Carb...venturi pulls fuel into the air stream and are droplets. Fuel in the
TBI...Throttle body injection similar body in the same place as a carb,
but injection nozzles up there. Fuel in the manifold
Port Injection...no more throttle body. Injectors are located more down stream
in the manifold, near the intake valves. Fuel in the manifold
Direct injection...injector is like a spark plug and injects directly into the
CC. NO Fuel in the manifold
Curious analogy...but then do you think our light duty trucks should require
Class 8 level of drivers license (CDL requirement), 22.5" wheels, Drivers Log Book,
that they get fined if over weight, etc?
That would be refreshing to the over all safety out there, as personally think
way too many pickups/SUVs towing heavy are lacking...
sales hype. If a rigid frame was better Class 8 road tractors would use them.
Another thread on "18or 20 wheels" is what I'm talking about the fashion statement
crowd driving this tread topic..."Ford, GM and Chrysler cash in on posh pickups"
18" vs 20" Wheels
A few have 'tried' to discuss technical aspects..with little effect. Weight rating
of the wheels does get a bit more notice...they do get the higher
cost of these larger dia tires
The affect of greater rotating mass and the resultant effects are lost to most
Am waiting for someone to mention 'chromed alloy' and then wonder if they know
the maintenance they require. More so for the tire tech who might not care or
know HOW2 on an chromed alloy wheel...
This got me curious and searched for GM bolt pattern/circle/etc Finally found
a good one and saved for future reference (searches begets too many) and this
one kinda sorta trust is accurate, since they sell tires and wheels
GM bolt patterns:
/discountedwheelwarehouse.com/ Chevrolet - Vehicle Bolt Pattern Reference
F60 is the GM snow plow option code
Ordered that for the 1 ton torsion bars, though my Front GAWR remains the same
as a non-F60. Front calipers & disc are the same dia as a 2500, but thicker. Eyeball
can't see and have to mic it to be fore sure
AAM supplies the 10.5" rear diff and rates it 10,000 GAWR, but GM rates it 6,000 GAWR
on mine and the 1 ton dually of the same year. Difference is that the shoes are
wider on the 1 ton, but my 2500 Sub's are also same width. Why parts counter
always ask what width. The cylinder is also larger bore, as is the MC.
assume the proportioning valve is also different between the 2500 & 3500, but
that is just a guess
We outsiders will never truly know what the weak link(s) are...
For me, it boils down to not just the rating, but how well it manhandles that load
in tough situations
For all things designed, it NOT for the good days, but for the day Mr Murphy crosses
your path. No matter how long or short that path is
The 8.6K GVWR sits higher than the 7.xK GVWR Suburban because the frame is about
2 inches taller and the suspension is also of higher ratings
Wish there was a +9K GVWR Suburban. I'd seriously consider trading/selling my Sub
for that...must have a decent gasser too. Truly wish for a big block...but am in
Like APT says, an iron block 6.2L would be the bare min for me.
Why I'll keep mine till the wheels fall off
As for a possible 8.6K GVWR Suburban...a wonderful indication that there is hope
for the marketing folks at GM's SUV division
But...it will most likely be too 'car' like for me and again, am in the vast minority there
Another way to tell, albeit difficult, is to check out the diff pumpkin, but with
the spare down there it is tough to see more than just the lower portion
Betcha GM will keep that POS receiver. Have figured out HOW2 install a traditional
receiver, but none of the folks I know who has one is willing...as they don't
Add to Niner's comments on 'recommended'...
In the world of lawyers...'recommended'...is a 'defined term'
Meaning that if you don't follow the OEM's 'recommendations'...you most likely
will NOT be covered under warranty
Think about that...you don't follow their 'recommendations'...so why should they
provide warranty to you?
The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act usually is brought up on this type of topic
It only applies if you used components that did NOT modify the specification
of the OEM and that the material/part/etc provider will stand up to their
certification or claim that it is up to OEM specification
Like tuners will void warranty, as it changes the OEM's specification (torque
and HP are the main ones).
Why would anyone use less than spec motor oil anyway? The pennies saved vs the
THOUSANDs of bucks isn't worth it to me
On safety margin and over all longevity...consider where you wish to be full timing...
