Road Phantom wrote: I spoke to someone at Dodge and was told that the new deisels in an effort to comply with EPA standards are only getting around 15 mpg hwy. I'm guessing the same must be true of Ford and Chevy. Has anyone with a 2012 experienced this dramatic loss in mpg?
My last deisel, a 2010 Dodge reg cab, 2wh dr, got 19 hwy and 14-15 city.
SCR and DEF lets you advance the timing and gives you a more agressive tune. That gets the heat up and gives you better mileage.
Lots of high teens and even VERY low 20's on the hiway at 55 mph.
Before DEF and SCR Cummins was king of mileage. After, Chevy and Ford took it away. If Dodge/Cummins ever goes DEF I think they will get their crown back. IMHO they are going to have to go there sooner or later. They will have to meet the new regs.
They are all pretty close in mileage even though Cummins is in last place.
They're already using DEF on the 4500/5500 cab/chassis trucks, have been for years now. Anyone know what the mileage is on those trucks? Of course, you have to account for much lower axle ratios and much heavier typical running weights of those commercial trucks....
Driving a semi for a living, my new '12 Freightliner has Detroit Diesel 13 L rated at 380 HP (wish it was 425, but that's another story) and a auto trans. It has DEF and though the current mileage is just over 20k, I'm ave 6.5- just over 7 mpg and it uses a tad over 7 gallons of DEF every 2600 miles. So in answer the OP question, DEF is the way to go and in doing so, MFR's have had to increase the ratings across the board of their engines due to the smog******that's required nowadays. The '07-'10 engines are the worst performers in the mpg group as the technology wasn't exactly up to speed.
Look at Ford's 6.0. A great motor aside from the fact of egr, inj and oil leak issues. It was brand new to the market and Ford maxed it out from the get go. Sure they had problems, and it bit Ford in the behind, but from that, they learned a great deal on meeting the emission requirements and the needs of people who demand the most from a diesel. Though they parted ways from Navistar, look what's going on w/ IH now. Their motors with NON DEF cannot meet emissions and are on the brink of God knows what.
So IMO, the Dodge person isn't up w/ what's going on w/ todays diesels as most are getting mid to upper teens to even low 20's MPG's on hiway and 9-12 towing some pretty hefty loads, and this is for ALL of them. MY '03 6.0 still gets upper teens- low 20's on hiway and 10 towing. Still has a oil drip, but runs fine.
More changes are coming down the pipeline for diesel emissions and my guess is that the mpg's seen today will still be about the same then just w/ more pollution items added and MFR's doing all they can to meet EPA requirements AND us, the lowly consumer who want a truck to tow our toys with.
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Why is the service life of a diesel now only 200-300k miles. I expect that and more out of my v10. What's the replacement cost of a diesel motor? $10-12k at 200k miles? Just seems that these vehicles may not have very long lives if in 10 years or so the motors need replaced. You will have a 10k repair on a 10k truck.
MPG? How about CPM? (Coat per mile) over 500k miles?
Thanks!
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jerem0621 wrote: Why is the service life of a diesel now only 200-300k miles. I expect that and more out of my v10. What's the replacement cost of a diesel motor? $10-12k at 200k miles? Just seems that these vehicles may not have very long lives if in 10 years or so the motors need replaced. You will have a 10k repair on a 10k truck.
MPG? How about CPM? (Coat per mile) over 500k miles?
Thanks!
Service life is defined by the weakest part that breaks often and costly enough for a commercial operator to throw in the towel and get a new one.
Most commercial shops have pretty high $$$$ cost of a day out of service for their trucks.
If you got $100,000 or often $200,000 of gear on a truck (not uncommon with high tech ambulances running $150,000 in upfits plus the cost of the vehicle), then the time out of service is critical.
It may only be a $50,000 truck, but the total all up cost can be $200,000 or more.
Then there is the wages and salaries of the team inside the vehicle --- if they don't have a back up the whole team is sitting.
That is why vehicles are retired when they become unreliable, not when their life is at an end.
Cause of unreliability or down days can be something as simple as a bad sensor(s), wiring, software bugs, emissions gear etc. and not the basic engine block.
Or, if the body rusts out after 200,000 miles, does it matter that the engine is still good?
What I am seeing out there is all the little things are going well before their time --- sensors going out of spec, actuators failing, wiring deteriorating, most recently, relays going funky... and software faults.
These components may be not costly, but their failure is often hard to diagnose, hard to repair, and often takes multiple trips to a shop.
Most shops (even dealers) are not equipped to handle the complexity.
So what you get is a lot of mis-repairs, and at the end of the day... a trade to someone else.
