All correct and add that bedding in is the heating of the friction
material to 'cure' it...
It will out-gas and then condense onto the cast iron
Best braking is when friction material is rubbing against friction
material condensed on the cast iron surface
Un-even coating of out-gas friction material on the cast iron will
have high/low spots that will give a pulsation...most think warped
cast iron, but not necessarily so
A very good thread and best for the lurkers out there
It is NOT that your TV can NOT do it, nor have it's wheels instantly
fall off...but...they will sooner than if below the OEM ratings
On the good days out there, just about anything 'can' do it
How well, how long, how safely, and the biggie for me...at the moment
Mr Murphy crosses your path...you either have the proper/right sized/etc
sized stuff spot on, or not...there will be no time to go back to the
store for proper/right sized/etc...nor time to re-setup
Do you really wish to be always worried about the setup because it is
just at the ratings? Watch the temp gauges like a hawk. This is supposed
to be a camping trip...AKA vacation. Not a worrisome trip. IMHO, why
I always purchase the biggest can afford and ride quality is NOT on
my 'have to have list' and is towards the bottom of my 'nice to have list'
All OEM Ratings use the stripper model (curb for the TV and dry for the
TT) and certified to the regulatory agencies to published specifications
Those specifications are defined max: incline, altitude, temp, humidity, etc, etc
On engine size and gear ratios...another 'can' do scenario. A larger
ICE (internal combustion engine) will get it going quicker and higher
top speed (faster). Be able to get it moving after stopping on a mountain
road fully loaded to GCWR (that is part of the certification testing
to regulatory agencies). Not just once, but several times within a
specified time, etc, etc
Knew most of that and mainly why I don't like 'Highly Integrated'
anything or most anything on my vehicles
Akin to the all in one FAX/Printer/Copier/FAX machines. If one goes,
the rest of them goes too.
After a few, now have individual machines for each function.
Yes, know enough about systems and computers to understand all that
It is not just weight carrying that the 'recommended' PSI listing
on the tire's sidewall and various documentation from the OEM
Weight rating is just one aspect of it and IMHO, it has to do with
keeping the tire's shape during all aspects of it's duties
Keeping its shape as in not folding or rolling over during a curve at
Keeping it within the temp range it is designed for. Both at the speed
rating and weight rating
Keeping the contact patch within spec's for acceleration, cornering
Keeping its ability to absorb shocks at max speed is another
As are *ALL* of the 'recommendations' for 'that' tire. On that, the
vehicle door label is specific only for 'that' tire listed on that
label. Those who re-engineer by changing the class and size of the
tire needs to know what they are doing. Ditto the rim width vs the
tire OEM's 'recommendation' for that tire...etc, etc
I have the same issue, I blame both my new trailer and I would like more power from the IBC...running on 10 with not enough brakes. I have adjusted my brakes twice now om my trailer with no change.
That is the nature of TV MC PSI based trailer brake controllers (also
IBC's) and why the preset is so important. Though also important to
inertia based trailer brake controllers
When the TV brake pedal is pressed...it travels a bit (varies from OEM
to OEM) BEFORE it develops any MC PSI...but most do get the brake lights
turned on BEFORE the MC develops PSI
The preset determines the starting level of voltage sent to the
trailer brakes. Or the minimum voltage sent, once told to turn on
Below is my opinion from reading up on IBC's when they first came out
and do not know if they have changed
Then the MC PSI takes over and the hysteresis is preset by the OEM
for the IBC's voltage to the trailer brakes
The amount of voltage sent is determined by the MC's PSI. Press hardere
and the IBC will send more voltage
With an inertia based trailer brake controller, once there is *ANY*
deceleration, the inertial sensor will take over with the preset
as the LOWEST starting point.
The MC PSI only manages this via the more you press & brake the TV,
the more the inertia sensor will tell the trailer brake controller
to brake more (more voltage sent to the trailer)
Not just Ford, but all of them...including foreign
"Highly Integrated" plus the over all complexity of today's vehicles
are worrisome to me...technologist all my life, so speak with knowledge
on the matter
Buddy saved all her life...hubby laughs at this...just bought a C class
and he's keeping his Ford Ranger... Scared her so much when she 'tried'
to read the manual, about an inch thick. Hubby told her to take the
'free' class...and after her first session, came home to tell hubby
that there were over 100 computers in the lowest class MB...he continues
to laugh over this.
Don't blame the dealers, nor any mechanic too much...today's vehicles
require a computer background. Even at that, the 'right' computer
background...controls and systems background are my preferred. Process
control and real time even better
My mechanic is GREAT, but lacks that background, so I've become one
of his helpers... :B Mainly discussing to get to a divide and conquer
position. He is a Master ASE on engines, trannies, AC/cooling and brakes.
He is much more than that, but those are his certificates on the wall
Had a few PM discussions over 'Highly Integrated' trailer brake controllers
and those two still don't understand how any IBC and Sway Control
system can affect ABS on the TV. Even less on how it can affect the
engine and tranny
What am trying to get across is that when the OEM has control of EVERYTHING
on the vehicle...they get creative in pinching the penny
Meaning that a P2/P3 will have that design team working only on the
trailer brake control and the interface with the TV.