Carefree RV'ing or right at the edge of your ratings/limits
At or over the ratings won't have the wheels instantly fall off...unless you are
But...they will sooner...
How much more will the bigger TV cost? Only you can decide if that is worth
the price. If me, I'd get the bigger each and every time. I want as much margin
in these kinds of things
Thanks and since you have a GM TV and P3, it will lead the trailer brakes better
and more than any MC PSI sensed because of the GM brake pedal switch
Am wondering if the other OEMs still have a plunger type brake pedal switch
Good info and saved for reference and again, THANKS !
Agree with most of the advice given and add
The below diagram will help you understand, decipher the HOW2 figure it
out to do the simple math towards finding your actual rating numbers
First, here is the diagram of how the ratings system looks like in a
graphical form. Hope you can see that if you go over any *ONE* rating,
that the rest of the system can be within, but that one overage becomes
the weak link....limiting factor
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/bentoy/Towing/howmuchcanItowdiagramB4.jpg width=640howmuchcanitow howmuchshoulditow
You also need to load and weigh your TV as suggested. That is the basis
for all in this scheme
On that, you need to decide for yourself whether you believe in the
ratings system or not
If not, then all of this is academic and do whatever you wish, but know
that you then have taken all the OEMs off the warranty and liability
hook. You will now own both warranty and liability
If yes, then read up, ask questions to learn HOW2
This is an old chart that shows how GM's tow ratings looked like back
in 2001 or whenever they printed these documents
NOTE that there are BILLIONS of bucks behind it, but so many...most
people take any individual number as an absolute. Meaning that there
are other factors...and most of that is embedded in the fine print
Not just this OEM, but *ALL* OEM's do this, as that is the only way
they can compete for your dollars.
Do wish the OEMs would have continued to publish charts like the above
As today's info is much tougher to find...many times wonder if it is
so well organized today... Personal opinion...the OEMs no longer have
marketing folks who understand towing heavy anymore. Plus their demographics
surveys no longer show 'enough' buyers towing heavy...so an almost lost
art in building TVs for heavy towing
Also note that was back then and now things have changed. Mainly in
the sciences embedded (design, engineering, process, material, etc)
have gotten better. Mine is a GMT400 series truck. The above GCWR
chart is for a GMT800 series truck, yours is a GMT800 series truck
Too many will only see the three variables listed on that chartTransmission typeEngine type & sizeDifferential ratio
But there are many more attributes (factors) embedded that are NOT
clearly shown that folks are ignorant of, ignore or don't care to
consider. Somewhere else in the OEMs documentation will be reference
to the basis for all ratings...'curb' and one driver...that one driver
is the proverbial 150lb person from insurance actuary tables from
decades ago... A PS on that 150lb person...boating industry (Coast
Guard driven) has changed that to define that person as a 180lb person now
The door label referenced by others is the ratings for 'your' vehicle
Here is mine, a 1996 Suburban.
So, after you have weighed your fully loaded and ready to go camping TV
Plug that weight into the diagram
Then find the actual weights of the trailer you are considering. If no
actual, then use it's max rated weight (GVWR) and use that with the
percentage tongue/PIN weight of the 'dry' trailer. That will give you
the trailer's GVWR tongue/PIN weight
The GCWR will then be the bottom line comparison for your risk management
decision (AKA gamble) on how much design margin you wish to have (AKA safety factor)
Curious why you wanted to remove the integrated?
Don't like anything 'highly integrated' in my vehicles. Especially any
that 'integrate' with ABS, Traction Control, etc.
Your experience is indicative of why I don't like highly integrated.
Can you imagine if something went south...it would take down the whole
vehicle...or one or more of the other computers
Did Teknosha solve this for you and how did they do it? Did they
mention 'real time' and 'master slave' in their solution, or did they
just have a pre-wired plug to replace the integrated controller's
harness into the TV's harness?
Just to clarify my earlier response---- I have the integrated controller and there was no plug in solution. When I tried to unhook the integrated, it threw codes and messages on the driver information display. That was when I got Tekonsha involved. You may have a plug like a previous poster replied since you do not have the integrated.
Never one to part of any large herd...prefer fringe to smaller herds...
