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Topic: First Ram Promaster van class B

Posted By: bobojay5 on 04/29/13 11:42pm

Tonight Winnebago introduced a new class B offering on the new Ram Promaster van calling it the "Travato".
More info to come.

* This post was edited 04/30/13 02:54am by bobojay5 *


Bob & Sharon
Eastern Kansas
2013 Winnebago ERA 70A
Sprinter Class B Van
Our Second Sprinter


Posted By: stan909 on 04/30/13 02:25am

Not to be Debbie Downer but does anybody remember the Lesharo?


Posted By: markopolo on 04/30/13 06:33am



Looking forward to seeing more photos and detailed specs.


1997 Custom Van - GMC 6.5l Turbo diesel
My Profile
My Website



Posted By: bobojay5 on 04/30/13 09:23am

Well, one thing we do know is that all the chassis specs are the best in the industry. GVW, turning radius etc. for any given model. 2500, 3500 etc.


Posted By: stan909 on 04/30/13 05:21pm

Get a load of the shnoz on that thing. But if they run great and give some competition to the game then the more the merrier.


Posted By: Sunnygirl on 04/30/13 06:26pm

I'd love to get some more views of this rig. The 2 person bench seat behind the driver looks similar to the setup in the Hymer Car; I can't tell what's in front of the door on the passenger side.






Posted By: markopolo on 04/30/13 06:37pm

Lichtsinn Motors sent me info and photos which I posted here:

Winnebago Travato photos and details

I think they'll be putting the photos up on their Facebook page soon as well so you can check there as well.


Posted By: mlts22 on 04/30/13 07:48pm

I'd like more back to front, or front to back views. The floorplan pictured above looks interesting, and usable, especially with the dinette. I can't tell if the bed is one unit, or if it flips up into a couch.

Since the ProMaster is going to be here to stay (Dodge has absolutely zippo in the van arena and a minivan won't cut it, Ford is having delays on getting the Transit, and there is demand for high MPG vans), I would probably say that the Travato will be better than the Rialta or the Lesharo in being a long time model.

I like the gasoline option. That means that the generator could be a gasoline model, allowing for more run time.

I do have a few concerns though:

1: Service. The Dodge/Mercedes/Sprinter dealer runaround that was done with the Sprinter would be not acceptable, we have been through that before, and since this only one car make sells these in the US, it really needs to be serviced by any Dodge/RAM dealer. As far as I know, Ford Transits will be serviceable by any Ford seller.

2: Engine. The 280 hp Pentastar looks a bit underpowered for such a large vehicle, especially on steep grades.

3: Price. I want to see what the cost difference on a finished model is.

All and all, this seems to be something worth looking into. I was expecting upfitters to take 1-2 years before taking a stab at upfitting the new van models.


Posted By: Sunnygirl on 04/30/13 08:54pm

I didn't care for this floorplan - or at least what I could see of it from the pictures - but it's good to know that the converters and RV companies are already working with the ProMaster. I'd like to know what the bed sizes are and how the front dinette converts. I couldn't figure what the upholstered piece in front of the door was, other than an inconveniently located piece of a convertible bed. I'm hoping that it'll all make sense (and I'll like it better) when Lichtsinn is eventually able to put a video up. I also thought the CCC was low, especially since it appeared from the pictures that this was built on a 3500 ProMaster. I thought the CCCs on some of the Bs that were built on the 3500 Sprinter were over 2000 lbs. Maybe because the Sprinter is a dually? I didn't notice whether this ProMaster was. In any event, this is much sooner than I expected to see a B using the Ram van.


Posted By: bobojay5 on 04/30/13 09:16pm

The one in the pics is a 3500 with single rear wheels. Unusual


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 04:47am

As well as a few people doing Class B versions of the Ducato.
Avida Escape was "Winnebago"


Has Drop down Bed and "Toy" storage area

Sunliner has done his interesting Deck and corresponding slide on the other side Class C.



Avida Eyre based on the Ducato




Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 04:51am

mlts22 wrote:

Engine. The 280 hp Pentastar looks a bit underpowered for such a large vehicle, especially on steep grades

It will be puffing, very underpowered.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 05:15am

To give you more of an idea of what can be done. Really a Class B in concept an Avida(Formerly Australian Winnbago) Birdsville.


Similar theme Trakka 700




* This post was edited 05/01/13 05:28am by RobertRyan *


Posted By: bobojay5 on 05/01/13 09:26am

I think some of you are underestimating the Pentastar V6 in it's to be van form.
It's a powerful V6 for it's size, but it does take rpm to make that power. We currently have one in a Jeep Wrangler and it's a hot rod, once it gets above 2500 or so rpm. And smooth as glass.
I realize we're talking about 2 different vehicles classes here, but I'm sure the engineers will gear the Provan and retune the motor for lower rpm grunt. Besides, it will have a 6 spd transmission vs a 5 spd what we have in the Jeep.
Having said all that, I'd buy the diesel anyway.


