John & Angela wrote: You can disregard the GVWR of the trailer. General rule of thumb is the bigger the GVWR the better as it is a reflection of the size and quality of things like axles, brakes and tires. GVWR of the trailer is not a reflection of the weight of the trailer.
Unfortunately, that opinion leaves advertised "dry weight." It is generally worthless as it rarely reflects the actual weight of the trailer as-equipped on the lot, and does not include your stuff.
GVWR gives you an idea of what the trailer COULD weigh in a worst case scenario. With all the weight from options and typical load of supplies and personal items, you are not likely to exceed the GVWR number on the trailer.
If you select a trailer with a GVWR that is at or below your available to capacity, you are practically 100% GUARANTEED that you will have a comfortable enjoyable "safe" towing experience, and you will not be overloading your tow vehicle.
Good morning. I know what you are saying but I guess the other side of the coin is that using a GVWR number all the time can promote unsafe practices (in my opinion). If you have two trailers that weigh 4000 pounds and one has a GVWR of 6000 and the other 7500 lbs which one would you rather have. Arctic fox is an example of a company that uses large capacity axles in comparison to many other manufacturers.
If in doubt weigh the trailer and be realistic with expected cargo but I wouldn't let a higher GVWR scare you away from what might be a very quality unit. Like buying a truck, higher GVWR is generally your friend. JMHO
2003 Revolution 40C Class A. 2002 Vanguard 22 foot Class C. Diesel smart car Toad or pulling a 2009 Timeout Tent Trailer.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take but rather by the moments that take our breath away.
John & Angela wrote: You can disregard the GVWR of the trailer. General rule of thumb is the bigger the GVWR the better as it is a reflection of the size and quality of things like axles, brakes and tires. GVWR of the trailer is not a reflection of the weight of the trailer.
Unfortunately, that opinion leaves advertised "dry weight." It is generally worthless as it rarely reflects the actual weight of the trailer as-equipped on the lot, and does not include your stuff.
GVWR gives you an idea of what the trailer COULD weigh in a worst case scenario. With all the weight from options and typical load of supplies and personal items, you are not likely to exceed the GVWR number on the trailer.
If you select a trailer with a GVWR that is at or below your available to capacity, you are practically 100% GUARANTEED that you will have a comfortable enjoyable "safe" towing experience, and you will not be overloading your tow vehicle.
Good morning. I know what you are saying but I guess the other side of the coin is that using a GVWR number all the time can promote unsafe practices (in my opinion). If you have two trailers that weigh 4000 pounds and one has a GVWR of 6000 and the other 7500 lbs which one would you rather have. Arctic fox is an example of a company that uses large capacity axles in comparison to many other manufacturers.
If in doubt weigh the trailer and be realistic with expected cargo but I wouldn't let a higher GVWR scare you away from what might be a very quality unit. Like buying a truck, higher GVWR is generally your friend. JMHO
Actualy truth is. the Yellow sticker on the trailer sitting on the lot, Tells you the exact weight of the trailer sitting in front of you. So if it like mine says, it weighes 4810 lbs as it sits. It does. I know that I will add less than 1000lbs to it. So before I even think about buyinh the TT, I know that I can tow it, as the loaded ready to camp weight will less about 5800lbs. Knowing what My TV will tow. I know that That is well within my capacity.
My TT has a GVWR of over 7000lbs. It will NEVER weigh anywhere near that much. It is the useless number.
With the OPs truck, and towing capacity. I too agree. He should stay at, or under 5000lbs. not because of some fictional 80% rule. But because by the time you load the truck, with the youngen, bikes, and fire wood, your tow capacity will be down into the 6500lb range.
there are litterly hundreds od travel trailers in that weight range for you to chose from. From 16 feet to 31 feet. Bunkhouse, and lin=ving room TT, slide, and no slide. Go slow. Pick the one you think will be right for you.
* This post was
edited 07/03/12 11:13am by Terryallan *
Hi Jason and am EMPRESSED with your efforts both in going out to actually weigh
your TV and to read & understand the metrics HOW2 figure your 'actual' or 'true' ratings.
CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!
Using the 80% rule of thumb is close, but mainly because they do wish to follow
the specification/ratings/limits, but do not go out and actually weigh their stuff
Using the GVWR of the trailer is okay to a very good way to figure it out on paper
as it is the maximum it is rated for, but still needs to go out and actually
weigh it stuffed ready to go camping. As most find or are very surprised
that the stuff they loaded on/in their TV and trailer is way more than
they thought
Ask 10 people and you will get a min of 11 answers...
