs money to rehab, so you get into the choice of "do we take this cash and save ten dogs, or rehab this one and let the other nine die?" But many people who own a dog that's bitten and are committed to the dog, if they aren't forced to give the dog up, do work with the dog, get help with the dog and make some improvements to where the dog can remain safely in the family. Others put the dog down or dump it at the shelter or on rescue, and while I don't appreciate the dumping part, if they don't have the skills and committment to work with the dog, the dog shouldn't be in the home. Certainly an unstable dog shouldn't be in a home with vulnerable people, be they old or young.
A lot of dogs with aggression, possession, or dominance issues with other dogs can also be rehabbed, given the right kind of help, the right kind of follow-up, and the right living situation. That also depends on what the cause is, what the triggers are, and what the level of aggression is.
I know someone who took a DA dog that had been in a shelter for a month, in boarding for four, gone into a home and been aggressive with the adopter's dogs. My friend took that dog and worked with him. By that time, he was behaving very aggressively toward every dog he saw. This person has two pits and a chi, so she was a very busy girl doing crate rotations in the initial stages. Two weeks later Eli was perfectly social off-leash with her dogs and neighbor dogs, and now he's looking for a home as a dog friendly dog. It depends on what the reason is that the dog became aggressive, and the skill level of the person doing the rehab. Again, there is a cost and resources issue, and it is often hard to say at the outset what you'll get in the end in terms of a stable dog that can safely live in a family and not be a menace if it gets out of the yard or off its leash. In rescue, that's an issue and those dogs are often put down. The one my friend took was very lucky.
In a home situation, many people will try to work with the dog and that's fine if they have a safe living situation for the dog and the resources and committment to do what needs to be done. Some dogs may also be problematic in certain living situations, and not in others, and may not be dangerous to the public (canine or human) at large.
But this isn't an "aggressive" dog. This isn't a dog that "fights" over things. This isn't a dog that "acts dominant" and ends up in a fight or even injuring another dog. This is a dog that is lethal. This is a dog that without provocation or history of conflict, killed a puppy before anyone could stop him. That is NOT a little problem or a "normal" dog behavior problem.
In rehabbing a dog, you have to put the dog in situations where the problem occurs, in order to teach the dog to behave differently. How exactly do you do that with a dog that's just perfectly behaved until he turns around and kills another dog? Do you go get another shorkie and put a shock collar on him and hope you can stop him in time if he attacks? I don't think so. But short of that, and no, you can't use a muzzle because those will change behavior, you're never going to know if or when a problem is going to occur.
In fact, even if you did do that and nothing happened, or you corrected the dog and stopped him, there is no assurance that he won't repeat the behavior under some circumstances at another time. Training and rehabbing is a process, not an instant fix. It takes a lot of repetition and even then, things can go wrong. And if and when a problem does occur, we have to remember that past is usually prologue, and the problem is not likely to be a small one. The first time it happens, the owner tends to get a pass to a degree because the behavior couldn't be predicted. The second time? Not so much.
And again, because of the types of issues that could be involved (dominance, possession possibly of the female?) you never know when some human of whatever age is going to push the wrong button and end up in the hospital, maimed for life. Dealing with a dominant dog is one thing. Dealing with a dominant dog that goes from lying on the porch to lethal in a second or less, is a whole different problem.
I love dogs. My life is a lot about dogs. They, along with the cats and the bunnies, are my friends, part of my family, and they are my teachers and my guides in life in many areas. But this is not an okay situation. This is a walking time-bomb. Having him in a house with two small children is foolish. Assuming that because it was a dog he attacked before, his instability won't show up with a human in the future is reckless. Placing a dog like this is imposssible unless you lie (which for all we know, the last owners may have done) and there just aren't a lot of options, unless he turns out to have some medical thing going on that can actually be fixed. The stakes are simply too high.
susan
Fuzzy Wuzzy was a wabbit, Fuzzy Wuzzy had a dandelion habit! RIP little Wuz... don't go far.
Code2High wrote: This is a dog that is lethal. This is a dog that without provocation or history of conflict, killed a puppy before anyone could stop him. That is NOT a little problem or a "normal" dog behavior problem.
Well said!
Maybe the problem is that the dog is a GOLDEN Retriever - that icon of sweetness and gentleness and cooperation. I mean, not trusting a Goldie is like not trusting Santa Claus. But this dog is displaying dominant behavior that's over-the-top for ANY breed - at what point does he look at the kids and think "You need to be submissive to ME". Happens all the time - you hear the distraught parents saying "But Fido NEVER did anything like THAT before". Nope - all it takes is once.
Prayers for the OP - that they can help their son see his dilemma.....
Code2High wrote: This is a dog that is lethal. This is a dog that without provocation or history of conflict, killed a puppy before anyone could stop him. That is NOT a little problem or a "normal" dog behavior problem.
Well said!
Maybe the problem is that the dog is a GOLDEN Retriever - that icon of sweetness and gentleness and cooperation. I mean, not trusting a Goldie is like not trusting Santa Claus. But this dog is displaying dominant behavior that's over-the-top for ANY breed - at what point does he look at the kids and think "You need to be submissive to ME". Happens all the time - you hear the distraught parents saying "But Fido NEVER did anything like THAT before". Nope - all it takes is once.
Prayers for the OP - that they can help their son see his dilemma.....
I strongly suspect that in most of those cases where Fido "never did anything like that before" or "but he was just a big baby!" there were indications of trouble in the past that, as in this case, the owner did not recognize as the red flags that they were, or was in denial about.
Prayers indeed... this is a hard situation, and especially for the OP who has concerns and isn't in a position to do anything about them, short of something that could create a major rift in the family.
A report to CPS should be made anonymously if the OP's son doesn't see sense. It sounds like enough people witnessed this so it wouldn't be clear who made the report. The OP's grandchildren's lives are in danger.
I wonder if the owners of the puppy the dog killed are making a complaint- in my former neighborhood, a rotweiler that was aggressive to other dogs in the neighborhood was removed when the owner of a dog the rottie almost killed went to the police.
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