Add these problems up... and all the current generation will be pawned off to the third or fifth owner long before 200,000 miles life is up.
IMHO,a modern EPA 2010 diesel is really only good for top grade reliability for 150,000 miles --- then all the inevitable age and corrosion gremlins start to take their toll.
Now, with proper repair, the same engine can probably go 500,000 miles... but those who have the skill, time, and patience are a minority.
Replacement cost of a diesel motor is often irrelevant.
If the fault is in the sensors, wiring harness, ECM, software, and everything but the reman block (short or long), it often does nothing for the vehicle reliability to put in a reman engine.
FYI, I thumbnail the life of a basic diesel block EPA 2010 around 250 to 300,000 miles, regardless of make.
But the effective economic life of a EPA 2010 diesel for the trailer towing crowd who need pretty good reliability is likely 200,000 miles or 10 years (probably more a problem with age) before the electronics, and all the little widgets on it become a constant source of problems.
If the same diesel were taken care of by a top notch repair / service facility over its life, 500,000 miles is easy, 1,000,000 in non towing apps is possible.
But how many are out there?
* This post was
edited 06/27/12 09:59am by NewsW *
jerem0621 wrote: Why is the service life of a diesel now only 200-300k miles. I expect that and more out of my v10. What's the replacement cost of a diesel motor? $10-12k at 200k miles? Just seems that these vehicles may not have very long lives if in 10 years or so the motors need replaced. You will have a 10k repair on a 10k truck.
MPG? How about CPM? (Coat per mile) over 500k miles?
Thanks!
I figure the service life of a pick up is about 7 years. If I had the opportunity to sell my 2011 for 50,000 and buy a 2005 Dodge Chev or Ford that had never been driven for 10,000 I would keep what I have. So a motor in a pick up that is capable of 1,000,000 miles is of little more value to me than one that I could expect to get 200,000 miles out of.
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2003 Citation Supreme 34 RLTS
Your 2010 is the same as the 11 and 12's as far as emissions so your mileage will be the same as your 10.
2011.5 they went to 350hp/800tq.
As far as mileage Ford and GM get Apples to Apples HONEST HAND CALCULATED MILEAGE less than 1 mpg better than Cummins.
My truck see sig straight highway 17mpg.
2013 Cummins will be using DEF.
With the little difference in mileage stick with the most durable proven engine CUMMINS with a 350,000 mile rated engine, 100,000 more than Ford and GM FACT.
Apples to apples the RAM CUMMINS wil cost thousands less than Ford or GM.
Take a Longhorn for a spin, I did and bought it! Awesome truck.
Welcome back Franklinman. See you have a Ram this time. Didn't you have one the last time before it was traded? Anyway, has the cummins 6.7 been installed in a M-1 tank yet?
2012 F-350 King Ranch DRW
2008 Jayco Designer 35RLTS
Road Phantom wrote: I spoke to someone at Dodge and was told that the new deisels in an effort to comply with EPA standards are only getting around 15 mpg hwy. I'm guessing the same must be true of Ford and Chevy. Has anyone with a 2012 experienced this dramatic loss in mpg?
My last deisel, a 2010 Dodge reg cab, 2wh dr, got 19 hwy and 14-15 city.
SCR and DEF lets you advance the timing and gives you a more agressive tune. That gets the heat up and gives you better mileage.
Lots of high teens and even VERY low 20's on the hiway at 55 mph.
Before DEF and SCR Cummins was king of mileage. After, Chevy and Ford took it away. If Dodge/Cummins ever goes DEF I think they will get their crown back. IMHO they are going to have to go there sooner or later. They will have to meet the new regs.
They are all pretty close in mileage even though Cummins is in last place.
They're already using DEF on the 4500/5500 cab/chassis trucks, have been for years now. Anyone know what the mileage is on those trucks? Of course, you have to account for much lower axle ratios and much heavier typical running weights of those commercial trucks....
I don't SoCal but to me it's like apples and oranges. The tune is going to be different, from timing to fuel to HP and as you have stated the gears and load is going to be way different.
It's very close between all three right now and once Dodge gets on board with DEF it will be really close then. All three have reported high teens and very low twenties when held at 55 mph and highway miles.
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jerem0621 wrote: Why is the service life of a diesel now only 200-300k miles. I expect that and more out of my v10. What's the replacement cost of a diesel motor? $10-12k at 200k miles? Just seems that these vehicles may not have very long lives if in 10 years or so the motors need replaced. You will have a 10k repair on a 10k truck.
MPG? How about CPM? (Coat per mile) over 500k miles?
Thanks!
Cummins is rated at 350k and Ford and GM are 100k less.
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