If one is going to post the same question twice, in the same forum, not look for the original......BYE BYE.......
I believe I close fewer, delete fewer posts etc than some of the other mods, be that good or bad in some cases........
How are you good to 10K? I can see the 8K, just as my sons trucks are, ie similar chassis's but a GM and Toyota. As they have to buy an 8K plate too. I've always under stood I get what I pay for, not the extra you are claiming..........
I can see a potential for the 2K, in that an actual wt and measures leo ie a cveo will give you up to a ton over before ticketing you. You will also get a 10 day up your plate amount too. Been there done that in my mdt........
Reality is, you can get to about 20K without going over the actual state law. again as you say, I would not recommend one go this high of actual gvw.....
Personally, I would not call this an upgrade generally speaking. From a yr standpoint sure, but total upgrade......sideways move reality.
Both should tow your trailer about the same, assuming similar HP specs of the motor. The Ex may be better in that it probably has a 6 sp trans vs a 4 in the Ave.
Just my 02 on this.
TYpical SW rigs have in the 2200-2600 lbs EMPTY on the RA. You will have about 300-500 lbs available on the FA. The RA plus FA max loads will be around 15% MORE than the manufacture GVWR. Do not ask why, been debated sooooooo many times on here.
From a LEGAL stand point, you will most always get the max axel load, RVnet wt police will give you the gvwr to work with. If you have a paid for ton license, that is what an LEO/CVEO will give you if pulled over.
Reality is, a SW GM truck will have in the 3-4000 lbs range to work with for passengers, hitch wt etc. Majority will be on the RA.
These numbers are from my experience with GM's going back to my first NEW one in 81. RA empty numbers vary little between cab models, FA wts DO vary a bunch in the empty FA numbers. Example, my 2000 reg cab has all of 2900 on the fa, my 96 diesel CC model had 2400, both in the 2200-2300 lbs range on the rear.
hmmmmm a 300+ hp motor moving 20K lbs, should not be an issue. Meanwhile, I move upwards of 26K with a 175/335 idi7.3 motor in my mdt! talk about slooooooooooow. But I get there! safe and sanely mind you! in my case, works great for the mostly less than 25 miles from home base. If I had to go cross country, over high elevations ie over 6000' ALL the time......wrong motor! I saves some $8000 in 92 when I bought this vs a turbo rig that had maybe 25-30 more hp. That relates to about 5 mph up some grades locally! when I finally sell this thing, both setups will net me about $1500-2000 at the end of the day. So how did paying $8000 more help me?
Op may be in the same situation as I am with my Navistar MDT. bought literally for a 20 yr useage, one will NOT NET much more than the other when it is sold. Or it could be going straight to a junk yard, where they only pay by lbs of the truck wt! so maybe 300 more lbs at .30 per lb!
With my 05 dmax, I got about 2 mpg less than a sw equal. Both had the same axel gearing, size etc. BUT, being as you add about 150 lbs in tires, this is about equal to adding 1500 lbs to a sw bed from an hp needed standpoint. ALong with another 200-300 lbs in fenders, extra springs, some cases ie ford at one time a .003" thicker frame for the dually, all add up to extra needed HP, which will chew up fuel mileage. This is equal to adding about a ton of wt to a single wheel as far as HP needed to get it going vs a SW.
If you go with GM, IIRC a newer rig with the 6.0 gas, a SW has a 10.5" RA vs possibly an 11.5" RA in the dually. Could be wrong on this, so a bit more hp moving wt, which again, takes about a 10-1 equal vs sitting there wt.
Lower mpg setups like a gas rig, will probably be closer to a gallon, but could be closer to 2 as with the diesels too.
Just my general experience with multiple dual vs single setups since 81.
Issue is not tow capacity per say, but PAYLOAD! If you do not have the payload, you do not have the tow capacity. I have ALWAYS been better off with trucks slightly underpower, correct payload, than one with the power and too little payload. My mdt is a grand example of that. 175/336 IDI7.3L diesel. While it is not a cross country rig, for the local towing of my equipment trailer that is 12K, its great.
Really, one should setup the truck initially based on payload, be it a single or dual setup, then power/drivetrain based on your useage. NOT my useage, or some egg-in-eer/sales person/warranty dept in detroit.......BUT how and where you will use the rig!
Have to agree with Texan. An EB would not have made much more than a foot or two in the situation you described. Your service brakes, controller etc ALL needed to be in top order. Other wise, your changing out your shorts.