Posted By: stan909 on 05/01/13 09:59am

Winnebago has never really worried about wimpy powered vehicles in the past. I have had a couple Toyota class C rigs in the past and even at 4 cylinders thought them ok. We just ran out of room. The 6 cylinder would have been more than enough without towing and those old Toyotas where not 266 hp.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/01/13 10:31am

I just noticed the displayed vehicle has a SRW axle. For CCC's sake, shouldn't it be using DRWs? I know that makes a BIG difference when it comes to Sprinters, as with a 3500, there is usually 2500-3000 pounds of CCC left over after an upfitting, while a 2500 might have 500 pounds at most.

I wonder if Dodge/Fiat will allow modifications, as these vans appear to be body on frame construction as opposed to unibody. This would allow for some basement storage.

As for the Trakka 700, is that a "B" like a PW Excel is a "B", or is it more of a C? I do like the rear bed slide.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 01:36pm

boboyjay5 wrote:

I think some of you are underestimating the Pentastar V6 in it's to be van form.
It's a powerful V6 for it's size, but it does take rpm to make that power. We currently have one in a Jeep Wrangler and it's a hot rod, once it gets above 2500 or so rpm. And smooth as glass

It is still "peaky" and not that suitable as a Van engine.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 01:41pm

mlts22 wrote:

I just noticed the displayed vehicle has a SRW axle. For CCC's sake, shouldn't it be using DRWs?

On a Ducato the DRW's are like this.



Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 01:44pm

mlts22 wrote:

As for the Trakka 700, is that a "B" like a PW Excel is a "B", or is it more of a C? I do like the rear bed slide.

Yes very much like a Pleasure Way.


Posted By: Arizona Kid on 05/01/13 04:59pm

So are you saying it started off as a Van like the PW?






Posted By: mumkin on 05/01/13 07:21pm

I'm not sure if RobertRyan is using American or Australian definitions of a "B." (a discussion we had a long time ago here).

Whatever... it will be fun to see what new options appear with the new platforms!!


Mumkin
2011 LTV Libero



Posted By: mlts22 on 05/01/13 09:02pm

From what friends across the pond say, I think we will end up with Sprinters always being the flagship class B chassis, just because of the name. After that, it is a toss-up between Ford and Dodge, with Dodge having a lead as these vans are only a few months from hitting the US roads, while Ford's offering is still about a year away.

As for being a Fiat van, with Sergio Marchionne at the helm, he has done a lot to improve things. I remember when Dodge vehicles got an interior upgrade a few years back (2011 and newer). Another nice thing is the technology availability across the board to the company, be it a Chrysler or a Ferrari.

I'm actually excited about this, because it will bring some interesting competition... and some new styles of rigs. I'd love some that are pictured on the Ducato chassis (as per fiatcamper.com.)


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 11:28pm

Arizona Kid wrote:

So are you saying it started off as a Van like the PW?

Yes that is correct and they ,Trakka modified the body.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/01/13 11:32pm

mlts22 wrote:

From what friends across the pond say, I think we will end up with Sprinters always being the flagship class B chassis, just because of the name.

Difficult one to call on that. I know Adida, Sunliner use the Ducato and the more substantial IVECO Daily as their basis for a European derived C(Ducato is used as a B base). The Sprinter and VW Crafter are primarily B's.


Posted By: arvie on 05/02/13 07:00am

There is a video on Utube. Price is $84,000 and the bed can be hinged up for storage . Looks like it has a large refrigerator but no pictures of the bathroom yet.


Posted By: arvie on 05/02/13 07:10am

There is a second video showing a wet bath similar to the ERA.


Posted By: topless on 05/02/13 08:32am

It's a Fiat, that's all I need to know.






Posted By: georgelesley on 05/02/13 08:49am

arvie wrote:

There is a video on Utube. Price is $84,000 and the bed can be hinged up for storage . Looks like it has a large refrigerator but no pictures of the bathroom yet.


Ok guys, how do I find the videos on youtube?


George & Lesley
2013 Winnebago ERA 70A


Posted By: mumkin on 05/02/13 09:18am

mlts22 wrote:

From what friends across the pond say, I think we will end up with Sprinters always being the flagship class B chassis, just because of the name.

IMHO, Sprinter has nowhere near the name in the US that it does because of MB in Europe. And because MB has done a horrendous job since the "divorce" of providing dealers and service availability, I think Ford and the new Chrysler vans will push Sprinter out as quickly as the RV converters can get up to speed.

The availability of service facilities nearly everywhere ... quickly... will kill the Sprinter with its not uncommon need of 200-400 miles tows when you have a serious problem... and 200 mile drives to find a place to change your oil - or any warranty issue - in much of the country. (the number one reason that I don't own a Sprinter based RV)


Posted By: Sunnygirl on 05/02/13 10:49am

George, search for Travato in youtube, and then put in the filter so that it only shows you videos from the last week (the videos were posted May 1 by wallywinnebago). When I initially searched for Travato I didn't find it, but when I put the filter in they were the first two that came up.

