The thread was closed before I got a chance to respond to wintersun's post.
As a young fellow many, mnay years ago I worked in the timber industrys and I also worked for the Forest Service. My Dad retired from the timber industry so I feel I have a little light to shed on some of your comments.
When I worked in the timber and the timber companies bid on stands of timber and if they suceeded in getting the bid it was up to them to build the roads into the stand, not the Forest Service. The company I worked for had a couple of guys with D8 cats and that was their full time job was cutting in roads into the stands and keep them up while being used. This was all part of the timber companies role.
Then when I worked for the Forest Service guess what I was doing then, I was working survey and we were the group that went out and surveyed the land where the timber company was going to build the road. We engineered the roads with ditches and how big a cut into the side hill was required to prevent erosion.
Now after the timber was logged then sure the roads were turned over to the Forest Service and a lot of them in later years gave access for fire crews to get into areas to fight fires. If those roads where not there they have to build them to get tankers, trucks and equipment into the fire camp. So the roads have served many purposes over their life.
I do believe in trying to care for the forest and the enviorment. I have traveled a lot of country in my past job and in my travels in very remote areas that were closed to the public (a lot of private timber company property) I would see plastic bottles and I carried a trash bag in my pickup and I would stop and pick it up. I always stayed on roads and where I needed to leave the road it was on foot.
All of the above being said when I returned to Montana after many years away I tried to take my TC into a lot of roads that I use to travel when I was a kid. Almost all of them are now closed down and you can't drive them anymore. They are closed because of either it is grizzly habit or elk breeding ground or some other reason. They say that the reason is grizzlies don't like crossing roads. It sure seems like every time I walk these roads I have to walk around the scat that is laying on the road. That road sure didn't bother the bear enough to keep them from pooping on it. Some day these roads well be needed to fight fires and then they are going to have to work and clear down fall to get to them.
Also just think of all the downed timber that are in these areas that people can use to burn in their stoves (lots of people in Montana still heat in the winter with wood). Now it is just lying on the ground rotting and making great fuel for a fire and making it harder to fight a fire. Timber is a renewable source, have you traveled along the Olympic Peninsula in WA state and you well see signs how this area has been replanted and I was really surprised how fast the trees were growing.
I thought the National Forests were for all to enjoy but it is only for those that are able to walk great distances or one that own horses sny more.
Brad, Wayne or admin, If you feel this needs to be deleted that is ok I just had to respond. I tried to keep it from being an attack but just wanted to refute some of the things stated. I did stay within the the thread of TC as these are areas that I wanted to go TCing in when I was living in Montana.
Sorry for being so long but when I feel strongly about something it take a lot of words for me to get it all out.
Butch
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I guess the comment that comes to mind after reading the 30 new posts since Friday, is that it becomes clear to me that a national "1 size fits all" policy for the USFS and all districs is what doesn't make sense to me. If there is a problem of crackheads and meth labs in the forest in Florida, then institute a plan for that region or district and implement it. If 10,000 RV'ers all want to camp in the same desert in the southwest then plan for that and deal with it.
But it is really a shame if overcrowding and overuse/abuse in say, the Cocino, causes roads to be closed in the Cabinet Mountains!
Everybody realizes that the heavy-use areas probably have different issues and needs than the low-use ones. One size fits all rarely works.
btggraphix wrote: But it is really a shame if overcrowding and overuse/abuse in say, the Cocino, causes roads to be closed in the Cabinet Mountains!
It's not over crowding, the closure of roads will create overcrowding. The restrictions are based off of rouge roads created by vehicles, ATV's seem to be the main culprit but its trucks, jeeps and RV campers as well. This is a nation wide problem so I can see the reasoning. My only complaint is why close roads that have been established for years. The population is only increasing and we see our roads decreasing. I live on 3 acres, it may get to the point I will camp in my front yard for a quite experience.
Brad, Thanks for reopening this topic. I think it is very relavent in the present.
I encourage all here to consider organizing or joining groups that want to work to keep some of these public lands accessable. I know that many of us are, by nature not joiners, I know that I am. I much prefer to be with my wife or family and do not frequently participate in large group activities. As a Member of the Assateague Mobil Sportsfishermans Assoc. I pay dues, leave most of the activities to the younger members. We have attended the Camporee with several hundred TC's on the beach in early August, every year. It's a blast!
The core of what has been favorable to keeping the beach open is First we suggested a limited number of OSV (over sand vehicles) at any one time, 145, after full, one off one on. All vehicles must be licensed. Overnite OSV must be completely self contained (CSC). Overniting non-CSC must be actively fishing, no sleeping. Many vehicles have been caught in rising tides and washed out to sea, an expensive mess. An area was set aside(The Bull Pen) for overniters. Several other sensible rules, equiptment needed, speed limit and rules of the road. An annual fee schedule was agrees upon to off set the cost of overseeing and maintainence. We pay $150.00 for a years unlimited camping, there are various other fees for day use shorter terms etc.
The end result, we still have access, the beach is open to the public subject to the rules. But without AMSA it would definitely be closed to everyone. I have suggested to some folks in the Yellowstone NP area to consider getting organized to keep snowmobiling trails open.
We have a much better relationship with the Rangers and other Park Service poeple, the fines for vio;ations are high. I got hit for $150.00 for letting Marley, our labradoddle, off the leash. I goofed, dogs running around are a threat to the wild life. As with sll things, it and we ain't perfect, but we're able to compromise and still enjoy one of the most unique spots I've ever been, with our TC.
Seewww.keepersofthebeach.com
* This post was
edited 07/16/12 02:05pm by skipbee *
skipbee
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All that glisters is not gold. All who wander are not lost. See us on YouTube" Living the Lance Life" 3 of 4.
Very good post Skip, thank you. Like you say it ain't perfect as most compromises aren't, but they do work. I read also that Forestry is considering closing roads to "over snow" vehicles since the roads are for street legal vehicles. Good thing I've never seen a camper on a snow mobile.
One other thing I think needs brought up is getting involved, and having your voice heard. While the last couple years I'm guilty of being lazy on the subject, over the years I have done a lot of volunteer work for trail restoration for hiking, biking, atv and 4X4 roads. Unfortunately, I've never been in a position to do anything about the few idiots about, who definitely cause problems for all.
I also feel I should mention that you don't seem to see many of the general public types attending the land use meetings. The bulk of the people I've seen in the meetings I've been to are bused in professional so called environmentalists for the most part. The other 20 percent or so are made up of ATV and off road groups of different types, a few passionate locals who live on or work the land, and very few of what I’d call your average Joes. Off the top of my head I don’t recall hearing any “Campers” speaking up, and I’ve been to quite a few public meetings. Being as how most of the folks I’ve encountered heading into the forests do so for the nature and beauty, and all seem to have a desire to keep things that way you would think a lot could be done to manage things in a responsible multi use way that benefit’s the maximum amount of people possible while maintaining that about the forest that draws us in the first place. If we let the policies be set by the small, but organized extremist fringe groups we kind of deserve what we get. It would be interesting to see the outcome if everyone on this forum took the time to organize at least one of their camping trips around a land use public hearing over the next year or two.
Searching UT, You hit the nail on the head, as my head has been in the sand all these years. I've never seen or heard of the public meetings and now realize it's my duty to check periodically. I have my own feelings as to whether or not our voices are indeed heard and heeded but what can it hurt? You have a great point as do some others here. Thank you and the many others on this post with the voice of reason.
Now I need to make a camper on skis and tracks to convince Wayne he did see me last year at Snow Park, hi Wayne!
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