2003silverado
Michigan
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I think the author recently purchased a bunch of VW stock...
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Skinny Man
North Georgia
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Sure you can be a non union worker at an auto manufacturing plant it just ups the odds of you getting run over by a forklift.
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Hannibal
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Skinny Man wrote:Anyone that thinks the union had nothing to do with GM, Ford, and Chrysler's financial issues is smoking something. A few years ago $7000 from every vehicle sold went to pay retirement. That is insane. When the big 3 get the unions out they will become profitable. Non union workers seem to be building pretty good cars for Toyota and Honda in the US it seems.
Bull. Link to proof please.
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Johnworth914
USA!
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Hannibal wrote:Skinny Man wrote:Anyone that thinks the union had nothing to do with GM, Ford, and Chrysler's financial issues is smoking something. A few years ago $7000 from every vehicle sold went to pay retirement. That is insane. When the big 3 get the unions out they will become profitable. Non union workers seem to be building pretty good cars for Toyota and Honda in the US it seems.
Bull. Link to proof please.
X2 I REALLY doube thagt number. I'd doubt 1/2 that number. In fact, I'd doubt 10 percent of that number.
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phillyg
Front Royal, VA
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I'm beginning to disbelieve most the the predictions I hear about most anything. Recently I've read predictions of 50% unemployment, a total crash of the stockmarket and WWIV, all to occur in 2013. The last thing we need is another bailout of an auto company. Too big to fail; BS, I say.
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Hannibal
Gas Station
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travelnutz wrote:The reason I didn't add the insane retirement costs by name as is simply known that they will be going away soon anyway as they are not funded and the unions must take them over as was agreed upon as part of the previous bankruptcy settlement ratified language. Their actually a part of the legacy cost albatross that's stifling profit potential. The unions have virtually no money now and are continuing to shrink in membership. The future looks extremely grim and bleak for them in the future!
GM management took many many times the cuts throughout than the union memebers did and so did the directors and its past time to even it up.
It takes big investment dollars to make changes to product lines and grow a business and it sure doesn't come from people who need a job as they have little or nothing to work with. I find it very humorous how the union diehards blabber on when they are working but change their tune when laid off or fired. Yes, I'm referring to a poster etc on this thread as I had saved his crying posts from only a year or two back. How soom he forgets!
GM's weak and corrupt short sighted management signed those contracts years ago. You can't blame a person or group for wanting more. Everyone wants more including you. Management could have declined the proposed contracts for the sake of the future of the company. But like typical management types, they'll take the money and run and be long gone before the damage is realized. You go ahead and continue to blame the lowest paid employees on the payroll. If I offered to sell you my truck for $80k, would you take it or quickly decline? Ok, you don't want it, I'll take it off the market until you cave. I guess I'd keep the truck until I offered it for a price you're willing to pay. That may be nothing or close to it but no one is forcing you to buy it. If you're dumb enough to pay $80k for it, my gain, your loss. Same concept. Management caused the crisis.
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Huntindog
phoenix arizona USA
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The author strikes me as kind of a screwball.
Even he seems to know it. Just look at the tag line next to his name.
Statements like: "Automakers have been trying to build cars with longer wheelbases for years"....As if that was some sort of technological challenge. He then goes on to extol the virtues of long wheel bases....What a screwball. Auto makers long ago solved the challenge of building longer wheelbases...They also know that there are disadvantages to it as well. So they build vehicles with differing wheelbases and let the customers decide what works for them.
Then he talks about declining market share...And uses the 60s as a basis for his claim!! Another screwball statement. ALL of the domestic manufacturers have lost share since the 60s. The Japanese were barely getting started back then.
* This post was
edited 08/16/12 06:45pm by Huntindog *
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bstark
Ontario, Canada
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Skinny Man wrote:Anyone that thinks the union had nothing to do with GM, Ford, and Chrysler's financial issues is smoking something. A few years ago $7000 from every vehicle sold went to pay retirement. That is insane. When the big 3 get the unions out they will become profitable. Non union workers seem to be building pretty good cars for Toyota and Honda in the US it seems.