The videos give limited views of the kitchen and bath so you can get a sense for those areas. I liked how the bed hinged up in the back, so you could store bikes or other large items (subject to the puny CCC, of course). However, I'd still like to get the bed dimensions - both beds look pretty small. I don't like the front dinette area at all. I need to be able to seat more than 4 people on the road, so this floor plan wouldn't work for us, but it sounds like there will be more floor plans. Hope springs eternal for something that works.


Posted By: georgelesley on 05/02/13 11:45am

Sunnygirl, Thanks! We just bought a new ERA, but I predict we will see lots of these on the road as soon as they can ramp up production. The price and floorplan should appeal to many folks.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/02/13 01:21pm

Time will tell about how the Sprinter fares. I was initially hesitant on anything Sprinter because of the exact same questions that mumkin has. However, there isn't anything to say that the ProMaster vans or the Transits might be any better when it comes to service availability. Oil changes are not too bad on Sprinters because Mobile 1 which is up to Mercedes's grade is commonly available.

In the best of all worlds, both vans (even with the high roof) will be serviced by any dealer who can handle pickup trucks. In the worst case, it will be "five star dealers", or only a select few which will have the taller bays to handle the vans. Dodge dealers are more common, but if only a select few bother to handle the van, then it will be the same problem as before with the Sprinter servicing. Who knows if all Ford dealers will service Transits, or if they might fall into this trap.

The videos are linked to the classbforum post about this topic. My quick sentiments from the brief tour:

1: Decent sized refrigerator, similar to the 70A floorplan. One gives up a clear view across one side for it though, which can make some people claustrophobic.

2: The bed is a fold down bed. OK for two people who don't mind sleeping together, but a deal-breaker for, say a brother and sister, or father/daughter on a camping trip. For one person, the fold down bed provides additional storage, as well as a nice place to put bicycles. The second bed appears to be a combination of stuff from the dinette. Would be nice to see it folded down to see if it can sleep a shorter adult cross-wise. Also, the mattress on the rear bed is a funky shape (good luck finding a replacement), and fairly thin. A Travasak can help things here, since there isn't a standard sheet set.

3: I cannot tell if the model is a gasser or a diesel. Diesels have more torque, gassers have the ability to have a gasoline generator for more run time.

4: The van is shorter than a Sprinter (although no clue on length), which is why the bed and bathroom have to overlap, length-wise. Maybe it can compete as a decent low-priced alternative to the Roadtrek SS Agile.

5: Not sure on storage space inside. I saw in the vid some of the overhead cabinets, and a closet.

6: I wonder what its towing capacity will be. The ability to safely use a hitch mounted cargo rack or even a small enclosed trailer will come into handy.

7: Stove and sink are Dometic/SMEV flush mounted models (which are definitely nice to have.) I wonder if WGO might have been better off going with the combined stove/sink offerings for more space savings.

8: Bathroom looked OK, but to maximize room, they went with a sliding panel door.

All and all, a definite competitor to the older Chevy van models. I'd love to see specs, especially tank capacities.


Posted By: gerrym51 on 05/02/13 02:47pm

i looked at the video. how do you get in the bathroom if the back bed is down?.


Posted By: mumkin on 05/02/13 03:14pm

My prediction is that all dealers who currently work on a Ford E350/450 will work on the Transit (which is most of them). And that the majority of Dodge/Chrysler dealers will work on theirs.

Unlike the current situation of states with 0-1 Sprinter dealer/service location.


Posted By: Sunnygirl on 05/02/13 03:25pm

Quote:

how do you get in the bathroom if the back bed is down?


The bed has the corner cut out of it, presumably for bathroom access.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/02/13 03:26pm

The back bed appears to have a chunk cut out of it so you can get to the bathroom if it is down. You can sort of see it around 1:01 in the second video.

The half-dinette is interesting, with the table leaves which fold out to allow the ottoman (guessing it has a back when the van door is closed) and the front driver's seat to use it when turned around. I wonder how that makes into a bed though, as the front storage above the cab (0:14 on the first video) seemed to have several cushions ready to go.


Posted By: Davydd on 05/02/13 04:39pm

It appears the bathroom door is a corner entry with a 45 deg. cutout of the corner thus the matching cutout of the bed.

Do the front seats turn? It looks as if they have to be shoved all the way forward to make the back seat and ottoman function with the table. That would not be a good solution.


Davydd
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter B Camper Van
Visited states in an RV



Posted By: Davydd on 05/02/13 04:45pm

I don't know a single Sprinter owner that has ever had to be towed and I know and have met many a Sprinter B owner. In over 100,000 miles driving some of the most remote roads in North America (Alaska and Yukon) with confidence I have never had a breakdown. I guess if that is your worry and driving criteria then you deserve a lesser solution that might breakdown and need to be towed.