They CAN NOT touch the tranny computer, nor the ECU, etc. Maybe the
trailer brake controller that plugs into the TV's network port
Since there are so many inter-dependencies for the OP's vehicle, it
is almost impossible to diag it...add that in going bad...all of these
inter-dependencies has the chance (high) of taking other systems/components
down...they might still be just barely good for now...
Most of my auto electronics is no longer good enough to today's vehicles
and turn to my mechanic more and more. My hardware tools are still golden...
So much depends...
One the brake size vs trailer size/weight and the biggie...how you
drive and where you drive
Friction material is sacrificial to the cast iron, though the cast iron
will also wear...albeit at a much lower rate
I carry tools and one set is to both re-adjust the trailer brakes during
the trip and to replace them during the trip.
Also touch the trailer brakes often during the trip. Both to check that
they are working and to keep them heated up in their working temp range
Don't currently own any trailer, but borrow from church members and/or
friends. They now know it is returned in better shape...most times.
Some times tell them they need xyz and if their brake shoes are too
low, will change them out for new shoes before I'll take it out on the
Prefer to skid them during the shake out. Around 25mph or lower. Know
that when they get up into their op temp range, they will have more
braking. Some CAN NOT skid no matter what, but now I know before starting
Another test is to stop the whole setup out there in the parking lot
WITHOUT ever getting the TV's brakes to turn on, Just touch the TV's
brake pedal enough to tell the P3 to set the trailer brakes and go no
farther with the pedal. So the TV's MC never produces PSI for the TV
brakes during that 25mph check/test/adjustment
All things designed/engineered are not for the good days out there when a half
ton 'can' tow a 'dry' Space Shuttle...
Things are designed for the bad day, or worst day out there when Mr Murphy crosses
Either you have the right sized and properly setup or not...there will be no time
to go back to the store for better/bigger/etc...nor time to re-setup. Either it
is there spot on, or not...
They why of the last two generations of GM platforms for the Suburban has a limited
receiver rating. Both dead weight and WD
Because they designed the receiver into the bumper, which has an over arching
requirement mandated by the government and insurance institutions...it has to
have a crumple zone
That crumple zone has stress raisers designed in so that it will bend/break/fold/etc
during a crash
That stress raiser becomes the limiting factor for towing heavy.
Going over any rating will not have the wheels instantly fall of...just sooner
than if within the ratings. Performance is also affected negatively.
In this case for the receiver...know that the cross tube has both beam loading
and torsion loading. In making changes to it's design (AKA Re-Engineering), it
is a requirement to know how that affects those functions. The effect might
be to introduce one or more stress raisers...to a host of other possibilities
Prime potential issue is changing the harmonics and then the stress
fractures that might induce. Most folks know that as 'tin canning'
Add what always say for anything to do with ratings...
Decide whether you believe in the OEM ratings or not.
If not, then do whatever, but know you have taken the OEM(s) off the hook for
both warranty (if there is any left) and over all liability for injury/crash/etc
If yes, then find out what your OEM(s) ratings are and follow them. Learn how
that ratings system works
Most who resort to derogatory's just don't like what is said and try to reduce
the value of that advice via the derogatory "Weight Police"...
Well...there is no policing on these freebie forums...other than policing bad
words, disrespect of others, etc...
I'll take that moniker, Weight Police, as it make no matter what the advice it,
it is up to the OP or lurker to make their own risk management decision (AKA gambling)
As all the print outs in the world from advisors saying 'you are good for it', etc
will be worth squat...as the only person responsible for the TV/trailer/etc is
So, to the OP, decide if you believe in the OEM ratings or not.
If not, then do whatever, but know that you have removed the liabilities (warranty
if there is any left) and pure liability off the OEM's back and assumed them
If yes, then find/learn what those ratings are and follow them
PS...Barney is correct. 'Restore' the front axle weight...means WD'ing
weight from the rear axle to the front axle...
This can be answered by the receiver's ratings label on your TV
It will list two ratings...one without a WD Hitch system (dead weight)
and other with a WD Hitch system
But...you will need to know that trailers ACTUAL tongue weight, not
the 'dry' tongue weight. The 'dry' tongue weight will be 450 lbs if
the tongue is a 10% of the dry weight. If your trailer weighs more
than 4,500 lbs, then it will be more using the 10%. Most trailers
will be more than 10% (best range is 12%-15%), and even using the
'dry' 4,500 a 12% tongue would be over the normal 500 lb dead weight
rating of most receivers.
Here is a quote from an old thread that has a picture of that posters
receiver rating label
Do I Need to use a WDH with an F350 SRW Powerstroke?
Look on your receiver tag for your maximums when weight carrying and using weight distribution. I know Ford upgraded the receiver since 2005 - Using mine as an example, it was rated for 500 lbs tongue weight and 5000 lbs trailer weight when weight carrying and 1250 lbs tongue weight and 12,500 lbs trailer weight when using weight distribution.
