Anyone blaming this problem on piss poor dumb a$$ techs are not doing themselves any favors.
On the one hand you say the 6.0 PoSD is just as good as the Duramax and the Cummins, except under all the preconditions you set forth that put the onus on someone or something else except the engine and its design.
This thing is going on 10 years since its inception and you still say the techs don't know how to work on it??? Give me a break. Does a competent tech cost any more to have in your shop than an incompetent one? I'm talking Ford dealers here. So you expect us to believe that in 10 years with all the problems ford has had with this thing that they haven't weeded out the nincompoops? They have supposedly spent a billion dollars on warranty work on this thing. Don't they use a flow chart to diagnose problems? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to use one of those. And I guess you know all the techs that work for ford since you have come up with a number, 1 in 4 or whatever that are truly qualified? LOL
Did you send out a test to all these techs and qualify them yourself? Or, how did you come up with the number? What special training do these techs get that make them superior?
* This post was
edited 06/05/12 10:14am by JPhelps *
Statistically speaking, each brand should have the same percentage of bad or under skilled techs shouldn't they?
I don't buy the theory that "bad" or poorly trained technicians are 100% to blame for the poor customer experience of the 6.0L. They certainly could have been a contributor to the early owners experiencing multiple problems, but I agree with JPhelps -- you'd think they would have figured things out by now.
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When I was a kid I was raised in a VW dealership. I can't tell you how many mechanics I have seen moved into a position that they had never been properly trained for that type of job. I was even moved to a/c installer on the line for new cars when I had no idea how it even worked. I have seen this type thing happen several times at different dealerships just because the mechanic had a general idea how something was supposed to work and still had no real training or proper tools because the dealership was to cheap to buy it. These tools are not given to the mechanics or dealer.
Even today at our local dealership we had a really good Diesel tech but had to buy his own computer and programs. He has since left for more pay and better benifits and we now have a guy that learned from him.
You will never convince me that some of our so called techs in dealerships know what they are doing and or not guessing what to try next.
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I don't have a dog in this argument, but from an outsider just reading these posts about diesels this is what I've noticed. Guys looking to by a 6.0 are always told that you need to do certain things to make it more reliable. But when someone posts a question about a 6.6 or 5.9-6.7, the answers are more about certain yrs to avoid for injectors or something that may be an issue , but theres no talk about upgrading parts on the chev or dodge to make it more reliable. I have also not read anything about massive warranty work for dodge or chevy. Not sure what to make of some of it, but the 6.0 seems to need parts replaced or certain parts need to be minitored more than the other tow brands.
How much of the negativity towards the 6.0 is from internet forum hype, I can't tell you. But why is this motor singled out more than any other diesel?
goducks10 wrote: I don't have a dog in this argument, but from an outsider just reading these posts about diesels this is what I've noticed. Guys looking to by a 6.0 are always told that you need to do certain things to make it more reliable. But when someone posts a question about a 6.6 or 5.9-6.7, the answers are more about certain yrs to avoid for injectors or something that may be an issue , but theres no talk about upgrading parts on the chev or dodge to make it more reliable. I have also not read anything about massive warranty work for dodge or chevy. Not sure what to make of some of it, but the 6.0 seems to need parts replaced or certain parts need to be minitored more than the other tow brands.
How much of the negativity towards the 6.0 is from internet forum hype, I can't tell you. But why is this motor singled out more than any other diesel?
Several factors.
There are more 6.0s out there than all the other makes (similar year) combined.
Ford was slow in getting fixes for the early problems out and let it mushroom.
Ford did nothing (or next to nothing) to stop the rampant warranty fraud and modding that ended up breaking parts they warranted and paid to fix.
There are many mods out there for performance reasons (because there is a big market) and many mods out there that are scams.
A few badly engineered Ford factory mods that ended up breaking things (opps).
Inability of techs to make the usual quick diagnosis of a very complex system. Lack of factory diagnostics software to facilitate this kind of work until too late.
Dumb design issues like wiring of insufficient grade / chafing issues.
Non factory "Fixes" that actually broke / caused more issues and required fixes on the fixes.
Rampant availability and willful use of unfit fuels like biodiesel for this engine which was only certified (belatedly) for B5 if the biodiesel fuel met specs.
Need I go on?
A rough guess suggest it takes about 2 to 3 years of on the job training to master the 6.0 alone for a technician --- unrealistic to expect 99% of the techs to be able to do that.
Bird Freak wrote: When I was a kid I was raised in a VW dealership. I can't tell you how many mechanics I have seen moved into a position that they had never been properly trained for that type of job. I was even moved to a/c installer on the line for new cars when I had no idea how it even worked. I have seen this type thing happen several times at different dealerships just because the mechanic had a general idea how something was supposed to work and still had no real training or proper tools because the dealership was to cheap to buy it. These tools are not given to the mechanics or dealer.