Posted By: georgelesley on 05/02/13 06:18pm

Davydd wrote:

I don't know a single Sprinter owner that has ever had to be towed and I know and have met many a Sprinter B owner. In over 100,000 miles driving some of the most remote roads in North America (Alaska and Yukon) with confidence I have never had a breakdown. I guess if that is your worry and driving criteria then you deserve a lesser solution that might breakdown and need to be towed.


I guess I have to agree with Dave on this one. Worrying about a breakdown of a chassis that has been around for a long time is rather like letting the possibility of bad weather make you stay home. Can they break? Sure any machine can. Will they? Not likely to anymore than anything else. Buy Progressive Insurance like we did. Their towing coverage pays for the tow to the nearest facility that can fix your machine.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/02/13 08:40pm

The concern about reliability can be used the other way. NCV3 Sprinters have been around since 2007, and the 2014 models mainly had cosmetic changes. The DEF tank has been around for a few years.

On the other hand, the ProMaster is a completely new product, with a new engine. The van itself has been around for a long while across the pond, but what is critical is the engine and drivetrain.

My take is that one can't go wrong with either vehicle, although the Travato makes a lot of compromises for CCC.


Posted By: AsheGuy on 05/02/13 10:02pm

Davydd wrote:

I don't know a single Sprinter owner that has ever had to be towed and I know and have met many a Sprinter B owner. In over 100,000 miles driving some of the most remote roads in North America (Alaska and Yukon) with confidence I have never had a breakdown.

Ditto.


David & Margaret - 2005 LTV 210B 3S
- Our Blog -




Posted By: bobojay5 on 05/02/13 10:22pm

Davydd wrote:

I don't know a single Sprinter owner that has ever had to be towed and I know and have met many a Sprinter B owner. In over 100,000 miles driving some of the most remote roads in North America (Alaska and Yukon) with confidence I have never had a breakdown. I guess if that is your worry and driving criteria then you deserve a lesser solution that might breakdown and need to be towed.


Ditto again


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/03/13 02:40am

mumkin wrote:

I think Ford and the new Chrysler vans will push Sprinter out as quickly as the RV converters can get up to speed.

The 3.6 Litre Gas engine will be a liability. It appears they are not offering the Diesel like they do here. Not exactly great thinking there. The Insides of the Winnebago version, especially the collapsing bed look a bit pedestrian.
mlts22 wrote:

I wonder what its towing capacity will be. The ability to safely use a hitch mounted cargo rack or even a small enclosed trailer will come into handy.

Not much. You get a lot more with the diesel.

The Diesel makes a big difference in the towing performance



* This post was last edited 05/03/13 03:16am by RobertRyan *


Posted By: mumkin on 05/03/13 07:43am

georgelesley wrote:

Davydd wrote:

I don't know a single Sprinter owner that has ever had to be towed and I know and have met many a Sprinter B owner. In over 100,000 miles driving some of the most remote roads in North America (Alaska and Yukon) with confidence I have never had a breakdown. I guess if that is your worry and driving criteria then you deserve a lesser solution that might breakdown and need to be towed.


I guess I have to agree with Dave on this one. Worrying about a breakdown of a chassis that has been around for a long time is rather like letting the possibility of bad weather make you stay home. Can they break? Sure any machine can. Will they? Not likely to anymore than anything else. Buy Progressive Insurance like we did. Their towing coverage pays for the tow to the nearest facility that can fix your machine.

It was reading about the breakdowns and long tows (on Sprinter forums and Yahoo Sprinter groups for a number of years) that made my decision. Granted it is a great platform and breakdowns are rare, but for a woman who travels alone - mostly in the empty service-less prairies, safety and common sense prevailed.

While my local Dodge dealer will still do an oil change on any Sprinter, anything to do with warranty or requiring parts would necessitate a 300 mile drive. Personally I think MB has dropped the ball with the Sprinter and it will come back to bite them once there is decent competition - and this thread suggests that it is coming.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/03/13 08:05am

Here is another video, which does a somewhat decent walkaround of the Travato.


Posted By: Davydd on 05/03/13 08:23am

mlts22 wrote:

Here is another video, which does a somewhat decent walkaround of the Travato.

That video is mostly about the ERA not the Travato. There was just a little bit on the Travato at the end and not a complete walkaround.

However, there were two interesting aspects about the ERA. First, the graphics are greatly improved and simplified yet those that have been ERA name stripping will have a harder time taking the side ERAs off this design.

Secondly, it looks as if they have lowered the bed in the back on this one. Has the bed height which gave a lot of storage underneath been a complaint?


Posted By: bobojay5 on 05/03/13 08:57am

Davydd wrote:

mlts22 wrote:

Here is another video, which does a somewhat decent walkaround of the Travato.

That video is mostly about the ERA not the Travato. There was just a little bit on the Travato at the end and not a complete walkaround.

However, there were two interesting aspects about the ERA. First, the graphics are greatly improved and simplified yet those that have been ERA name stripping will have a harder time taking the side ERAs off this design.