Not blindly loyal either, though do have preferences over other badges
All I really care about is that whatever I own, likely to own, or order...sells
in high enough volumes to have a good supply line, commodity pricing and lots
of places to purchase them
Whizzy Bang stuff stuff like GM's rear steering axle would be only 'okay' if
the kept building them for a looooong time with a good supply line out into the
future...but they killed it after about 10 or so years. So the parts supply line
will be short and junk yards becoming the best/only source
There are lots of reasons just outed for the designers choices
Many have commented on the smallish turbines...spooling up to reduce lag seems
to be the reason...with them topping out on the upper end...but this is a small
displacement...so that makes sense
The dew point issue with the inter-cooler affects in all RPM ranges, but at the
higher boost of higher rev's the temp differential will be greater...therefore
higher chances of dew point issues
Boy racers for decades have known about this dew point issue and many approaches
that have worked for decades. The tiny drain hole...has potential to whistle if
not done right...and as usual, an OEM with tons of money has designed a much
more elaborate drain. Also putting the cold side tube on the high side avoids
most of the H2O issues, as the dew point is in the cooling tube area and will
drain 'down' into the plenum on the bottom...why the cold plenum should be on
the high side. FPS/CFM does affect the H2O flow
Everything the OP has observed is typical of lag and the boy racer trick is to
throttle/brake up to stall before launching...but that is tough, tough, tough
on the drive train and torque management kicks in
Oxymoron wanting that high power AND high MPG. Gotta stay off high throttle
settings of you want high MPG and let the small displacement continue to be
small displacement. With forced induction...that small displacement becomes an
'apparent' bigger displacement in a small displacement CC
It is an end all, or seemingly, to those who don't have much experience
with forced induction...can't wait till they discover nitrious... :B
That is my whole point...it is within the laws of physics and a system that has
checks and balances
Just saying 20's are better because it allows larger disc is out of context...there
are other attributes that must be dealt with
Correct, the aluminum weighs more than the air & sidewall it replaces in a smaller
Flywheel (centrifugal) forces negate some to lots of the gain from larger dia
disc. Toss in the thicker sidewalls of a lower aspect ratio tire and the weight
is even higher (don't believe...cut two of high/low profile and see for
yourself...on that cut open a 22.5 and then see the humongo difference in sidewall
While on low aspect ratio tires...they typically are much wider at the tread and
the ballooning effect both from PSI and RPM is a huge issue...normally on the
ones I've cut open to look see to confirm...their tread area is also much thicker
than higher profile tires I've cut open...again more weight. Of course LT tires
not 'P' class tires...though think they do too, but to a lesser degree
Ride quality that these folks demand also decreases with the higher unsprung
weight of larger dia wheels
Some potential benefits too...cooling air flow to cool the disc is potentially
greater. The lower profile tire does have naturally stiffer sidewalls for quicker
response (lower slip angle and lower times for T&T).
Fish...Dirty is on my blocked list for a reason and your quote of his
comment verification to me why. Do not ever see his posts...unless
someone quotes them like you did. He and his kind is waste of my time
and ask that Dirty likewise block me so he won't have to put with me
Dirty is a novice techie from his positioning/comments and he is a
Proverbs26,4 kind of person to me
Yes, larger dia has a longer moment, but there is more to it than
that one aspect
Using Dirty's analogy...my puny disc cann't stop anything compared
to the new stuff...well I can initiate ABS at will in most conditions
I've braked to feather this Michelin LTS-MS LT265/75R16E
pictured...it got way worse before it started to crack to no longer hold PSI.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/bentoy/Tire%20Wheel/07220008SubTreMSfeatheredrdcd.jpg width=640 feather feathered
Can you guys?
Hint...it has to do with modulation and that braking force curve
Hint2...ABS won't allow you guys with OEM brakes to do so
Oh well, Dirty didn't impress me when I blocked him and continues to
to not do so...'Modern' is all he knows, or so he says in Fish's quote
Maybe he also thinks his 'modern' ratings requires more TV braking,
but isn't he also one of those who say no need for the TV to do
the trailer braking...because the trailer has brakes and no matter for
the TV, right?
Fish, you are correct that the larger dia wheels do allow for larger
dia disc's...you two know why one reason larger is better, generally?
Hint, told you so up above...