I have got to wade in on this one to firstly call B/S on that $7k tag from each and every car to top-up the pension plan. That little obfuscation is off the scale in nutty.
Secondly; why do you suppose the pension or any of their legacy costs grew out of control? I can tell you; because GM didn't fund them that's why! Instead of doing the legally and fundamentally fiscal responsible thing and take some profits to fund those plans as they should have; they, instead took funding holidays for years in a row EVEN thought hey were agreeing to benefits improvements at the bargaining tables.
Those of us who were administrators of private pension funds were telling all who would listen: GM is operating in a fiscally irresponsible fashion by not having actuarial assessments done on a frequent basis to co-ordinate with neg-table improvements they are agreeing to. GM is deferring the funding to ALL of it's benefits plans and instead operating on a pay as you play basis.
Those of us watching this behaviour cautioned the CAW Union in Canada to have an independant actuarial assessment performed and at the next round of talks to insist funding be current to satisfy any unfunded liabilities. Didn't happen.
GM reneged on it's bargaining table agreed-to provision of a pension plan by knowingly underfunding any and all benefits plans. I attribute their thinking to one of two conditions; either they thought they would enjoy a windfall year or two where they could recoup draw-downs on their plans OR They anticipated a time when they'd hit a wall and knew the outcome would be Exec's - 50 Employees - 0.
You clowns blaming the Unions for all of GM's ills need a dose of reality. GM behaved like the proverbial drunk locked in a bar overnight. They played fast and loose with table discussions focused on all the wrong parts of the labour equation and agreed to stuff they NEVER INTENDED to fund in a fiscally responsible manner. It wasn't because they didn't have the money it was because they wanted to use it for other things like a Taj Mahal building and corporate jet/s.
In a fair world that would have been seen as illegal behaviour (many financial entities were warning BOTH governments about their funding irregularities for years) and corrected by forced compliance with normal pension plan funding rules but, hey; they were too big to fail, right?
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agesilaus
North Florida
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Quote:
Yup them damn unions and their hi-faluttin ideas that people should earn a livable wage! damn them! They should all work for minimum wage and be thankful to their corporate overseers that they have a job at all.
Maybe GM should start by building vehicles that people want. and not paying gheir executives 100x what the average line worker makes.
MIndsets like Pebblenutz is the reason unions ever existed in the first place and why they are still needed today. Short sighted management didn't have to sign any contracts that they didn't agree with. But they signed and it's a legal contract.
I hope GM pulls through but like said, they need to build more desirable cars. That's up to management, not the UAW.
Unless I'm wrong the UAW IS the management at GM. The bondholders and stockholders were left with nothing and the UAW and Government ended up owning the new GM. All the salaried workers--engineers and such lost their pensions but the UAW protected all their people.
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Engineer9860
Eagle Scout dad
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Lol.
Lots of emotion inspired opinions, not many facts in this thread.
Typical of the RV.net coffee shop.
I guess as long as they continue to make parts for my 2002 Silverado it doesn't matter what any of the auto manufacturers do. Any of the 2012 full sized trucks are way over priced to me.
agesilaus wrote:Quote:
Yup them damn unions and their hi-faluttin ideas that people should earn a livable wage! damn them! They should all work for minimum wage and be thankful to their corporate overseers that they have a job at all.
Maybe GM should start by building vehicles that people want. and not paying gheir executives 100x what the average line worker makes.
MIndsets like Pebblenutz is the reason unions ever existed in the first place and why they are still needed today. Short sighted management didn't have to sign any contracts that they didn't agree with. But they signed and it's a legal contract.
I hope GM pulls through but like said, they need to build more desirable cars. That's up to management, not the UAW.
Unless I'm wrong the UAW IS the management at GM. The bondholders and stockholders were left with nothing and the UAW and Government ended up owning the new GM. All the salaried workers--engineers and such lost their pensions but the UAW protected all their people.
Um, I'd say your correct.
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