Even today at our local dealership we had a really good Diesel tech but had to buy his own computer and programs. He has since left for more pay and better benifits and we now have a guy that learned from him.
You will never convince me that some of our so called techs in dealerships know what they are doing and or not guessing what to try next.
From your description, it is clear you have not been near a modern service facility of a major auto maker in the past 10 years.
Every major manufacturer (GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.) equips their dealer facilities with diagnostics equipment that is connected to the factory in real time, and diagnostics beyond the simplest and most obvious cases are done by the technician working with the software.
Every single TSB is online, and instantly accessible as are many standardized test routines to determine fault.
No technician is expected to purchase these tools --- though some may elect to purchase tools like the Ford IDS (a simplified version of the full software suite).
It is patently impossible for a technician working with their own self purchased tools to do the job when:
Quote: 50 percent of car warranty costs are now related to electronics and their embedded software, costing automakers in the United States around $350 and European automakers 250 per vehicle in 2005.
and the average car now has 10 millions lines of source code.
Bird Freak wrote: When I was a kid I was raised in a VW dealership. I can't tell you how many mechanics I have seen moved into a position that they had never been properly trained for that type of job. I was even moved to a/c installer on the line for new cars when I had no idea how it even worked. I have seen this type thing happen several times at different dealerships just because the mechanic had a general idea how something was supposed to work and still had no real training or proper tools because the dealership was to cheap to buy it. These tools are not given to the mechanics or dealer.
Even today at our local dealership we had a really good Diesel tech but had to buy his own computer and programs. He has since left for more pay and better benifits and we now have a guy that learned from him.
You will never convince me that some of our so called techs in dealerships know what they are doing and or not guessing what to try next.
From your description, it is clear you have not been near a modern service facility of a major auto maker in the past 10 years.
Every major manufacturer (GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.) equips their dealer facilities with diagnostics equipment that is connected to the factory in real time, and diagnostics beyond the simplest and most obvious cases are done by the technician working with the software.
Every single TSB is online, and instantly accessible as are many standardized test routines to determine fault.
No technician is expected to purchase these tools --- though some may elect to purchase tools like the Ford IDS (a simplified version of the full software suite).
It is patently impossible for a technician working with their own self purchased tools to do the job when:
Quote: 50 percent of car warranty costs are now related to electronics and their embedded software, costing automakers in the United States around $350 and European automakers 250 per vehicle in 2005.
and the average car now has 10 millions lines of source code.
I never said anything about TSB's. And you are wrong about any automaker supplying equipment to the dealers. It is made available but the dealer has to purchase it. It is not given. I notice that you have no idea how deeply I am involved with the auto industry. I also have done projects for Ford Motor Co. I have to stay up to date on all the new cars and systems every year to keep up with the new power trains we install in rods and customs. It would be nice if you would get your facts straight before you post. You seem to have a habit just from my post of reading things in a post that are not there.
Some people just don't get it but like to act as if they do so I will end this here for me. Go ahead and blow your hot air.
goducks10 wrote: I don't have a dog in this argument, but from an outsider just reading these posts about diesels this is what I've noticed. Guys looking to by a 6.0 are always told that you need to do certain things to make it more reliable. But when someone posts a question about a 6.6 or 5.9-6.7, the answers are more about certain yrs to avoid for injectors or something that may be an issue , but theres no talk about upgrading parts on the chev or dodge to make it more reliable. I have also not read anything about massive warranty work for dodge or chevy. Not sure what to make of some of it, but the 6.0 seems to need parts replaced or certain parts need to be minitored more than the other tow brands.
How much of the negativity towards the 6.0 is from internet forum hype, I can't tell you. But why is this motor singled out more than any other diesel?
Spend a little time on a Cummins 6.7 forum and the common theme is: Soot clogging turbos/EGR./DPF, FAQ about performing deletes vs. sacrificing warrenty, head gasket issues, CEL's, improved filtration to prolong injector life, and if that ain't enough throw in the auto tranny issues as well.
The 6.0 basically needs the engine oil temp vs coolant temp delta to be monitored which the latest flash program will do for you. No extra gauges required although some do recommend the gauges.
ib516 wrote: you'd think they would have figured things out by now.
They did about 7 years ago according to company e-mails. LINK
It would appear some at Ford knew it was turd very early on. They purged ahead at all costs.
Almost the same pattern now with the CP4's only this time around the customer is replacing Navstar's deep pockets. And oh yeah notice how the VT365 is pretty reliable without a Ford tune on it
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