Yes in your time dated humble opinion... 18/20" rims required now a days due to the larger brakes found on "modern" vehicles... unlike your 96 burb with its itsy bitsy 16" wheels or your 80 chevy 1/2 ton with its even smaller 15" rims...with larger tow/hual caps with the "modern" vehicles, larger brakes are required to stop em.... your itsy bitsy teeny weeny brakes from yester-year wouldn't... couldn't stop today's "modern" vehicles! Hardly a "fashion statement"!
As for cost of replacement parts... all relative...betcha in 1980 that driver side mirror was a heck of an expense at that time as it is now. Love how some continue to try and get us to swallow the old ... "had to walk 10 miles up hill both ways to school every day... and in a blinding snowstorm at -55 degrees..." :B
Agreed... The larger diameter wheels accommodate large diameter Rotors.
Driven by the fashion statement crowd...
Am expecting the Lambo like swing up door kits to make it big this year. A kid
down the street has that setup on his Escalade and draws a crowd whenever he gets in/out...
20's are now OEM
Like on one thread someone was stating that a passenger side view mirror was
over a thousand bucks. Gads...it is a mirror !?!
All the more potential failure points, IMHO
Pure 'good' pavement rigs will never need a stiff frame, nor will their owners
ever understand why
Yet because the Tundra frame isn't as rigid, some (I think even you Ben, though not 100% sure) remark that it is pure junk.
First, I'm a foreign badge person. Detroit lost me in the late 60's and
early 70's..for cars
Was a die-hard Detroit iron teen (first Ford, then Dodge, then Chevy)
Wrenched buddies from middle school through college. Dad got mad at the
mess out on the driveway and that convinced him to allow me to build a
three car, cinder block garage out back with a 12 foot, 10 Ga steel topped
work bench for heavy stuff. An one ton over head hoist. 220 service for
the welders and a 100 amp service (now updated to 200 amp) when still
in high school
Toss up between beautiful Kathy Wilson and her mom's Morgan. Wrenched
it and her dad's buddies soon took their Jag's, Vette's, MG's, Triumph's, etc
for me to fix
That was junior year and the clincher was when I bought my first car,
a well used 64' MGB and that Detroit iron was stuck in the past with
their offerings...shoulder belted and could NOT reach anything.
Loved my Toyota FJ40, but engaged and she didn't like it, nor could
drive a clutch...should'a tossed her and kept the FJ40...she is now
the 'ex'...and miss the FJ40 to this day...
Datsun is my fav and would own a Nissan truck if they made a +8K GVWR
that met my likings. Why been saying the Big Three has left the door
wide open to have their lunches eaten, again, by foreign badges.
Meaning when foreign badges comes out with decent, full sized +8K GVWR
trucks and SUVs...Detroit will have their lunches eaten again...
The WWII Jeep had lots of frame flex. The FJ40 and K5 did NOT. Had to
weld the frame of the Jeep in about 10 spots because the flexing cracked
Innately understood why and filled in the missing data points in college
strength of materials, processes, etc classes
It really boils down to how you drive, how you have setup your rig,
where you drive and a host of other attributes
As for seeing utility trucks, police, fire, municipality, government, etc
with XYZ badge...note that they typically purchase the low bidder and/or
the OEM which gives them the best deal. Not always price either
Similar to seeing lots of semi's parked in a drive-in...must be really
good...not necessarily so...just maybe it is the easiest to park and/or
get into and out of
On that, note that I detest being part of any herd...especially if it
is driven by the fashion statement crowd...I'll take spec/performance
over looks...although looks is important 'enough' to me too
Important to some...
I've had my Suburban in situations (often) where one wheel is off the ground (dirt)
Airborne for the K5, FJ40, Dune Buddy and Jeep. Some times not on purpose either
Honed my welding on that old WWII Jeep's frame. 15 at that time and the old guys
at the auto parts/machine shop showed me HOW2 gusset the welds. Later in college
was taught the science behind all of that
Pure 'good' pavement rigs will never need a stiff frame, nor will their owners
ever understand why
Few go to the places I go to and few drive like I do...so why would I expect
everyone else to likewise...like some think what I like/want is not needed because
I am older now and don't do some of the stuff when young and single...