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Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

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NewsW

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Posted: 04/13/12 08:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Alright, while you are trading here...

I will be gone for most of this coming week... busy talking shop about fuel.

NinerBikes

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Posted: 04/19/12 06:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Alright, while you are trading here...

I will be gone for most of this coming week... busy talking shop about fuel.


OMG! The sky is falling.... took my Passat in today for it's new car check up, and something terrible was up on the rack... a 2010 Vw Touareg TDI V6 with a destroyed Bosch V type CP4.2 HPFP.

Sure, sure, pics, or it didn't happen.

Fuel lines, new. old ones contaminated.



$7000 in junked out contaminated parts here, 6 injectors, fuel lines, one fuel pump.


Bosch CP4.2 HPFP is an Eager Beaver when it comes to eating itself up inside.



Grand scheme of things.



Bosch CP4.2 Shaving Creme.







Jarlaxle

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Posted: 04/19/12 09:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How big a bill is that? I'd guess north of $10K, minimum.


John and Elizabeth (Liz), with 3 nutty cats
My beloved St. Bernard, Marm, lost him 1/2/12
Current rig:
1992 International Genesis school bus conversion

NinerBikes

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Posted: 04/19/12 09:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jarlaxle wrote:

How big a bill is that? I'd guess north of $10K, minimum.


Covered under warranty, no charge, this time, to the owner... Outside of warranty? Oiy vay... if you have to ask, you can't afford it... probably 15 to 16k... Obscene for a $ 40-45k SUV.

Tell you how you can find out... call your local VW dealership and tell them your glow plug light and check engine light are on and your motor died getting on the freeway, and you have 80k miles on your 2010 Touareg. Ask how much to fix, you think it's a HPFP failure.

NewsW

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Posted: 04/22/12 08:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Niner:

Can you do some sleuthing on the belt drive?

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Timing_belts.html

Use the table in the above link, do some measurements and you should be able to get a rough idea of how much energy / hp is being expended to drive the pump as per the chart: "Initial selection of Timing Belt ".

The pump using a timing belt is a good indication that it takes quite a bit of ommph to move fuel.

That will feed into a guess as to how much energy / heat is being dissipated into the fuel / engine area just from pumping the fuel.

4x4ord

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Posted: 04/22/12 10:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Am I missing something NewsW? It's not going to take much oomph to move 2.5 gals of fuel per hour even if it is at 29000 psi. Less than 1 HP anyway.


2011 F350 SRW short box 4x4 CC 6.7 PS King Ranch
B&W TurnoverBall and Companion
2003 Citation Supreme 34 RLTS


NinerBikes

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Posted: 04/23/12 12:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NewsW wrote:

Niner:

Can you do some sleuthing on the belt drive?

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Timing_belts.html

Use the table in the above link, do some measurements and you should be able to get a rough idea of how much energy / hp is being expended to drive the pump as per the chart: "Initial selection of Timing Belt ".

The pump using a timing belt is a good indication that it takes quite a bit of ommph to move fuel.

That will feed into a guess as to how much energy / heat is being dissipated into the fuel / engine area just from pumping the fuel.


14mm pitch, 30mm wide, and I know the pulley has a 3:2 drive ratio, overhead cam driven at 1/2 crank speed, HPFP at 2/3 crank speed. Redline at 5500 rpm. On my 2.0L the pulley speed is 1:1 5500rpm, same measurements on the belt. 30mm wide 14mm pitch. belt good for 130k miles. if you average 35 mph about 3700 hours life, might be higher than that to account for idle time in city traffic.

NinerBikes

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Posted: 04/23/12 12:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

Am I missing something NewsW? It's not going to take much oomph to move 2.5 gals of fuel per hour even if it is at 29000 psi. Less than 1 HP anyway.


A motor capable of making 240 HP is going to suck down more that 2.5 gallons per hour, just in pressurizing fuel and sending it back/bleeding it off to the fuel tank hot. Same for one capable of 400 HP like the Ford 6.7.

NewsW

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Posted: 04/23/12 04:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NinerBikes wrote:

NewsW wrote:

Niner:

Can you do some sleuthing on the belt drive?

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Timing_belts.html

Use the table in the above link, do some measurements and you should be able to get a rough idea of how much energy / hp is being expended to drive the pump as per the chart: "Initial selection of Timing Belt ".

The pump using a timing belt is a good indication that it takes quite a bit of ommph to move fuel.

That will feed into a guess as to how much energy / heat is being dissipated into the fuel / engine area just from pumping the fuel.


14mm pitch, 30mm wide, and I know the pulley has a 3:2 drive ratio, overhead cam driven at 1/2 crank speed, HPFP at 2/3 crank speed. Redline at 5500 rpm. On my 2.0L the pulley speed is 1:1 5500rpm, same measurements on the belt. 30mm wide 14mm pitch. belt good for 130k miles. if you average 35 mph about 3700 hours life, might be higher than that to account for idle time in city traffic.



In both cases, you got all that energy dissipated into a single piston.

What is not released as mechanical energy (moving fuel) got to go as heat.

Double the load for dual piston 4.2 vs. 4.1

Use a safety factor of 100% (2X) on the chart to start....

That is a lot of energy.


Logical next step --- if one has instrumentation.

Measure fuel intake temp and how it changes as the tank gets empty on a real hot day, high rpm, high engine output.

Measure fuel exhaust temp.

HPFP temp in several different places.

BenK

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Posted: 04/23/12 10:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

NinerBikes wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Am I missing something NewsW? It's not going to take much oomph to move 2.5 gals of fuel per hour even if it is at 29000 psi. Less than 1 HP anyway.


A motor capable of making 240 HP is going to suck down more that 2.5 gallons per hour, just in pressurizing fuel and sending it back/bleeding it off to the fuel tank hot. Same for one capable of 400 HP like the Ford 6.7.


You have to understand the association with both GPH and PSI/BAR

Maybe you would understand a ICE with 7.5:1 compression ratio vs one
with 20:1 compression ratio, both with the same displacement

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