P3, so a life time warranty and why not use their contact page/info, as you
paid for that life time warranty
Sounds like you have a bad controller, as the older one works. I'd
ask them if either they can send a new one to swap it out, or authorize
a dealer to try a new one on the spot
Here is the link to file online
Tekonsha contact page
Contact By Mail
Cequent Performance Products
47912 Halyard Drive
Plymouth, MI 48170
Contact By Phone
Cequent Performance Products
Just picked it up, so new to you and ask if bought used or is it brand new, as
that makes a difference in forensics of why it is locking up
Just some things that might be the cause
Brake fluid and some oils when contaminated on friction materials can cause the
shoes to bite hard and lock up. Know that is weird, but that is in the book but
never experienced that
Of course rust, but not again in a couple weeks...unless you have it stored in
a high humidity location and/or salts got on the cast iron....of course assume
electric shoe/drum brakes and not some newer setups with disc on their trailer brakes
Adjustment. Since shoe/drum has a self wedging (they call it self energizing, etc)
If out of adjustment, the wedging action is exacerbated by the shoes having to
move a larger distance, there fore the angle of attack is high to cause it to bite
very hard and lock up
Controller and yes dial it back all the way with no boost, etc and test it
I also have a P3, have no problems and love it.
You have a Silverado, so the best brake pedal switch as mine (assume GM hasn't
change it since my 1996 Sub).
Properly setup, my Sub can stop both trailer and TV WITHOUT moving the brake pedal
far enough to develop braking on the TV (zero PSI in the master cylinder).
My setup has the trailer lead the TV in braking, so smooth and seamless
Tell us a bit more about the trailer. New, used and if used, when was the brake
With today's close ratio automatics, the diff can now be a MPG ratio
Close ratio to allow the ICE to spin within it's most optimal range and
also has double over drive
What really matters is the 'effective' ratio at the tire contact patch to pavement
So your posted tranny gear ratio's is out of context without the diff ratio
and the simple math is to factor both the 3.21 and 3.55 to see them side by side
My dream manual tranny is a NV4500 and here are it's ratios and might even
change my 4.1's to something in the 3's...along with an inline over drive
1st 6.34 1993 or 5.61 after 1993
reverse 6.34 (1993) 5.61 (1994 on)
Forgot, your mechanic may have to re-route the harness and notice I insulated
mine with old rubber garden hose. I never toss garden hoses and use them for
this kind of stuff and for staking trees/shrubs/etc
Yes, you need to buy the bracket that fits your plug.
Most auto supply stores have a small section and it should have the most common
plug. There also should be a bracket by itself for sale, as they get banged up
often and folks replace them often
Then print out the above pic's for your mechanic, along with the bracket or
leave it to them to buy the bracket and mark up a bit of profit for themselves
I did NOT thread the receiver flange because lazy and didn't want to go back
to the garage for my tape set. So clearance hole in the receiver flange and
double nutted a screw (think 10-32)
Your mechanic should understand all this
Same metrics while at SunLabs... (back to the original topic)
The summer intern kids (late teens to early twenties) from the likes of MIT,
Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford, Purdue, etc, etc all were whizzes on CAD and could
do almost anything you told them to do...but...when asked to 'think' and 'design'
something from scratch...got some pretty weird stuff...think Rube Goldberg
The older (mid 30's and up) physicists had the seasoned (hard knock schooling)
to know better
Oxymoron that...as the older physicists some times said 'can not be done' and
the kids often proved them so wrong because they didn't know they could...those
are the ones we chose those for next summer or hired them and passed on the others
Probably trying to minimize strain on an old bridge. There's a similar restriction for the same reason in Revere, MA...a railroad bridge on route 1A is limited to three tons. (Yet, 35,000lb MBTA buses use it...go figure!)
Betcha smack on target and add that it won't instantly break when a
bus or truck over 30,000 lbs rolls on that bridge...it just takes a
bit of longevity out if each time
Same thing with folks running over their ratings...won't have the wheels
instantly fall off, but they will sooner...
OEM's include the bracket for the plug, but most after market do not, as they
do not know where you want it, need it...nor what kind of plug you want to
Here is a link to how I added a plug bracket (they come with the plug and if
you already have the plug, you can purchase just the bracket) to my OEM receiver
That era, GMT400, GM full sized still had a traditional design receiver so it
should be very similar to yours
1996 Suburban tow harness
and this is the image of how it came out and during the install (drilling)
Vice Gripped to hold while drilling into the receiver
If you guys really want reliability, low contact resistance, many cycles (big MTBF), etc
Then why not look at military stuff.
