I prefer actual experience of what actually works vs scientific equations.
Everyone knows ya' gotta' have a one ton DRW to pull a popup" cause I read it on ......RV.net :R
That is false, you need a tandem class 8 to pull a popup!
Please get your facts straight!
From my understanding GM's cargo capacity accounts for a 150lb person in every seating position and a full tank of fuel.
This is true IF you use the number in the glove box for max camper load. The door sticker payload is the sum of the cargo plus the seatbelts time 150.
Power no issue, where did you get the payload info from? if from a brochure, the payload is probably less than that. If off the door sticker, then that payload is what you have.
Why make statements off the top of your head like this? It helps NO ONE.
My 2011 2500HD has the exact same axle and wheel bearings as the 3500HD trucks. Only difference is that my axle is rated at 6700 lbs. which is 200 lbs. greater than that of the 3500HD SRW. The rear axle weight of my truck is less than 3200 lbs. leaving a payload of 3500 lbs. in its stock configuration. I added SuperSprings to boost this to 5,000 lbs.
Then the limiting factor is the two rims and tires at the rear axle. With the 17" GM aluminum rims the load capacity for the pair is 7600 lbs. and I put on tires rated at 3750@80 PSI or 7500 lbs. for the pair. That provides a payload of 7500 minus 3200 or 4300 lbs. for the truck. I could boost that by going to 19.5 rims and tires which would have a rear axle load capacity of 8800 lbs. and still be under the load rating for the AAM axle and wheel bearings which is 10,900 lbs.
Payload ratings from all the truck manufacturers are calculated for each truck based on how it was configured at the factory. The same trucks but with different wheels and tires can have payload rating difference of more than 50%. Go to any dealer's lot and you can verify this in minutes and not rely on what you "think" is true.
Actually, what you say it true to a degree. BUT, if one really wants to worry about what one can do, I can get 10500 lbs on the RA and not do a dang thing to it, as long as I have the correct paid for license tag! Not that I would recommend it mind you! And most of the SW RA wts have been in the 2000-2500 lbs range for ALL of my trucks like the one the OP is considering empty wt wise. Dually's have been in the 2800-3500 range. My MDT is 5900 of a 15500 rating on the rear empty! That one is licensed at 26K lbs, I could go to 32K with all of 18K worth of tires and springs........I know all the tricks of what is legal vs recommended vs _______________
How about this answer, If I was to put my family of 6 in your truck, I would have NO tow capacity! that is correct! At the end of the day, what you can tow safely will depend upon the payload of the tow rig, AFTER you put people, pets, other gear etc in it. If you have no payload after this, you can not generally speaking, safely tow a trailer. This is true from small trucks, ie the 4 banger midget trucks, up to 5 and 6 axel semi's with 80-100K gvwrs for the truck alone!
Best way to figure out max trailer for me, has been take remaining payload, divide by the % hitch wt I need, and I have the max trailer I can safely tow! If one has 1000 lbs, divide by .10(10%), and you have a max 10K trailer. if you are pulling a heavy pin wt 5w at 25%(.25), you have a max trailer of 4000 lbs. ALL for the same truck.
I also take a ratio I learned about many years ago, of no trailer bigger than 2x teh grawr of the tow rig. SO if you have a 4K grawr, then no trailer larger than 8K lbs. WHich might be less than the above figure, or more!
There is no simple way to say what is safe or not. As one can also be under the gcwr grawr etc etc etc, and still be cited for towing an unsafe trailer if it is swaying more than IIRC 12-18" per side from center. You will also not be able to move the trailer until you show the LEO that the trailer can pull in a straight line!
There is a LOT to safe and sane towing that many do not tell you, know about etc.
Go to a 3500 SRW for 500 more lbs of payload?...
no, 1500 pounds. GVWR goes from 10,000 to 11,500...
Vehicle Series Hitch Type Maximum Tongue Weight
2500HD Fifth-Wheel Gooseneck 1134 kg (2,500 lbs)
3500 Single Rear Wheels Fifth-Wheel Gooseneck 1360 kg (3,000 lbs)
What you listed from the owners manual is not payload, it's pin weight. As mentioned GVWR does up 1500 pounds, so payload probably 1450 of that. Extended cab 4WD diesel GM has about 2600-2800 pounds of payload. 2WD 300 pounds more. So if you have 3000 pounds of payload with 2500 pounds of pin weight, what about the 250 pound receiver and two overweight adult males?