Hopefully you also stated the distance wrong per say, is that supposed to be 10' as you typed, or a whopping 10" as you may have ment?
I've had the same situation towing my 12k equipment trailer behind my 12k empty MDT. The service brakes on the truck are rather d to stop the 24k total if the trailer would be parked on the truck. Even with that ability, I have had to change my shorts in this combo!
If you can not stop 5 tons with out an exhaust brake, somewhere some brakes are not working up to snuff! I've upwards of 6 tons and 2K in the bed of a sw truck, and had no issues stopping, EXCEPT, when the trailer brakes were not adjusted correctly! I've never owned a rig with an exhaust brake, altho have used them. Yes they do help, but if the brakes could not stop the load in a legal or safe amount of time, I was not going to depend on the exhaust brake to get me there. I had other issues to worry about.
Back to initial question. Can you tow heavy with a SW truck. Sure, but like all things great and small, are the design limits of the thing capable of handling the loads involved. This includes chassis, drivetrain, suspension etc. There are class 8 tandems axel rigs with 17K per axel running with singles. so you can get tires rated to 21K in a legal and engineer rated to max axel load limits.
The bottom line is that a person lost their life, children were injured and will never spend another day with their father!!
Why, it appears that the trailer builder didn't include brakes or safety chains and the person towing the trailer appeared to be negligent.
The driver, trailer builder and owner of the trailer should go to jail!
The requirement for trailer brakes varies from state to state. One can buy a trailer in one state where it is a requirement above say 3500 lbs, go into there state where it is say 1000 lbs, and tow something. So is this really the trailer manufactures issue on something like this?
Safety chains depending upon the design, how installed, could also be removed by the owner buyer for what ever reason. Again, should the trailer manufacture be liable for the owner/operator of the trailers negligence in an issue like this?
"IF" the trailer builder is a corporation, you will not be able to get the "owner(s)" to go to jail, as they are protected a majority of the time for issues like this, same with employee's. The only thing you can get from them is money in a civil suit. The jail time has to come from a legal suit, and legal will not usually go after a manufacture. And even then, since there is more than one building and designing the trailer, hard to pin point the % of who is really at fault. See some of BenK's posts in regard to the suits he has had to deal with.
Then you have the trailer hitch manufacture, as one of my hitches says, 5000 lbs limit, EXCEPT as used to tow a mobil home, then it is 15K or 20K lbs of trailer! Probably because it will be a one or two time useage vs potentially daily!
Many ways to answer the original issue, who is at fault etc. Same with the licensing issue, is it the door plate? or the paid for license? or some combo of both?
I gained any where from 1-2 mpg taking off my TT and pulling my bobcat and trailer that weighed 3000 lbs MORE than the TT. ALL due to aerodynamics, ie less wind resistance! When I pulled my track hoe on the same trailer as the bobcat to eastern was, total gcwr was the same, I got 2 mpg, and was typically a gear taller and 5-7 mph faster on the grades than with my TT. AGAIN, due to aerodynamics!
A deflector should help some, big rigs are using deflectors a lot. How much you get in mpg, and is it worth the coin, how long is the ROI? can all make up whether it is worth it or not needs to be decided. Any trailer with smooth(er) sides than you have now, more angled front, lower to the ground etc, even if the same weight, will/should net better mpg's. Takes about 105 hp to move 15K at 60 mph with 70sq ft of frontal area, 135hp at 15K/ 90sq ft, same HP as 25K at 70 sq ft! Weight is not always the end all be all of mpgs and amount of fuel to be used.
A van would have been first choice to tow with with my family of 6. BUT, alas, I had a crew cab pickup....I could use it at work, the van not so well. Hence decision. BUT Ex had a smaller Astro van we used to get the family around otherwise. Luved the thing. Boyz in back seat, Girlz in front seat, space between them to set books, toyz etc. More head room too.
Only real issue with a van, and that is aftermarket fixable, is 4wd. Nice since we spent more time in the RV trailer from December to April using it as a ski hut at local ski area's for the weekend. $wd was nice on the bad road days, even if I had to legally speaking, chain up. Chains on rear axle, front axel also driving, made for better handling going up, and less issues with the front tires locking up even tho I had 4wabs.