I've used or spec'd to use on my military designs. This one has a
screw on barrel, but they also come in quarter turn and even safety wire
They do NOT have any vibration on the contacts, so they will last forever (almost)
hermetically sealed and extremely low insertion and break-apart forces
Contacts look like this (female half shown and the male half just a
round nosed pin)
Signal level up to hundreds of amperes. More contact surface than the regular
blade or round types
Wiping action the whole length of those spiral female side wires and
can get 'make before break' or 'break before make' or signal or power
in any combo in the same connector...though $$$$
Can even find them in surplus stores and on line too
Three type of people out there OP.
1. Folks who follow manufactures GVWR. Manufactures are pretty dumb folks though as they know nothing about the truck they engineered :B
2. Folks who run by the GAWR or axle rating. Heck a 9350 rated axle can always hold that much weight with 6k rated tires :E
3. Then there are those who just hitch up and go. I'm sure the Yugo will be just fine honey.
Life is choices.
Let me add 1A; Those of us who think the manufacturer actually did the engineering and therefore NONE of the many "maximum ratings" should ever be exceeded!
This type never has to rationalize away anything in their mind or to anyone else concerning whether a maximum allowable rating was established for safety reasons, or warranty reasons, or performance reasons, or liability reasons, or if the tires or the axle is the limiting factor, no wait, maybe it's the mythical "missing" leaf spring? Is it possible that the manufacturer who established the "Not to exceed" rating really meant it, or is it just a recommendation? Apologies to the OP for the hijack rant but your question has already been answered many times very accurately by previous posters.
Welcome to the forum !
First, decide whether you believe in the ratings (specifications, limits, etc)
If not, then do whatever you wish. It is a free country till you intrude into
others likewise freedoms. Then our society limits your freedoms in
many ways. Know that you have taken the OEM off the warranty hook
if still in warranty and off the liability hook. On that, note that
'recommended' is a defined legal term and if a driver should ignore
that 'recommendation', that too takes the OEM off the hook...
If yes, then read and ask question to learn how the system works. Yes, a system
and that all of the various components, sub assemblies, and systems work in
concert with *EACH OTHER*
There is fine print in all OEM ratings. The fine print establishes
and/or modifies the basis used to derive those ratings. This is VERY
important, as most folks take any single rating as an absolute, and
lost to them is that it is only a component in a ratings system
Or that there is fine print that modifies the conditions on which
that rating is based, or derived from
Then learn or already know what the definition of 'rating' is, then that
is part of your yes/no decision on ratings. Many seemly do NOT truly
understand the definition of rating.
Notice that the acronyms all have an 'R' in them. GVWR, GAWR, MTWR,
Payload rating is what any vehicle is rated to carry (weight to pavement)
Tow rating is what any vehicle is rated to tow...reference that fine
print comment above
Like that Toyota commercial that has a pickup 'towing' the Space Shuttle
that weights hundreds of thousand of pounds. That is towing on a good
day and am sure that Tundra is NOT rated to tow that amount.
There will be tons of the 'sure you can', etc, but the only person
responsible for the setup is the driver. Like your spouse driving
while you rest. Many come here only looking for that 'sure you can'
and they will get many...
Here is a diagram made up from another members diagram showing how
the whole ratings system works in concert. Remember the old axiom
of a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...in this case the
weakest or limiting 'rating'...
Really, no one can say which one is the best unless he has tested all the ones available. I don't think many people have tried a time based, inertial sensor, Brakesmart/Maxbrake/Jordan, and OEM integrated.
Even then...so subjective and as normally say, there is no one size fits all here
The loyalists who say because seamless, no jerking, banging and stops
as 'one'. MC PSI sensed say that. Jordan say that. I say that with a P3
Boils down to liking what you have, pure and simple.
To chastise others for not having what you love is a blind loyalty
On another brake controller thread of recent...the OP says he is ASE
certified brake mechanic and his first comment on the MC PSI based
of mine was to gravity bleed and exactly my point. As that is what I'd
do to any hydraulic brake line opened up to atmosphere...but...the
instructions of those MC Sensed controllers do NOT instruct to do so
and only instruct to bleed the new stub line to the sensor
Telling on the fastidiousness of that OEM's engineering both in braking
systems and that they left a cantilevered stub line with a weighted
end (that sensor) without fastening it to prevent fatigue failure
Key to that seamless, no jerk, no bang and stopping as one is to have
the trailer brake's lead the TV brake's. Of course both the TV and trailer
brake systems need to be in good order.