Secondly, it looks as if they have lowered the bed in the back on this one. Has the bed height which gave a lot of storage underneath been a complaint?


The ERA in the video is a 70X David. Fold down couch


Posted By: gerrym51 on 05/03/13 09:01am

RobertRyan wrote:

mumkin wrote:

I think Ford and the new Chrysler vans will push Sprinter out as quickly as the RV converters can get up to speed.

The 3.6 Litre Gas engine will be a liability. It appears they are not offering the Diesel like they do here. Not exactly great thinking there. The Insides of the Winnebago version, especially the collapsing bed look a bit pedestrian.
mlts22 wrote:

I wonder what its towing capacity will be. The ability to safely use a hitch mounted cargo rack or even a small enclosed trailer will come into handy.

Not much. You get a lot more with the diesel.

The Diesel makes a big difference in the towing performance




Mr. Ryan,

you are saying the diesel desire from the point of view of europe/australia which is predominently diesel. here in the USA most people DON"T want diesels. We want gasoline. the reason sprinter based
b's are mostly bought here is because WE HAVE NO CHOICE. if you want the physical dimensions of a sprinter you have to take diesel-thats all there is. the combination of gas transit/provan will decimate sprinter b.

Have a nice day


Posted By: bobojay5 on 05/03/13 09:08am

I see that they've went back to the push button cabinetry locks in the Travato. Those are nice to have, although we've found in the ERA that they are not really necessary unless one does off roading and keeps heavy stuff in the upper cabinets.

RobertRyan, this 3.6 engine that Chrysler is using is a sweetheart of an engine. Very popular here in the USA on Chrysler products. The highway patrol here in my state has went to it on all the Dodge Chargers as it will do 135mph and out accelerate their previous V8 engine Crown Vics. The Provan has a 6spd auto trans vs a 5spd in the rear wheel drive applications up till 2012 in Chrysler products. The Ram 1500 pickups have this engine now with an 8spd trans and push 25mpg.

The diesel will be around but maybe not through WGO as it has a clutchless manual transmission that has to be shifted. Americans have become lazy and won't pay $85k for a vehicle with a stick shift, (or most any other stick shift car/truck)


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/03/13 10:16am

I just checked lengths -- 20 feet is as long as it gets for the Dodge vans. At first I thought this would be something competing against the Roadtrek SS Agile, but by a feature per feature comparison, it is definitely aimed at the competition's Chevy vans than the Sprinter offerings.


Posted By: Davydd on 05/03/13 11:11am

Here are your choices...



20'-10" is their maximum length.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/03/13 02:23pm

bobojay5 wrote:

RobertRyan, this 3.6 engine that Chrysler is using is a sweetheart of an engine. Very popular here in the USA on Chrysler products. The highway patrol here in my state has went to it on all the Dodge Chargers as it will do 135mph

As a car engine it is fine. The Pentastar is the base engine for Jeeps sold here. Very few are sold, as most people use their Cherokees, Grand Cherokees for towing. In those cases it is the 3 Lire Diesel and to a lesser extent the 5.7 Hemi that is used.
http://www.jeep.com.au/features-a-specs/........apability/jeep-grand-cherokee-powertrain
Quote:

Jeep Grand Cherokee Powertrain

The Jeep® Grand Cherokee is re-imagined and re-engineered to perform heroically in all driving conditions and environments. With a choice of either the 3.6-litre Pentastar™ V6 engine, 5.7-litre HEMI® V8 engine, or 3.0-litre CRD turbo diesel V6 engine, the all-new Grand Cherokee will power all of your adventures.



Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/03/13 02:35pm

Daydd wrote:

20'-10" is their maximum length.

Here it varies from 20-27ft. longest Motorhome the 27ft ones are on a side by side Dually arrangement.

A similar 3 Litre Diesel in the RWD IVECO Daily becomes a MONSTER. The IVECO Dail 70c Van has a 10,000lb payload!
A IVECO Daily 65c and a 32ft 5ver.

A 35ft Forest River Silverback




* This post was last edited 05/03/13 03:03pm by RobertRyan *


Posted By: Davydd on 05/03/13 03:12pm

We're talking about Bs in this forum not Cs.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/03/13 03:14pm

Unfortunately, the US vans are different from the Aussies. The two separate axles are not sold here, and all the vans and cutaways here are front wheel drive. An IVECO engine would be nice (perhaps a Hemi for a gasser), but right now, it is a pipe dream, as there may be a chance of Fiat just abandoning the van market in the US for good if they get into bad times again.

I'm guessing Winnebago had a choice -- they could either get the DRW chassis and lose the space underneath to the second set of tires, or they go with the SRW chassis and be close to the GVWR of the vehicle. This is ironic, as the Promaster is the best in class when it comes to weight capacity. The Promaster has a CCC of 5125 pounds, then the Sprinter 3500 at 5020, and the Transit with no specs out yet, but in Europe, it tops out at 3670 pounds.