SWR 3500 is my recommendation, but they are harder to find usually. Many people just plan on air bags and 3/4 ton because the power is plentiful.
Looking at the 2011 brochure it list payload of the 2011 siverado 2500 extended cab 2wd with Duramax 6.6L Diesel max payload 3205 lbs
The RED part is where your problem is, You are going by brochure weights. IF you get a striped truck, ie no options, then you may have 3200 lbs of payload. If you get power windows, you have lost about 30 lbs per door. Cruise you lose 2 lbs. leather bucket power heated seats, another 400-600 lbs! At the end of the day, an ext cab diesel with weigh between 6500 and 7500 lbs sitting there ready to work, depending upon the interior trim level.
At one time, there were two other posters with 05 dually dmax trucks just like my old one. One weighed 7200 lbs, it was a base model rwd, mine weighed 7300 lbs, an LS 4wd, the other was 7600 lbs, it was a leather pkg setup. That is 400 lbs difference in payload between them. NONE of them had the brochure payload amount, the base was still 2-300 lbs more tare, ie lack of payload vs the brochure.
Don't I just need to get a dually?
Actually, just buy the true heavy duty truck, ie a DOT class 8 tractor! Do not think about towing with a light duty truck, ie anything up to a 13500 gvwr/1 ton truck. then only tent trailer/single axle trailers to 3500 lbs with a medium duty truck, ie 13501-33K gvwr.
My story and I am sticken to et! yea r wright!
Says similar things I learned when I first started towing in the late 70's. No trailer bigger than 2x the GRAWR, or max gcwr is 2x gvwr or 3x grawr. Then you have a trailer that is not too big per say for the tow rig chassis. From here, you spec the drivetrain to YOUR performance specs, not some engineer/J2082ASEA specs which are totally useless for the type of towing I personally do. IE I go up grades to 30%, there spec is a minimum of 12%, I want speeds of 40-45 on a 5-6% grade, theirs is 35min on a 4% grade. So my performance specs are probably way the heck tougher to meet than those puny useless specs!
Here's some more testing of the HD trucks now including the Chevy.
Where are the heavy duty trucks? I only see light duty DOT class 3 trucks, no heavy duty over 55K gvwr tandem rear axel trucks. Anything under 13500 gvwr is a light duty truck. 13501-33K is a medium duty, next up is a tandem, most of those are 50-55K and over!
My guess is since one supplier usually supplies more than just 1 company you will more recalls from other manufacturers.
THis is probably true, so potentially ANY of the North American built vehicles no matter the brand badge may have issues with the manufacture.
One thing to remember, hence why towing the motor size does not seem to matter. It takes a certain amount of "calories/btu's etc" to move a given item. so no matter the motor or type, that energy useage is the same. BUT, the same occurs when empty, but some motors like the larger ones, will use more fuel just because they can not shut down as much as a smaller one.
In some instances, where one is not towing a high %, say less than 10% of the time, it might in reality be, just as well to use a smaller motor, know you will get the same mpg as the larger motor, BUT, when commuting, a V6 like the GM 4.3, can get upwards of 22-24 vs the 5.3 or 6.2 V8's will be lucky to get 17-18mpg. As you probably start approaching the 20-40% range, then a larger motor starts to make sense from the actual power perspective and speed up hills to a degree.
I would not have an issue pulling a 4K trailer with a current 4.3V6 and a 6 sp. That has more HP than my 5.7 Vortec V8 at 255 and 335 lb ft of torque. I have a lot tall geared rig despite 4.10 gears in the axel. I only have a 2.48 first gear, the 4.3 will have a 4.1 first gear and a 3.42 axel, or should have a 3.42 axel.
I've actually been toying with trading my 2000 C2500 on a new 1500 with a 7200 gvwr pkg if I could find one in a reg cab as I have, might lose 1000 lbs max of total payload, registered gvwr in Wa st will be 8K gvw as is my C2500, so no real loss there. Both will weigh in at about 4800 lbs empty. Towing upwards of 8K lbs of low frontal area rigs, ie bobcat, small trackhoe etc on an equipment trailer........WHat is not to like about the new rig frankly.
If the trailer is reasonably aerodynamic, should pull fine getting low double digits, ie 10-12 mpg towing, and low to mid 20s on the freeway, around 18 in town. That is what my older 4.3's got with less than 200hp doing what I just described, along with the 4 sp auto to boot, which is not as good as the newer 6 sp!