Most who complain about jerking and banging have either or both their
TV and trailer brakes in need of attention. All the way to needing
a new harness with larger gauge wires and better connectors for the trailer
Steve....that old thread has many aspects based on new info and info not known back then
One poster used to boohoo 3/4 ton Subs as there is little difference with a half
ton Sub, but notice he now has a 3/4 ton...
Or that it was unknown to many that the GMT800 4x4's had the front axle bump stop
touch the lower A-Arm in all conditions, therefore a secondary front axle spring
Also, back then, even drop was still the rule of thumb, albeit in the process of
changing and my guess because of the new front suspensions already out there
Finally, it was still contentious, as it is a bit so now, that the GMT800 receiver
was a pick of junk...or more PC...not a good design
So many who have gone and spent the approx $200 bucks on a traditional receiver
design replacement *ONLY* have reported that they now can transfer enough weight
No other changes than that new receiver
Not worth the time to go further than 3 pages, as it is a repeat of contentious
comments without knowing what we know today (or at least what I now know)
Oh, the why of the jerking when braking while towing a trailer
It has to do with the TV's braking leading the trailer's brakes
There is slop in any coupler and is supposed to be there in order to move the
ball away from the front dome portion of the coupler
Towing will have the ball move forward, into that dome and that dome has a lower
hemisphere to capture the ball when the ball unweights during a whop-do AND the
latch assembly moves in a metal pawl to form a rear lower hemisphere
When the latch is opened, that pawl is withdrawn and as the ball is moved BACK
out of the front dome, it no longer has any lower hemisphere to keep it
When the TV's braking leads the trailers, the ball moves back and against that latch
When the trailers brakes finally kick in, the ball is now slammed into the
front of the coupler dome to become that 'bang' and 'jerk'
Since my P3 is told to initiate the trailer brakes BEFORE the MC ever develops
PSI, the trailer brakes 'LEAD' my Suburban's brakes...so the ball never leaves
contact with the front portion of the coupler dome
A case can be made that if I pressed the brake pedal hard/fast enough,
the TV brakes 'may' lead the trailer brakes...yes, if the hysteresis
of the trailer braking system is longer than the TV's braking system
but to date, have not experienced that...even after too many 'have to
slam on the brake' sessions with the trailers I've towed
Folks who marvel at the MC PSI sensed miss that and that they also
have a bit sooner lead, but not as much as my GM brake switch sensed
or those with a plunger type brake switch (they are later in the game,
as they can NOT be adjusted as tight as the GM switch...or that I've
come across...any have the switch spec on the other OEM's?)
By the time my Suburban's MC develops PSI, the trailer has already been braking
to then sense the inertia sensor's input that 'hey, there is deceleration' and
goes into the preset braking metrics
This is a ditto with MC PSI sensed, but again not as much lead as
Albeit milli seconds (dependent on how fast/hard the pedal is
pushed...I can dwell and NOT go into pushing the MC piston rod, so
all trailer brakes and no TV brakes), but never the less, mine leads any MC PSI
sensed, unless they also employ a brake pedal switch that initiates
as soon as the GM brake switch
Steve...I'm semi-retired taking care of mom (Hospice) so for now, lots
of time to no time and glad to do this...therapeutic in a way for me
That old thread a bit long for my time available at this time...later
Ah, went to that link posted by Gdetrailer and see that Jordon made
their own switch...tough in the limited quantities of 'this' product
The wiping action is common to all contacts. Whether hundreds of amperes
to milli-amperes. Hard gold for low voltage (signal) is also common and
the great debate on that is how thick...I like 5 microns as a min
Also, a carbon pot and haven't seen nor heard of a linear pot in decades
Personally, if these kinds of things necessary to keep the Jordon
going...it high time to look for a replacement. Very old technology
and sure it is simple, but also fraught with potential issues that
might show up at the wrong time(s)
Bending the switch arms, sanding down contacts, scraping off oxidation, etc
is a been there done that decades ago and also know how quickly their
issues comes back. The biggie is not if, but when...
Using the GM OEM brake switch solves that for me, as in this class
of OEM and products (assume GM does not make it like they used to make
just about everything, but outsourced and that there is a PO with a
detailed specification and most likely based on that switch OEM's
base line or product line specification)
That should have a MTBF in the millions of cycles at load (specified)
Maybe tens of millions or more
I got tossed out of a Detroit design center about 20 years ago. Sales
folks asked my Sunlabs team to install and test a custom CPU module
to run a CAD program head to head.