According to the 2015 towing guide, yours is rated 850 lbs tongue with 8500 lbs trailer without WDH and 1400 lbs tongue with 14,000 lbs trailer with WDH.
The reason I ask is 3500 are hard to find and go for more money used. I think it will also be harder to sell later.
Oxymoron...harder to find because they are both rare (most buy half tons...even
when they need higher class TV) and sought after by those who either "been there,
done that" with lower class or just know the metrics of towing
Oxymoron, is that it should be easy to sell it after you are done with it...as
long as you took care of it and it is not trashed
Goes in line with the 'half ton' mentality, but few understand that 'half ton'
spans 'currently' from +6K GVWR to +8K GVWR...
Still pitch that to avoid this confusion because of using marketing badging...use their
GVWR's...that does NOT change from model era to model era and is a constant over
time and is definitive
You'll be close on your weights, if not a little over on some, but you should probably be OK... unless there's a strong crosswind, or large trucks passing you on the freeway, or heavy rain, or you're going downhill, or uphill, or around a curve, or you have to brake hard and/or unexpectedly, or make a sudden course correction, or some unpleasant combination of the above. Those are the moments when you find out just how good your setup is. I try not to be the weight police, but that is a lot of trailer for that truck.
Great comment and directly so... :B
All things designed are NOT for the good days out there when a half
ton can tow the Space Shuttle (approx 165,000 lbs "dry")...but for that
worst day out there when Mr Murphy crosses your path
Either you have the right sized everything and setup correctly spot
on, or not...no time to go back to the store nor to re-setup
Why I don't provide the 'sure you can' type of advice, but metrics on
HOW2 figure it out yourself
Nothing wrong with being 100% dependent on others, or the OEM in this case, but
I'm not one of them
Being a technologist/designer/etc all my life, prefer to take stuff and adjust
them to my liking/preferences
Then that the braking characteristics of both TV and Trailer (TT or Fiver) are
not the same. Too many variables among what comes from the OEM stock to what
folks do with aftermarket products
Finally...the timing of when the trailer brakes are turned on vs when the TV
brakes are turned.
I like my trailer to lead my TV in braking by as much timing as I can dial in as
my TV has performance level products and my super tune to manage that 'push' from
any trailer braking or going down hill, etc Most TV's will out brake
most trailers...mine way more...so gotta have the trailer braking upped
to keep that balance as close as possible
Personally, am amazed and wonder what the heck were their design specifications????
Hope you guys keep reporting back on how this goes...a very interesting
topic and thread
Thanks everyone! The specs were from the manufacturer. I'll check out the door jam tonight.
What I do not understand is that the GCWR is the same for the 2500 with the 4.10 rear - and that towing capacity is 12,000 lbs. Towing 12,000 plus the curb weight of the truck would put it over the GCWR.
Specs are as follows:
Wheelbase - 130"
GCWR - 17,000 lbs
Curb Weight - 6,642 lbs
3:73 Axle (Tow rating 10,100 lbs - with a 4.10 it's 12,000)
Payload - 1,958 lbs
GVWR - 8,600
8.1 liter (496ci), 340hp, 455 torque
Jayco Eagle 314BHDS
Dry weight 8,110
Tongue 1,065 dry
MTWR, that 12,000 lbs, is based on a 'curb' TV, which is also known as
the 'stripper' model
Just take the GCWR you listed of 17,000 and subtract the MTWR 10,000
and you will have the TV's weight they used to derive all for 'your' TV
On that, is the GCWR you listed for the 3.73 or 4.1 diff gears?...that
changes just like the MTWR vs gear ratios
Another point is that you are using 'dry', so going with that to project
(guess without actual weights) is that 8,110 divided by 1,065 = 13.13%
Meaning unless you are going to tow a 'dry' trailer, the tongue will
be approx 13.13% of whatever its actual weight will be
If fully loaded to GVWR of 9,975, it will in the 1,309 lb range
Again, consider changing out the OEM receiver, it is hasn't been already
Inflation and the reference for me is that exotic's cost is about what the
AVERAGE American home costs...
When a kid and mom and dad bought our first house after renting all their lives...it
cost what an exotic cost.
Ditto my first house...exotic's were in the same price range
Ditto today...albeit the pricing is all over the map as the choices are so
Just a point of reference...
Suggest you familiarize yourself with the goal of all these dials, knobs
The goal is to have the setup as close to correct for 'your' TV & trailer
TV manual will tell you how much to WD from the rear axle over to the
front axle. The old rule of thumb no longer applies, as the TV OEMs
have vary different suspensions these days
Some will say return front height to what it was before hooking up. Some
will say to get withing 1/2" higher, etc, etc, etc, etc
The trailer tongue should be level at it's highest pointing and I
prefer pointing slightly down
Unless you know the loaded trailer tongue, you will only be guessing
So best to go out and weigh the setup axle by axle. WD tensioned and
Then know what each dial/knob/etc adjustment does and what for
Have seen newbies and even some old timers go in circles to find
that their tongue weight was really much too low/high and/or that
their pointing was too high all along