Guess you have come across lots and lots of those answers and say just keep track
of the answers along with which advice fits your values the most
If you haven't seen this diagram before, here it is again just in case. Bakes
it down to an image of how the various spec's, ratings and limits all play
together in concert. Too many take any one rating number out of context to say
it is an absolute
Good luck, but you are right on track and the devil is in the details. Meaning
that will be in dialing in the whole setup once you have all of the parts.
Most folks take the specifications out of context or selectively
out of context and either do not understand or (back to the selectively
thing) skew the definitions
First, decide if you believe in the OEM specifications or not.
If not, then do whatever you wish, but know that the OEM's warranty
maybe voided
If yes, then learn how the 'whole system' works, as all specification
components work in concert
Best to go out and actually weigh your setup axle by axle, both empty
and fully loaded. That is the only way to know where you are in reference
to the ratings.
embedded in your quote are my comments in red and below that is a
link to a thread the might help you understand the whole system
thing. Along with an image I modified from another members diagram
showing how the whole system looks like
jdmoore59 wrote: Greetings all.
The wife and I are considering a TT to take to the lake where we do a lot of boating.
My TV is a 2003 F-150 SuperCew. 5.4L 3.55 limited slip.
Need to know the GVWR of this TV, as it might be a 'HD', which is a
'heavy half' or a 'light 3/4'
Ford towing guide says 7900 lbs. out of context without the
GVWR number and the actual weight of your TV
A local RV dealer told me 9000 lbs.I only trust the printed
information from the TV's OEM
Realistically, what's a real world number? unknown till you
weigh your setup axle by axle, both empty and fully loaded ready to
go camping
Thanks in advance
Here is the hot link to another thread on the same topic and hope
will help you understand how it is a whole system and that the
various ratings numbers by themselves is out of context without the
rest of the specifications.
BenK wrote: Go out and weigh the whole setup loaded ready to go camping.
Weigh it axle by axle
Then look up the specifications of your TV, as that is what it is rated for.
There are somethings not easily or able to add after the fact. Factory
tow options also has stuff like larger alternator, battery, and the
biggie...software in the ECU (engine control unit).
Also, decide if you believe in the ratings or not.
If not, then do whatever you wish, but know that that is risk management decision
AKA...gambling
Made up this diagram from another members diagram that shows the relationship
of all the specifications/limits/ratings/etc. They all play together in concert
and are not stand alone ratings. howmuchcanitow
This is a good thread of another with a similar to your situation. This might
help you figure out your setup
-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...
Jason, you've done a really good job of homework. There are just a few additional critical values to be defined.
1) We need to know your best estimate of what the TV will weigh when ready for a camping trip.
You need to add your best estimate of weight of people and cargo, including about 90# for a weight distribution hitch, in addition to what was in the TV when it weighed 5280#.
For sake of illustration, let's assume these extras weigh 500# making the TV's estimated total weight = 5280+500 = 5780#
2) We need to know the receiver's Tongue Weight rating when used with a weight distribution hitch.
This usually can be found on a label on the receiver.
3) We need to know your best estimate of how much cargo, in excess of the sticker UVW, the trailer will carry.
Assuming the loaded TV weighs 5780#, the maximum loaded TT weight which can be "pulled" by the TV will be = 12500-5780 = 6720#.
We then can assume the TT's tongue weight will be 13% of the loaded weight. The corresponding TW would be 6720*.13 = about 875#.
This value should not exceed the receiver's TW rating.
With a properly adjusted WDH, approximately 75% of the TW will be carried on the TV. The TT-induced vertical load would be about 875*.75 = about 650#.
The weight of the loaded TV plus the TT-induced load would be about 5780+650 = 6430#. This value should not exceed the TV's GVWR (It's close}.
Given the above assumptions and if the receiver's rating is equal to or greater than 875#, you should be able to tow a loaded TT weight of 6720# without exceeding the TV's ratings.
Then you need to subtract the estimated weight of TT "cargo" from 6720 to determine the maximum TT "sticker weight" you should be considering.
For example if you estimate 1000 of cargo, the maximum allowable sticker UVW would be about 5720#.