In regards to HD trucks -- buy the one you like. Trying to convince others that "your brand" is better is pointless. IMO, they are all very good right now.
You should put a pickup after that HD truck part, Otherwise, you might get some smart asset like me, saying a pickup is a light duty truck! no matter the badging or gvwr, as an HD truck is over 55K lbs gvwr! :D is under 13500, 13501-55K is a medium duty twuck!
I do agree with the buy what you want, ALL are better than they used to be. etc etc.
I would guess that the trucks no longer have a frontal area deduction because power is no longer a limiting factor in towing performance. In 92 a 454 or 460 probably made 230 horse a diesel made probably 180 or so. Now a base v6 makes 300 horse and a respectable towing engine is 350 to 400+. The limiting factor now has more to do with payload, stopping power, and stability than horsepower.
BUT< the new specs include a max frontal area of 60 or 80 sq ft to get the tow ratings. SO, with this in mind, if you are over this amount, one needs a deduct in the ratings no matter how little you think it may be. 3 sq ft of frontal area wind resistance is equal to the same HP as if adding an additional 1000 lbs of wt to a rig. No matter how much HP you have today vs yesterdays trucks, this same deduct is needed off of the total max trailer one can pull to keep the same performance.
I noticed this one time when I pulled a small trackhoe from Seattle to Ellensburg and back. I got 1-2 mpg more with the trackhoe at about 70Sq ft of frontal area and 15K lbs vs my TT at 15K and 90sq ft. I was able to pull the hills one gear taller and 5-7 mph faster. Yeah it was a 185/385TD, but none the less, I was faster. I noticed some of the same difference with my dmax between trailers also. If Fleets of Class 8 trucks are doing things with aerodynamics to get better mpg etc to there fleets, it effects us also. ALtho their savings are in the hundreds if not millions of dollars a year if they can get a .1-.3 mpg saving.
For a travel trailer, reduce the manufacturer's rating by at least 1/3.
I've recently discovered how much wind drag isn't figured into those numbers. I'd guess a TT about 8,000 would be a comfortable tow.
Ford figures their tow capacities with a 60 SQ foot front wall..
Is that the entire front surface, or just what is protruding up around the cab?
This would be the entire face showing to the wind in front of you, truck, trailer etc. If the trailer falls with in the frontal area of the TV, then generally speaking, the trailer does not add a lot of resistance per say. If the trailer face is wider, or taller than the truck, that is the area to be used for frontal area.
An older setups I used to have, one was pulling an equipment trailer total 15K gcw, with 70 sq ft of frontal area, needed about 105hp to motor down the freeway at 60 mph. Change the frontal area to my TT ie 90 sq ft, I needed around 135hp to go 60 mph. Same 135hp as a 25K rig with 70sq ft of frontal.
In 92 when I bought my TT, in the rv dealers showroom was a tow rating poster for Ford trucks. You got the max tow rating of 10K at the time IF you kept the FA to under 80 sqft, If 81-100, it was deducted 2500 lbs to 7500, 101-120 was down to 5K lbs total trailer wt. For the Aerostar van and Ranger pickup, max was 5000 lbs to 60 sq ft, 61-70 reduced 1000lbs, and 71-80 reduced 2000 lbs, over 80 or 120 for these rigs was not recomended you tow a trailer with your Ford truck.
The new specs do not include this kind of deduction, nor do you get a deduction if you need to start on a grade steeper than 12%. My sister has an 18% grade in front of her house, my drive way in an older home was just over 20, a client had one that was 33%! One can not pull those hills at max gcwr without literally stalling your rig out, blowing up a trans etc..........
The tow ratings need to include deductions for this type of issue.
A fellow that I have not seen post in awhile, delivers RV trailers. WORST mpg is a sts TT with aluminum siding, then a fiberglass version, then a front bedroom slide 5W, then an aluminum sided non front bedroom slide 5W, smooth fiberglass non bedroom slide 5W, best was an airstream, or at least on par with the fiberglss sided mid sized 5W.
Actually, the more you know about how to spec the correct truck for the job at hand, the more you realize that the J2807 specs are pretty meaningless. useless etc too!
One, 35 mph min on a 4% grade. Yeah at 100F with AC on, but that is still 5 mph below my states min speed on an interstate, which can be as steep as 6% for long stretches, short bursts to 8%. 40 mph on a 6% grade would be more meaningfull, at least then I am still at legal speed.
