Quote: I took dweisel's state failure list and did some analysis based on sales data provided by VW to NHTSA. I wanted to see what the data looked like if I computed the failures ratio based on sales ratio data by state. Of course we know that state sales data will not correspond to where the owners may actually reside and the state sales ratios may be different now as the sales data is almost 1 1/2 years old. But for states with large sales, a variance in the data will not affect the results very much. The table below shows the actual data. The ratio column indicates the (% of failures) / (% of sales) for that state. I have also colored coded the ratio data: pink > 1.2 ratio, green = yellow >= 0.8
When looking at the data, one should also be aware that one failure in a state with a small % of the total sales of about 139k, can affect the ratio significantly. So, I'd ignore the ratio in any state with less than around 4000 sales. But for the states above 5000 sales, I'd say one can make inferences from the data. So why do some states above 5000 in sales have such a wide range in the ratio. Could it be related to the lubricity of the fuel? When looking at the data above 5000 sales, there seems to be a significantly less likelihood of HPFP failure in states that have a bio mandate or where bio is widely available (PA, IL, WA). The ratio for the pink / yellow states is in the 1.1 - 1.8 range while the green states are in the 0.2 - 0.4 range. Is this evidence that increasing lubricity to say a 300 micron wear scar level with the additon of at least B2 results in a lower HPFP failure rate by a factor of maybe 3-5 times? You can look at the data and draw your own conclusion.
Not terribly surprising.
Need to do two sorts here.
One is to sort the temperature band of the high failure rate states vs. the low failure rates.
Now, the problem is, the lower temperature states are also the ones with more biodiesel mandates.
Get a stats guy here, but it looks like there are two phenomena... and some quick and dirty number crunching will yield an estimate of what factor has the more explanatory power:
- is it the incremental increase in lubricity from biodiesel?
OR
- temperature?
I am a tad uneasy about biodiesel increasing lubricity as I know one way blenders work is to lower the additives to improve lubricity if biodiesel is blended --- as long as the spec is met, what they put in to get it is beside the point.
Thus, one cannot conclusively say that biodiesel blends have higher lubricity in the field.
What about sorting it by PADD?
Quote: PADD: Petroleum Administration for Defense Districts
PAD District 1 (East Coast) is composed of the following three subdistricts:
Subdistrict 1A (New England): Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont.
Subdistrict 1B (Central Atlantic): Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania.
Subdistrict 1C (Lower Atlantic): Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia.
PAD District 2 (Midwest): Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Wisconsin.
PAD District 3 (Gulf Coast): Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico, Texas.
PAD District 4 (Rocky Mountain): Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming.
PAD District 5 (West Coast): Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Nevada, Oregon, Washington.
Does anyone have any current info on Ford. I would like to know if anyone has had a failure that was covered under warranty recently.
I would also like to know if a newer improved version is available. If Ford is still denying warranty on these it would be worth it to me to just replace it at my expense to avoid a failure and spend 8-18 thousand for the repair. Also I called NHTSA and spoke to some of the people on the Ford investigation. They were unaware that ford was denying warranty on the HPFP and said if Ford did that it would alter the failure rate as Ford would not report a none covered failure.
I also spoke to one of the executives at Bosch. He stated they make great fuel pumps and very bad water pumps. My response was the US fuel does not meet their own requirement for longevity of the pump. I had also asked if they were working on or had an improved pump and he would not say. All companies are constantly improving their products, but he would not admit this. I just wanted an improved pump that I could buy for piece of mind. I don't wan't to be worried about having a failure towing a trailer in the mountains. I am willing to foot the bill for a good pump but I can't even get that kind of information.
Don't get me wrong I believe it is a crime for Ford to be denying these pumps and not paying to repair the truck. But it is a safety issue for me and my family.
Bionic Man wrote: A Bosch executive told you that they make very bad water pumps?
Yes, he was implying that the Ford owners were using bad fuel that had water in it. Thus the pump failures.
Over at the TDI forum, they identified (IIRC) 3 different versions of the CP4 pump, with the latest one being a major redesign that resulted in the elimination of the Diamond Like Carbon (DLC) coating on the roller.
The latest one is made in Czechoslovakia.
Somehow, the water pump story don't seem to hold water.
Arizona1 wrote: Does anyone have any current info on Ford. I would like to know if anyone has had a failure that was covered under warranty recently.
I would also like to know if a newer improved version is available. If Ford is still denying warranty on these it would be worth it to me to just replace it at my expense to avoid a failure and spend 8-18 thousand for the repair. Also I called NHTSA and spoke to some of the people on the Ford investigation. They were unaware that ford was denying warranty on the HPFP and said if Ford did that it would alter the failure rate as Ford would not report a none covered failure.