I assume the Travato is a "version 1.0" upfit, made to test the waters and gauge interest. I think things will get better, with more interesting floorplans as time permits. I just hope they can move to a DRW configuration so they are not at the razor's edge of weight on the vehicle.

Of course, it would be nice to see a bigger diesel engine, but it might be difficult, as I don't know any transaxles that can take a large amount of torque.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/03/13 08:01pm

Dayvdd wrote:

We're talking about Bs in this forum not Cs.

Right you are an IVECO Daily Class B. Sprinter sized





Posted By: mumkin on 05/03/13 09:25pm

Davydd wrote:

mlts22 wrote:

Here is another video, which does a somewhat decent walkaround of the Travato.

That video is mostly about the ERA not the Travato. There was just a little bit on the Travato at the end and not a complete walkaround.

I thought it was pretty complete. Only the first minute was the exterior of an ERA. The last two minutes of the three minute video was of the exterior - didn't show us the storage though - and most of the interior of the Travato. It didn't show the bed down, but showed the bath, galley, fridge... and two men using the dinette area.

The way the bed folds up is interesting.


Posted By: Davydd on 05/04/13 08:08am

mumkin wrote:

Davydd wrote:

mlts22 wrote:

Here is another video, which does a somewhat decent walkaround of the Travato.

That video is mostly about the ERA not the Travato. There was just a little bit on the Travato at the end and not a complete walkaround.

I thought it was pretty complete. Only the first minute was the exterior of an ERA. The last two minutes of the three minute video was of the exterior - didn't show us the storage though - and most of the interior of the Travato. It didn't show the bed down, but showed the bath, galley, fridge... and two men using the dinette area.

The way the bed folds up is interesting.

The first time I watched that video and posted my comment it got cut off on me. I watched it a second time to see the whole video.

I'm not impressed with this effort.

How do you stand at or sit on the toilet with the wheel well in the way?

The kitchen counter has no counter space as it is taken up by the sink and stove with covers. That's nice to use for temporary storing of stuff in camp but not for cooking.

My guess is the bed is at best 54" wide. That's a standard double width but in this day and age not very desirable for two people. Nipping out the corner for the bathroom door doesn't help.

They put an ottoman blocking the sliding door opening I assume to be part of a bed extension (is it?) as well as to be able to sit at the table. The table is an odd shape. The rear seat faces forward. The ottoman faces sideways. The cab seats are shoved forward to enable the table to fit. If the cab seats don't turn to face the table then this is the most ill designed setup I have ever seen in a B. If the cab seats turned you would think there would be no need for the ottoman and could extend the kitchen counter over.

There appears to be a real lack of storage other than a huge catch all potential under the bed. You have to balance storage with people and to imply this B could sleep 3-4 people is ridiculous.

The maximum 20'-10" long van which is 18" longer than a short Sprinter (RT Agile), 11" shorter than the pre-2007 Sprinters (my former 2005 P-W Plateau), 23" shorter than current regular length Sprinters (my 2011 GWV Legend) and 39" shorter than extended Sprinters (ERA) is going to be a challenge for designers. So base cost will be $10,000-$12,000 less than the Sprinter it appears and maybe cheaper still simply because it will be impossible to provide as much inside as the Sprinters. As it appears it will have a niche because of cost but will not be a direct competitor with the Sprinter on comfort and features. It will have design limitations similar to the short wheel base Sprinters.


Posted By: stan909 on 05/04/13 09:05am

I would think the target for this van would be young families 2 adults 2'kids. Soccer mom. Easy to drive and park. Even the Roadtreks that supposedly sleep 4 people don't really sleep 4 adults. Bang for the buck. I think the Era is hands down the winner in class Bs but for many who would also want a daily driver it is too much of a good thing. Winnebago probably should have gone for a short Sprinter instead but there is something to be said for having a gasoline based B which until now (or rather,the fall) they did not.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/04/13 03:40pm

Dayvdd wrote:

I'm not impressed with this effort.


I would agree with your comments. As well as I posted before ,the interior looks terrible ordinary.
My Sister had to stay in my very elderly Uncles 2007 IVECO Class B(No extra bed in house). I had previously seen it when he was driving(Now trying to sell it).Although a Custom conversion it is vastly better than this Winnebago.


Posted By: free radical on 05/04/13 04:10pm

bobojay5 wrote:

Tonight Winnebago introduced a new class B offering on the new Ram Promaster van calling it the "Travato".
More info to come.

I dislike front wheel drive,so will never buy that rig,,


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/04/13 04:19pm

Here is a diesel Ducato Class B, in the US sense with an automatic adjustable height bed(Not fold down)
Video below.
Trakka Torino Ducato based Class B

* This post was edited 05/04/13 04:25pm by RobertRyan *


Posted By: loving retirement on 05/04/13 05:40pm

RobertRyan wrote:

Here is a diesel Ducato Class B, in the US sense with an automatic adjustable height bed(Not fold down)
Video below.
Trakka Torino Ducato based Class B

A number of very nice features not available up to this point in North America. Should be very interesting for the next few years what PW, RT and others do with their B's.


