ib516 wrote: Tow ratings are a little bit engineering, and a lot marketing.
Gonna disagree with you somewhat on that perspective!
Marketing may ASK for the moon, but they usually back off when Engineering tells them what it would cost in development, tooling and cost per vehicle.
Engineering will ALWAYS have the last word in terms of any specs as it is their job on the line if they blow it, not the Marketing guys.
The time substantial changes CAN take place is during the spec development for a major model change. This is a cooperative effort between Marketing and Engineering and is a time when the Chief Engineer will decide where to spend money on significant upgrades.
The major payload and towing capacity upgrades of the current GM trucks were a result of this process.
Don't look for huge capacity changes for the next go round though, project money is being spent elsewhere. (Interiors for example)
There are plenty of examples where the OEMs have changed tow ratings with no mechanical changes to the vehicle just to "one up" the competition.
From someone who has chaired product development teams...all are kinda sorta
correct
Bottom line is engineer's numbers, but there is another bottom line and that
is what the Program manager (chair) will sign off on
That then means marketing can ask for the moon is correct and the do.
They might sometimes get a bit of their wish, as the team can readdress the
MTBF numbers against their specification signed up for.
They can okay it, but that then becomes service departments additional cost.
The team can then waive service's goals and I always had marketing pay for
that. They are the richest department on any product team
To outsiders it just looks like pure marketing changes and again a kinda sorta
right, but they do account for internally that we as outsiders will never know
Bottom line to us, the public/buyers/owners is where they will warranty
that product or not
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
One part marketing, two parts engineering, one part warranty cost analysis.
Read your first article! Testing revealed that design targets were exceeded, so there was a little headroom left without a design change. If that was enough to take bragging rights, why not
Keith J.
1999 Sunnybrook 27RKFS Fiver.
2005 GMC Sierra 2500HD CC/SB/DA 2WD, LBZ air cleaner, 52 gal Titan tank, Bilsteins, Line-X, Westin steps, Prodigy, Retrax cover, 16K Superglide, 5th-Airborne pin-box, Multi-vex mirrors, TST TPMS.
ib516 wrote: Tow ratings are a little bit engineering, and a lot marketing.
Gonna disagree with you somewhat on that perspective!
Marketing may ASK for the moon, but they usually back off when Engineering tells them what it would cost in development, tooling and cost per vehicle.
Engineering will ALWAYS have the last word in terms of any specs as it is their job on the line if they blow it, not the Marketing guys.
The time substantial changes CAN take place is during the spec development for a major model change. This is a cooperative effort between Marketing and Engineering and is a time when the Chief Engineer will decide where to spend money on significant upgrades.
The major payload and towing capacity upgrades of the current GM trucks were a result of this process.
Don't look for huge capacity changes for the next go round though, project money is being spent elsewhere. (Interiors for example)
Glad I saw this post before I replied. I am a mechanical design engineer and I agree 100%
Its always interesting to see so many say "Marketing" blows up the numbers but then others say the attorneys lower the numbers because America is sue happy, even more so when compared to tow ratings overseas. Too funny.
Here's the generic way most big projects work. Marketing determines their wish list, Engineering determines what is possible for the target cost of the project. In the end, they compromise, but Engineering is the department responsible for the ratings.
Mechanical failures dont come down on Marketing, but they will sure complain when their sales take a hit!!!
bcarroll wrote: Is it engine size? gear ratio? suspension? vehicle weight?
Why is it the the new Ford F150 ecoboost, 3.5L engine, can tow up to 11k lbs, but another 1/2 ton pick up with a 5.7L engine can only tow up to around 8k lbs?
If you take the turbo's off the 3.5EB the pickup would struggle to tow 4,000lbs.
But it would probably last a very long time because of the lower HP output and the high quality design/construction that was put into the drivetrain.
The truck would be too heavy, too bulky, and have poor aerodynamics for the non turbo V6 to pull much.
Airstreams.... the best towing trailers on the planet!
Thanks for posting this image...had forgotten about the recall on my
1973 K5 Blazer on this.
The steering box flexes the frame rail to cause cracks like this. Off
roaders like me who move boulders with their tires exacerbates this
and there was a fix with a backing plate.
Over sized tires also exacerbate this flexing of the steering box frame
rail area.
Mine started to crack before the recall and had already made my
own backing plate out of 1/4" plate steel. The recall begot a 10 GA
backing plate.
Am going to post this image on another thread where folks were providing
advice to a guy who drilled 10 holes on his trailer tongue asking
if it was 'okay'...his gut says no and why I think he asked...
In some corporations the product team is chaired by marketing. My
corporation had both engineering and marketing chairs for product
teams, but different divisions.
Example is one product team I chaired had the GM demand I waive some
regulatory requirements. Refused and forced to leave that division.
He then switched 'his' division to become a marketing chaired product
teams. Plugged in MBA's as program managers running product teams.
My replacement got the job done as directed and received a $40K bonus
back in the early 90's.
Got the last laugh...he called my new GM 2 years later demanding I
come back to fix 'my' problem...after he found his name on the French
arrest on entry to France list...love how other countries regulatory
agencies really do enforce with TEETH their laws on specifications,
ratings, and safety codes.
Money talks and these bean counters only listen/look for/etc MONEY
NewsW wrote: There is another department involved in the discussion, when things like a shear stress failure of the frame results in an accident.
Now for the fun part when the frame fails... because the owner overloaded it...
Depending on the specific vehicle, the frame can be made of mild steel (easy to repair), or high strength steel (very hard to repair) or a bit of both.
Specifics can usually be found in the upfitters manual. It will tell you what can be attached to the frame, what holes cut, and whether welds can be done to the frame without causing a problem.
If a high strength steel frame is improperly welded, the weld is going to be weaker than surrounding HSS, and the following results:
For those who think that grossly exceeding the manufacturers rating will not break something.... well... maybe not the first few times... plastic distortion happens first, then it gets brittle, and eventually, crack and then break.
Enjoy!
Hope your vehicle came off line "meeting spec" on the welds critical to towing strenght... it should 99.99+% of the time!
* This post was
edited 07/01/12 02:56pm by NewsW *
Ya'll shoulda bought a uni-body "truck" like my Honda Pilot. HAHA HA!!!
This is simply a great case in point (the pictures and points made) when you abuse something, it can fail. And even the best mechanically engineered things can fail.
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