Since their Program Manager, I didn't have much to do, so wandered and
found a young kid loading up a switch spec and noticed all he was doing
was changing the spec from 5 microns hard gold to 2 microns...asked and
he said his boss said to do that for all of the switch from all of
their suppliers...explained why 5 microns is the 'gold' standard and
he understood...meanwhile his boss came over and got pretty steamed
A bit later found another group changing wire gauges and to a non AWG
but their own...ditto...to save money, but willy-nilly without engineering
thought...different boss and the group manager got wind and had me
escorted out of the building...
Knew from then on that, that Detroit OEM would have more electrical
fires than the others...
Anyway, just about any controller can be reworked and made 'almost'
like new, but why bother with a huge safety component when very affordable
Again, there is no 'one size fits all' here. I do NOT like the MC PSI
sensed. Both from their lack of fastidiousness of design and instruction
Nor does that design, unless they also use the brake pedal switch as
their initial sense, gets the controller turned on sooner than my P3
Nor can they stop the whole setup without ever developing MC PSI like
my setup can.
Again, unless they have a brake pedal switch sense like mine...but then
why touch the MC hydraulic system?
Yet again, most who complain about jerking/banging/etc to me and I've
had the chance to hands on (even a few via email instructions) find
that their braking system (not the controller) is not setup right. Mainly
their trailer braking system not up to snuff and includes electrical
harness/connector and the biggie...the magnets
I'll comment on the GMT800 receiver, but am almost positive it is the
POS receiver needing replacement with a traditional deisgn
Don't remember which thread on a GMT800's not able to transfer weight
to the front axle, but generally it is the OEM receiver...all things
A very poor design and some also have very poor manufacturing and quality
At about $200 bucks for a new traditional design receiver, I'd try that
first and if I did respond earlier, that is my standard recommendation
Plus about 1 hours work to remove and install
A link to that old thread would refresh me
The issue with the GMT800 receiver is that it bends and flexes so
that the WD Hitch system runs out of spring travel. I use the term
'consume' trying to get folks to understand, but lots of rocks get
tossed at me for that, so I did not mention that... :W
Back on the Jordon...
One large factor in my decision to pass on the Jordon decades ago is
with my guess on what linear sensor they employed
Never found out, but didn't try that hard either.
From the very expensive Farand type of transducers to a linear gear
that, that wire moves that has a spur gear mounted on a potentiometer
is my guess
If a Pot, then is it precision wire or carbon. If carbon, then those
things don't last long both from wear and oxidation. A shot of contact
cleaner & lube normally solves an oxidation issue...temporally. If worn,
only a new pot will solve that
If a solid state transducer, then finding a supplier will be an issue
They may have made up their own and if me, I'd have a strip with graduated
lines that a LED shines on and a receiver reads the number of lines,
rate of change and direction of change. That would require the OEM
(Jordon) to supply a new one
The comment of 'whacking' the controller says that this most likely
if whacking does get it going for a bit
If in the harnesses and connectors, then standard DVM & a 12VDC lead/probe (loooooooong) divide and conquer methodology works well
As mentioned, LED's don't take much power and a ground loop in the
trailer will be high on my list, but a really tough one to find and
fix. Another is noise and just as hard to find and fix (well might
be a bit easier if noise and some sort of filtering at the Jordon
might work...but why should that be necessary)
Yes, my setups brake seamlessly and no jerking. Note I no longer own
but borrow trailers (from TT's to utility). Some do have less than
smooth, but they all smoothed out after manually adjusting their brakes
There is no magic to this and all to do with timing of the sequencing
of inputs to the controller. Most all controller 'should' look very
similar in logic diagram.
It is the type of input sensors they employ and how they have their
logic or truth tables setup to manage those inputs
Again, I'll not touch my braking hydraulics for this. You are competent
and so am I, but not ASE certified....but...look at the videos and
documentation on the MC fluid sensed. They do NOT instruct to bleed
down to the wheels of 'that' line. Just to the new sensor stub line
And that they have a cantilevered sensor line that some have gone to
using a tie wrapping...silly that the customers figured that one out
and the OEM did not and still does not recommend (as of the last time
I looked at their documentation)
My preference is for a P2 or P3, I have a P3
I'll never break open my braking system for anything, as the intrusion of a
potential failure point is something not worth it to me. Plus view the various
videos on installation and then if you are not braking system savvy, as a ASE
brake mechanic about bleeding that 'new' line and the old line where the 'T'
Since you have a Suburban and that nifty brake pedal switch, you can have the
controller turn on the trailer brakes B E F O R E any of the
other controllers...except for the Jordan
Here is a link to a HOW2 for a GMT400 Suburban (your 04 is a GMT800), but assume
GM did not change that nifty switch
1996 Suburban tow harness
That switch clicks over (turns on the controller) in less than 1/64" movement
of the brake pedal...way B E F O R E it ever moves the MC piston rod.