Posted By: Davydd on 05/04/13 06:03pm

RobertRyan wrote:

Here is a diesel Ducato Class B, in the US sense with an automatic adjustable height bed(Not fold down)
Video below.
Trakka Torino Ducato based Class B

That's a design that makes a lot more sense. The most interesting thing is that slide out of the way toilet. Here is a PDF brochure of the Trakka Torino Xtra.

Trakka Torino Xtra


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/04/13 06:27pm

loving retirement wrote:

A number of very nice features not available up to this point in North America. Should be very interesting for the next few years what PW, RT and others do with their B's.

The Diesel powered alternate outdoor cooktop,hot water and internal heating are something you would not find in a NA Class B.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/04/13 07:13pm

I only know one rig that offers a Webasto diesel cooktop, flat plate heater, diesel furnace, and other features. That is a custom upfitted Sportsmobile, but the upfit cost is $68053.00 on top of the cost of the Sprinter with the proper options (smaller DEF tank) which is 50,000 MSRP.

So, for the features that even come close to an Aussie B, it will be US $118,053.00, or AUD 114,459.00


Posted By: AsheGuy on 05/04/13 07:19pm

RobertRyan wrote:

The Diesel powered alternate outdoor cooktop,hot water and internal heating are something you would not find in a NA Class B.
That's because the US, at least, is diesel adverse except in heavy trucks and equipment compared to most of the world. You can see it in these forums and US buying habits.

One of my pet peeves is that Jeep hasn't come out with a current technology diesel version of the Wrangler in the US instead of working as hard as they can to dilute their brand with the "car" Jeeps that are Jeep in name only. I've had four Jeeps (Cherokees and Wrangler) but no longer have one due to their miserable mileage. Of course, I have given up 4-wheel drive altogether for a 40 MPG VW Golf TDI. So, far one winter without regrets. Of course, it hardly snowed here this year.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/04/13 09:13pm

Asheguy wrote:

One of my pet peeves is that Jeep hasn't come out with a current technology diesel version of the Wrangler in the US instead of working as hard as they can to dilute their brand with the "car" Jeeps that are Jeep in name only. I've had four Jeeps (Cherokees and Wrangler) but no longer have one due to their miserable mileage

When diesel was introduced into sedans in Australia, same sort of reaction as in the US. People here thought diesel was fine for Trucks and SUV's but a sedan needed "more performance". In the last 3years the sale of diesel sedans has increased 50% here. A Lot of that is do to the surprising advances in Diesel technology. BMW has just releases a 3 Litre diesel SUV, roughly 5000lbs in weight but goes from 0-60mph in 5.1 seconds.
I suspect the uptake of diesel for other than HDT Trucks and some SUV's will be a much more gradual process in the US. You are now getting more European vans, A RAM 1500 with a small diesel and I have noticed the US Army is now bringing European designed Cabover HDT/MDT trucks into its fleet. So changes are happening.


Posted By: topless on 05/05/13 07:10am

free radical wrote:

bobojay5 wrote:

Tonight Winnebago introduced a new class B offering on the new Ram Promaster van calling it the "Travato".
More info to come.

I dislike front wheel drive,so will never buy that rig,,


Front wheel drive AND a Fiat? Never, ever, even consider one.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/05/13 01:41pm

topless wrote:

Front wheel drive AND a Fiat? Never, ever, even consider one.

They well and truly outsell Sprinters in Europe as Class B bases.


Posted By: Davydd on 05/05/13 02:29pm

The Sprinter will remain in a class by itself because the Ram Ducato can't equal the Sprinter in size and design freedom. Their competition will be with the Ford Transit and in looking at the specs on both now I think the Ford Transit has greater design opportunities.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/05/13 03:21pm

The Ford Transit will have more upfit ability because it is RWD, so it can be upfitted with a third party 4x4 system like Quigley's or Sportmobile's.

The Ducato is FWD, so it would be hard to attach a driveshaft to a transaxle, as well as make clearance for the transfer cases. This means that for almost all intents, a 4x4 conversion is out of the question.

Ford also will have the six speed auto across the board. To boot, the EcoBoost is getting over its teething problems, getting 20+ MPG numbers on heavier vehicles, although this is heavily dependent on how heavy one's foot is.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/05/13 03:36pm

Dayvvd wrote:

The Sprinter will remain in a class by itself because the Ram Ducato can't equal the Sprinter in size and design freedom. Their competition will be with the Ford Transit and in looking at the specs on both now I think the Ford Transit has greater design opportunities.