Min start is 12% grade. My sister lives on an 18% grade road. My old drive way was 20%, and a road I had to go up was 24.5% in the north end of Seattle. I also had a client with a 33% grade driveway off of lake Washington. That 12% minimum does not get you up the steepest of side streets if you have to around the greater Seattle area at sea level to 1000' elevation! 20 min, with a known deduction at 30 and 40% would be better so those of us that are more in the local road mix doing contruction would be better off than a hwy only user as the current spec is set for.
The frontal area is 60 sq ft for rigs under 8K IIRC, and 80 Sq ft for rigs over 8K. How many of you have rigs over 80sqft? probably most of you, so what is the deduction for those of you with front bedroom slide 5w's with 110-120 sq ft of frontal area? At one time, Ford had for full sized pickups, the ratings were up to 10K and 80 sq ft, 81-100 was deducted to 7500 lbs, 101-120 was 5000 lbs of trailer, no trailer over 120sq ft was recommended to be pulled by a full size F series pickup! Where is the equal deductions?
So yes, in a nutshell, the spec from a we are all equal is good! but from an end user that pushes the limits, total useless and meaning less numbers!
So how much do I have to derate the ratings if I want to go up a 30% grade vs a 12% grade. Much less the 20% grade of my driveway? 35mph is pretty dang slow up a 4% grade these days, granted in 100F heat with AC on, but still, 5mph lower than my states min on an interstate!
Well anyway, obviously my current feelings on the new rating system, better than the old, but still, useless for contractors or other folks that spend a lot of time on local roads where there is not a max % grade, as interstates have. Been stalled out below gvwr, also went up a grade at the same wt as the stalled out rig, with one rated half its wt, but went up at 150% of its rated gcwr!
When they start giving us multiple ratings per say like mdt and hdt trucks, ie how it will perform doing typical hwy work, 60 mph speed held on a 3% grade, and min 15% gradability, off road/contruction is 1% freeway grade at 55mph and a 30 to 70% grade it can pull......now I have numbers I can use, but current specs, still pretty useless knowing if I can get up a clients 100 yd long 33% grade driveway on Lake Washington. Or the 15-18% grades in downtown seattle, or the 23% grade for one block on Queen Anne Ave on the North side of Queen Anne Hill in Seattle! Probably stall the wanna be twucks out!
So if I understand this right, if jwco5.3 could clone his truck and trailer so everything is identical except the rear ratio on #1 is 3.55 and on #2 clone rig is 4.56, #1 has no trouble keeping up in the hills, because it has the same power?
I guess it could be so if the trailer is so light it never really makes either truck lug down at full power on a grade...
OK - so then a 450hp pickup truck can hook on the same load as a 450hp class 8 Freightliner and drive away with it then, right? Same power. Gearing doesn't matter.
The issue is as pointed out, At a given speed, the engine is turning more rpm, hence the motor is producing more HP at the higher rpm, so in a sense, it is producing more HP. The thing with gearing, be it in the trans, axels, or tire diam, is one has to have the correct HP at the speed you want to go for the total weight, and frontal area wind resistance one has. If you need a total of 300 hp to go 60 mph up a 4% grade, you motor only produces 250hp, you will NEVER go 60 mph up the hill, as you are 50 hp to little.
On the other hand, if the motor produces 350 hp at say 6000 rpm, and 300 at 5000 rpm, you could, WITH the correct gearing, theoretically go 60 mph up the 4% grade, IF, you can get the motor to turn 5000+ rpm in a gear, tire diam combo, that will net you 60 mph! If you have a gear that is too slow ie say a 4.88 vs 4.56, OR fast ie taller than 4.56 for matter, you will not hit 60, you will be slow, if you gear it correctly, then you can go 60 mph.
Clear as mud eh!
Michelin's and there owned Uniroyal, BFG and Kelly springfield tires seem to have a love or hate relationship with people on here. I would take firestone or Firebombs as they were called a decade or so ago with some issues on Explorers. ANyway, michiblows are not my favorite tire, as I have yet to get one to go over 35K miles with out a tread seperation or a blow up. Coopers have been over all the best for how I drive. With Toyo's M55 the absolute best tire I have gotten from an overal mileage at just under 80K miles. Otherwise, 40-50K is normal, Coopers I usually get about 50-55K or there abouts.
I will also say, I am about as hard or harder on tires as anyone per my tire dealer!