You said you like a TT which has a "brochure" dry weight of 5725#. What is the make and model of the TT?
Sometimes you can find "sticker" dry weights on a dealer's website.
Terry Allan wrote: My TT has a GVWR of over 7000lbs. It will NEVER weigh anywhere near that much. It is the useless number.
It may be a useless number for you, but not for me (or others) as I have loaded both my current and my last trailer to max GVWR...
IMO, it is a very useful number, and in fact a very important number, as the TT manufacturer is telling you the maximum your loaded trailer can weigh...
Les
2000 Ford F-250SD, XLT, 4X4 Off Road, SuperCab
w/ 6.8L (415 C.I.) V-10/3:73LS/4R100
Banks Power Pack w/Trans Command & OttoMind
Sold Trailer - not RV'ing at this point in time
Quote: Actualy truth is. the Yellow sticker on the trailer sitting on the lot, Tells you the exact weight of the trailer sitting in front of you.
I am not so sure about the accuracy of weights on the yellow sticker. It was the weight of the trailer leaving the factory and that weight usually does not include batteries nor propane. It also does not include any dealer added accessories or options. The dealer does not provide the yellow sticker, the factory does.
'05 Dodge Cummins 4x4 dually 3500 white quadcab auto long bed.
'09 299bhs Tango.
Quote: It may be a useless number for you, but not for me (or others) as I have loaded both my current and my last trailer to max GVWR...
IMO, it is a very useful number, and in fact a very important number, as the TT manufacturer is telling you the maximum your loaded trailer can weigh...
Les
I agree. There are many travel trailers that have 1600 pounds or so payload capacity. Almost nobody weighs each spoon or tool or blanket we take with us and I suspect that as we keep camping the stuff we constantly add but never seem to remove adds to the weight until we are at or near gross. I am a little bewildered that some said they are never near gross. And to add to that the trailer most likely weighs 300 or more pounds than any dry weight numbers due to options, batteries and propane.
I'll let others tell you if your specs work, but I get real frustrated with those folks who call for a 20% safety factor. Do you really believe that truck mfgr's. staff of highly paid lawyers don't build a safety factor into their published tow ratings?
2002 Keystone Cougar 286, 8,400lbs loaded, pulled with a 2004 F150 Supercrew, 5.4, 3.73 gears. Retired and enjoying life
jmtandem wrote: I am not so sure about the accuracy of weights on the yellow sticker. It was the weight of the trailer leaving the factory and that weight usually does not include batteries nor propane. It also does not include any dealer added accessories or options. The dealer does not provide the yellow sticker, the factory does.
The weight posted on the federally-mandated sticker is not the weight of the trailer leaving the factory.
The weight on the federally-mandated sticker is the weight when leaving the factory PLUS the calculated weight of enough propane to fill the tanks.
The sticker must be amended if the weight of dealer-installed items exceeds a certain value.
The weight information which must be provided by the trailer manufacturer is specified by NHTSA/FMVSS in 49 CFR 571.110.
For example, 571.110 specifies:
"---If the vehicle is a recreation vehicle trailer and is equipped with a propane supply, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the vehicle’s unloaded vehicle weight."
(underline added for emphasis)
As regards items, such as batteries, installed after initial the trailer leaves the factory, 571.110 specifies:
"S10. Weight added to vehicles between final vehicle certification and first retail sale of the vehicle.
S10.1 If weight exceeding the lesser of 1.5 percent of GVWR or 45.4 kg (100 pounds) is added to a vehicle between final vehicle certification and first retail sale of the vehicle, the vehicle capacity weight values on the placard required by S4.3 or S4.3.5 and the load carrying capacity weight values on the RV load carrying capacity labels (Figures 3 and 4) required by S9.3 must be corrected using one or a combination of the following methods: ---"
By the way, "CFR" stands for "Code of Federal Regulations".
jmtandem wrote: ---There are many travel trailers that have 1600 pounds or so payload capacity.---
And, there are many that have 3000-4000 pounds payload capacity.
Quote: ---I am a little bewildered that some said they are never near gross.---
Perhaps those people actually weigh their loaded trailers.
Quote: ---And to add to that the trailer most likely weighs 300 or more pounds than any dry weight numbers due to options, batteries and propane.
If a trailer, at first sale, weighs 300# or more than the federally-mandated sticker UVW, either the manufacturer or dealer or both are in violation of Federal Code.
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