The US Sprinter has it over the RAM Promaster version of the Ducato in size. Here we have the equal in size to the Sprinter, the VW Crafter (basically the same thing but built by VW)and the IVECO Daily Vans.
The Ducato can be stretched to 27-28ft with the double axle version.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/05/13 03:52pm

mlts22 wrote:

The Ducato is FWD, so it would be hard to attach a driveshaft to a transaxle, as well as make clearance for the transfer cases. This means that for almost all intents, a 4x4 conversion is out of the question.

They do sell a 4x4 version of the Ducato in Europe, equivalent to a Sportmobile.


As well Mercedes does sell a 4 X4 Conversion from the factory.




Posted By: mlts22 on 05/05/13 04:11pm

Everywhere else in the world gets three choices for Ducatos: FWD, RWD, and 4WD. Here in the US, it is FWD or nothing. Similar with Sprinters, where you can get 4WD by paying a couple grand across the pond.

Europe has a lot of choices for very useful vehicles. The US really doesn't.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/05/13 04:59pm

mlts22 wrote:

Europe has a lot of choices for very useful vehicles. The US really doesn't.

I think one reason is to keep costs down"too" many unique vehicles would drive up costs.
Here is another 4 X4 Van deriative from Europe. It has 32forward speeds in its AMT gearbox(Automatic and Manual Gearbox). It has a 3,850lb payload or a 5,600lb payload Off Road. Performance not far off the Unimog . A IVECO DAILY 4 x4. Just been released in Australia,it stands 9ft


* This post was edited 01/22/14 01:58pm by an administrator/moderator *


Posted By: McK on 05/05/13 05:22pm

RobertRyan

Thanks for all of the great post on this and other topics. I enjoy seeing what is available in other parts of the world.


Robert
2006 Sportsmobile Sprinter



Posted By: Davydd on 05/05/13 06:38pm

Sometimes the other parts of the world come over to us. Here is a CS-Reisemobile DUO short 144" wheelbase 4WD Sprinter from Germany parked next to us at Laird Hot Springs in Canada.




Posted By: mlts22 on 05/07/13 07:50am

Looks like the specs are "meh" from what was listed on the class B forum. 14 gallon FW tank, 4 gallon water heater, 11 gallon black, 15 gallon grey, 6 gallons LP (80% usable), 24 gallons gasoline, exterior width, 6' 8".

It appears to be competing with the Chevy vans mainly, probably the closest would be the 170 Versatile.


Posted By: markopolo on 05/07/13 04:29pm

Here's the spec sheet and floor plan. Note: this is still pre-production so there may be changes.





Maybe not for everyone but I can see a family with young kids choosing this a second multi-purpose vehicle.

It would be like a small apartment for a single traveler. Leave the rear bed set-up, permanent dinette.


Posted By: RobertRyan on 05/09/13 12:38am

markpolo wrote:

Here's the spec sheet and floor plan. Note: this is still pre-production so there may be changes.

This Class C version has a GVWR of 11,000lbs is 26ft long and has a payload of 2640lb.



Posted By: topless on 05/09/13 06:17am

RobertRyan wrote:

topless wrote:

Front wheel drive AND a Fiat? Never, ever, even consider one.

They well and truly outsell Sprinters in Europe as Class B bases.

That may happen, but I owned one Fiat is was a POS and I've owned 2 FWD and vowed never again. Add those 2 together and you get a vehicle that I will never drive.


Posted By: Sunnygirl on 05/09/13 08:24am

Now that I've seen the floor plan with the bed dimensions, I'm wondering what the target market for the Travato is. The largest bed is 46x75. That's an inch closer to twin bed size than it is to full size. I don't see that as a reasonable bed size for two adults, so I can't see this being the choice of a couple travelling alone - unless they like sleeping in separate beds. The other bed, at 42x72, isn't big enough for a tall adult, and is barely wider than a standard twin size bed. There's no way two of my kids would peacefully share that bed. So I can't see this rig working well for a family with more than one child, either. It seems to me like a compromise that won't fully satisfy anyone, except maybe a single adult travelling with a single child. Maybe my expectations for comfortable sleeping are too high.


Posted By: mlts22 on 05/09/13 08:45am

I am guessing this floorplan is something to get a concept model out the door. Once ProMasters get into upfitters' hands, I'm sure we will see better ones.

For example, Roadtrek made a number of engineering decisions/compromises (which had to take a while to perfect) to make the SS Agile usable. Both beds have cabinets over where the feet go, the bathroom sink is on a drawer, and there are only the two front seats for a table. There is always the aisle shower concept which for 1-2 people might be a workable idea, and allows for a much smaller amount of the vehicle to be devoted to a bathroom, although it would be nice to have a dedicated bathroom sink, as opposed to a sink inlay.

I'm eager to see what can be done with the relatively limited length of this chassis. The Transit will be of similar dimensions.

The ironic thing is that about six months ago, I posted asking about rigs in the 20 foot range, finding only SMB and RT offerings. Looks like by the end of 2014, we will have a lot more choices for the 20-21 foot length vans.

* This post was edited 05/09/13 09:19am by mlts22 *


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