If you mostly summer camp, or way off road, a G80 optioned GM van would work well for most trailers, as long as you remember that you may need in reality, a 3500 van from a payload need standpoint, not a 2500. My family was in the 1200-1300 lb range when I had 4 adult size teens, add in HW in the 700-1400 lbs range depending upon trailer size, a few other odds and ends in the van, you need 2500-3000 lbs of payload! many 25's in passenger config do not have that unless a 35 series is ordered.
Here the trade in value is subtracted from purchase price before tax is applied. If you get $15K trade in on your old vehicle toward a new $40K vehicle, you would be taxed on $25k.
With upwards of 9.8% sales tax, that can add up to a few $$ in savings, along with not having to sell it yourself etc. I prefer to trade, for just the latter reason in and of itself. My 05 dually I sold thru craigs list, let my son do the work for me. Turns out, the buyer about my age, also let his mid 20 something son do the shopping/finding etc online also.....worked out great from what I can tell.
IIRC 4wheeler magazine a decade or so ago, took a rwd LS equiped rig across the Rubicon trailer. THey made it with out too many issues. I do seem to recall it may have been a 4x that they choose not to lock the front, ut could be remembering wrong......I can hardly remember yesterday sometimes, much less an article from a decade ago......
So rwd with the proper driver, TIRES for the task, can get places just fine in some instances. 4wd a bit better some times, worst others......4lo is nice. BUT with manufactures finally putting decent low first gears in autos, 4lo is not needed as much to keep tranny temps low. That is what I miss about having 4lo/4wd with my c2500. A way the heck too tall first and reverse, gets me stalled where as I have the HP/torque, just not in a manner that I can use to get the tires to turn at times........
Choose you poison for how you drive.
the best thing about 4 wheel trucks is they can be pull by a 2 wheel truck when they get stuck.
Yeah, Ok. That's close......
Depends upon how they are stuck, and what is around......dropped my 88 K3500 right front wheel in a ditch, 4wd could not get me out, but could with a rwd toyota 4 banger to pull it back, as I lifted the front end out of the ditch with my bobcat. voila, truck was free. Yota driver got a kick out of that one! FE was bottomed out majorly! Even the yota driver admitted, his dually Fummins would not have pulled it out in 4lo! it would have needed the bobcat to lift the front tire out of the predicament it was in.
4wd is NOT the end all be all of every situation!
A 2010 rig with 653K miles. That is driving many miles a year, like over or close to 100K! A hotshot rig? That is doing pretty good no matter the brand. 653K km maybe, miles.........not so sure about that one. Yeah, I've owned my share of GM's no frods, durdges, a couple of yota's, one NEEsheet! a few cornbinders.....
anyway.......I have close to 600K miles driving 3 different IFS Gm rigs with no issues in the suspension other than idler arms. 70K miles per, then time to replace!!
My insurance went up about $200/yr going from a 2005 Ford F250 to a 2015 Ram 5500 with the same coverage. I am two weight classes heavier that makes my license tags $30/yr more due to additional fees.
Don't forget that *****in 9.8% WA tax to add a little more to the bottom line cost!
I believe he is in BC so no sales tax. That is only added to the cost, if you trade in value of trade in reduces ST total.
His total wt lic fee would go up about $30, no tax added if in wa st for a 4 or 6K heavier wt tag. ALL rigs here pay wt tax at about $15 per ton, be it personal or commercial in nature.
I have a 98 chevy dually pulling 14,320 scaled pounds fully loaded. I have no problem staying up with trucks going uphill and love the way it handles. Do I rush. No. One thing no one has mentioned is rear end gearing. It's important. You want something in the 4:10 range.
I've had my 98 chevy 6.5 for 3 years now and still love it. I did some work to it since it was used and abused, but once done, I have no fear in taking it anywhere. Here are some of the stats for you.
pdm and mods $300.00
Right upper control arm assy. $65.00
Idle shutoff switch $60.00
That's it. Sure beats the heck out of pricing a new truck and yes, all the labor is my own. Parts from ebay and the like. This truck was a construction vehicle in its prior life.
Original cost per the paperwork I found in the glovebox $53030.00. What a deal I got. :)
Gotta ask ,53K for a 98 chevy dually, or was that the paperwork for repairs :) My 99 Ford 7.3 was just over 32K new. It would be hard to believe Chevy was getting 20K more
Without going back a page or two, could the fellow with the 6.5 be using canadian funds vs US. Things seem to cost a bit more to the north than here in the south...........
I paid 28 plus tax/license for my 96 SW CC manual tranny 6.5........