Therefore initiates the trailer brakes B E F O R E any MC hydraulic PSI
I looked at the Jordan when it first came out and decided my old Hayes was okay
Didn't like the wire and the potential for me to snag is while underneath working
That wire gets the controller initiated before the pedal moves the MC piston
rod and then proportional to the travel
The P2/P3 does that too with the GM brake pedal switch to get it turned on before
the MC develops PSI, but the difference is the inertia system inside the controller
then takes over sensing deceleration
That deceleration is based on the setup (presets) you dialed in
All the folks I've helped who asked had both their controller setup out of wack
and that their brakes on both the TV and trailer not tuned well.
The hardest to setup/adjust are the brake pedals that use a 'door bell' (plunger)
switch mounted on a bracket. Usually bend that bracket but the transition from
on to off has more hysteresis because of the snap switch itself. False initiation
is that issue
I can stop the whole setup without ever initiating the Suburban's
braking system. Just touch it to tell the controller to turn on the
trailer brakes and it will stop the whole setup. If I want to stop a
bit faster, then press further to initiate the Suburbans brakes
There is no one size fits all...even in socks... :) The P3 is best for 'me'...
It seems a never ending 'them' against 'us' discussion when it comes to outsourcing...
Get over it, it has been done and going to continue
Just take the clothes on anyone's back, and that includes shoes. Even some of
my 'good' clothes are no longer made in the Americas
Ditto that for most any appliance in anyone's home or office. The computer or
smartphone you post here with is most likely made off shore, the majority of it's
components made and/or assembled off shore
Betcha most will be from '3rd' world sources.
There is a for sure 'crash and burn' for most of those 3rd world suppliers, as
they have grown so fast, that they either did not have or what they had isn't up
to the task in regards for safety. Both their regulatory agencies and
the general population's awareness to demand it
Safety as in for the individual and the environment. They are running down the
same paths the Western world used, albeit at a much faster pace.
Anyone remember the 'Love Canal' ? There are places in both India and China that
makes our Love Canal look like a park...
Voice it to the corporate managers and the biggie Wall Street, where most of
this bottom line mentality comes from.
Bryan, the numbers Ron noodled is for a WD Hitch without the 'hook' on others
Also, it is the whole system, not just the WD Hitch system.
First thing I've always done when asked to help. Is to check tongue weight
How much force does a trunnion/round-bar with a 'hook' at the end where there
is a cam going to produce when it goes off center?
JALLEN4 it is no surprise since most of our jobs have been sent over there. The Chinese market rose to 13.6 million total units (cars, buses and trucks) compared to 10.4 million here in the States. Again thanks to Corporate America's greed and their pursuit too put as much money in their grubby little (large really) pockets as they can.
Agree and know from the inside of a $17/billion/year computer corporation
Back in the 90's argued at executive staff when the idea of outsourcing
First it was only manufacturing of 'lesser' components and assemblies
Then higher in the foodchain assemblies
Then some software coding, but no source code (crown jewels)
The exec's were always pretty steamed at my comments, as they were
making tons of money via bonuses and options because of the higher
margins afforded. I made more money too
Then they wanted to send source code to India. What the @#$#?? and
'forced' to send one of my lawyers to negotiate that deal, as I was
caught up in some other deals
She called me around 2am to ask if it was okay to have our source
code reside on the same server as Microsoft's...she knew, but needed
wanted my approval
Sent it up the pole with recommendation of 'NO'...got over ruled
but insisted that we paid for a server of our own and in another building
That was repeated throughout the corporation for the next two decades
One of my main points was that 'we' were paying to build up 'their'
infrastructure and educate 'their' staff.
Kinda sorta okay if they would now, or could not become competitive
'peers' to us...that happened when source code and other design files
were transmitted to 'them'...along with all the 'safe guards' my peers
who did the deal installed...of course not enough
'We' have not paid them to become 'peers' to our engineers and worse
yet is that engineering schools have been seeing a decline in students
and the business schools an increase (MBA)...as that is where the money is
Not just my corporation, but most all corporations I personally dealt
with and every one read about
Bottom line is that the cat is out of the bag and get used to it.
Savor of sorts is that our population is more 'outside of the box'
types than 'over there', but our kids are becoming drones just like
them what with the video games, etc...