I also spoke to one of the executives at Bosch. He stated they make great fuel pumps and very bad water pumps. My response was the US fuel does not meet their own requirement for longevity of the pump. I had also asked if they were working on or had an improved pump and he would not say. All companies are constantly improving their products, but he would not admit this. I just wanted an improved pump that I could buy for piece of mind. I don't wan't to be worried about having a failure towing a trailer in the mountains. I am willing to foot the bill for a good pump but I can't even get that kind of information.
Don't get me wrong I believe it is a crime for Ford to be denying these pumps and not paying to repair the truck. But it is a safety issue for me and my family.
I am going to advise you to do nothing of the sort like paying for a new pump yourself.
Do:
- not use biodiesel
- buy fuel from major brand high volume dealers
- keep all fuel receipts
- not use anything but Ford / Motorcraft additives and only use it in quantities specified. Keep records.
- do all scheduled maintenance according to schedule, either severe duty (e.g. for biodiesel), or regular duty. That means changing the oil, filters, etc. testing checking coolant, etc. and using Ford filters and Ford spec fluids. Ideally, have it done at the dealer and keep all receipts.
AFAIK, there are warranty cases that are covered, and not every case is denied.
Proactive replacement on a low single digit failure rate percentage per year is not warranted.
Oh.. there have been bad batches --- where the failure rate is a lot higher.
Volkswagen has steered away from 2000 bar pressures in their TDI's for the Passat model in 2012, instead going for either 1600 or 1800 bar pressures max, with solenoid injectors by bosch instead of piezo injector systems, and are relying moreso on Blue tek or adblue diesel exhaust fluid scrubbing systems and a diesel particulate filter to clean up the slightly dirtier exhaust output of the lower pressured pump and injectors.
It's still early in the hot season, but to date, the only HPFP's that have failed in 2012 Passat TDI's have been gasoline misfuels mishaps by the missus new to diesel fill ups. Vw has now issued bright yellow stickers for around the fuel filling area in the past 3 days via mail to address the ignorant mis fueling owners, and to prevent themselves from being on the hook for fixing a $10,000 gas in HPFP scenario on their dime.
NinerBikes wrote: Volkswagen has steered away from 2000 bar pressures in their TDI's for the Passat model in 2012, instead going for either 1600 or 1800 bar pressures max, with solenoid injectors by bosch instead of piezo injector systems, and are relying moreso on Blue tek or adblue diesel exhaust fluid scrubbing systems and a diesel particulate filter to clean up the slightly dirtier exhaust output of the lower pressured pump and injectors.
It's still early in the hot season, but to date, the only HPFP's that have failed in 2012 Passat TDI's have been gasoline misfuels mishaps by the missus new to diesel fill ups. Vw has now issued bright yellow stickers for around the fuel filling area in the past 3 days via mail to address the ignorant mis fueling owners, and to prevent themselves from being on the hook for fixing a $10,000 gas in HPFP scenario on their dime.
Considering that the Bosch CP3/4 value equation to the OEM customer is their higher priced pump meant lower cost in tailpipe treatment (because when working as claimed, it reduced particulates with higher pressure), it is a pretty big climb down to have VW, a German firm, of all companies, go to lower pressure and abandon their matching piezoelectric injectors.
Loss of face....
Loss of Teutonic arrogance...
Loss of German engineering prowess reputation...
OWCH.
How many former Bosch engineers are now on the Eastern Front?
NinerBikes wrote: Volkswagen has steered away from 2000 bar pressures in their TDI's for the Passat model in 2012, instead going for either 1600 or 1800 bar pressures max, with solenoid injectors by bosch instead of piezo injector systems, and are relying moreso on Blue tek or adblue diesel exhaust fluid scrubbing systems and a diesel particulate filter to clean up the slightly dirtier exhaust output of the lower pressured pump and injectors.
It's still early in the hot season, but to date, the only HPFP's that have failed in 2012 Passat TDI's have been gasoline misfuels mishaps by the missus new to diesel fill ups. Vw has now issued bright yellow stickers for around the fuel filling area in the past 3 days via mail to address the ignorant mis fueling owners, and to prevent themselves from being on the hook for fixing a $10,000 gas in HPFP scenario on their dime.
Considering that the Bosch CP3/4 value equation to the OEM customer is their higher priced pump meant lower cost in tailpipe treatment (because when working as claimed, it reduced particulates with higher pressure), it is a pretty big climb down to have VW, a German firm, of all companies, go to lower pressure and abandon their matching piezoelectric injectors.
Loss of face....
Loss of Teutonic arrogance...
Loss of German engineering prowess reputation...
OWCH.
How many former Bosch engineers are now on the Eastern Front?
To your question... not many, if they were relying on Ford Super Duty 6.7 diesel pick up trucks with Bosch CP4.2 HPFP's to get them there.
What is not known is if it was VW that made the decision to go with less expensive, lower technology, lower pressure solenoid injectors, or if VW got sick of eating the warranty repairs, or if they felt they were sold a bill of goods by Bosch on a system that didn't deliver as contracted.
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