DW and I had a Forest River popup prior to our current Sunset trails Hybrid.
To be blunt the forest river was junk. We bought brand new, and the first trip out, half the 12v fuses blew, there was sawdust everywhere every time we moved the thing, not to mention a different screw or piece of hardware would be found rolling around on the floor. It leaked water from new, (from the exterior, not the bunks though), the plumbing leaked, and the front was rotten within a year. It was truly a piece of junk.
Although it is a different product completely, our Sunset Trails hybrid is a wonder. 2 years old, over 7000 miles, and over 60 days camped in it, and it continues to amaze with a complete lack of problems.
I just stumbled accross a spec that hints at my problems with the 2000i. Peak inrush current on the PD9260 is 47 amps. Right at startup no doubt. The fact that it overloads in an eye blink suggests the modules that wee changed out were the same. Given the debacle that unfolded at CPE when we tried getting them ordered, I would not be surprised.
I run one of these, and toss a small rug over it to shut it up in campgrounds.
I will say this though, I had a critical part quit working at just under 100 hours ( I had stated nearly 200 elsewhere, but I was wrong). Might be the heat from throwing a blanket on the fuel tank, but also it was a failure others have had as well.
Have it your way. I am not inclined to stoop to a level of "mendacity" - or lying. I have not used such terminology for your constant and incessant reports of a CPE2000i not being able to even charge one group 24 battery. In fact, despite the lack of any video proof, I have accepted all you have published as being true for your personal experiences and tried to come up with a "why". Personally, I still do not understand why you have had so many problems. If my two CPE2000i units performed the same I would have two new anchors for my boat.
I'm glad you got the 1200 synchronous unit working again. I own both a CPE1200 and a Kawasaki 1400. They are exceptionally sturdy little units providing excellent performance at a price well below any inverter generator.
I apologize Professor. I was steaming mad when I wrote that, it was inappropriate. I hope you can understand,(where I'm coming from, not my stupid remarks) if you have ever bought something, based on a glowing report, and it ended up being a steamy pile that caused you repeated headaches?
My experience with 3 - 2000i's and a total of 5 inverter modules were all the same. I have a tough time accepting what was being said, partially because the experience you related on Woodalls, which struck me as not consistant with my experiences with the Honda in particular. I saved all the Emails between Paul and I, and as I recall, you had to get involved to get Paul to ship me the modules that he kept promising me for over a month. It is a possibility that I got modules that were not in fact updated, as they made no positive difference. I emailed him videos of the problem, and unfortunately I do not have the videos anymore.
Interesting as per the Profs testing, the Yamaha 2000's were "the worst if the bunch".
(I think I understand what's going on here now... ie: certain dispariging reports of other brands, cheer leading, "inside" info on updates and such...)
Anyhow, I got my semi - trusty 1200 watter going again, and life is good.
Nice not getting a dozen overloads/shutdowns/restarts just to charge a couple batteries....
I notice a level of mendacity passed off as something else on this thread, so I am going to go on my way. Only here, and only once have (okay, maybe on a certain blog ;-)), have i ever read about the CPE 2000 even coming close, let alone outperforming (!!), honda and yamaha gensets. But to readers of this thread, everything I reported back is unbiased, and truthful from my experiences. (Remember, I still run a CPE product as my genset of choice, just not a 2000i). So.... good luck and caveat emptor.
Why do you assume the Honda would not? I've never heard or seen that, I have no reason to believe it could not. There are Youtube vids of the Honda putting out 2100+ watts to the CPE's 1700.
Show me a test of over 1700 VA for the Champion. I have never seen one. Did I mention the circuit breaker is only 13 amps? There is no way the Champ will ever put out more than 1600 VA (and then only under the correct PF), for more than a short while. Perhaps one might be able to squeeze 1700 out of the non circuit breaker model. But it's all a moot point unless you plan on running a lights, heaters, of hair dryers off of it exclusively. But at the end of the day, unless there is some sort of "soft start" device in play, the CPE is likely to not even get past 400 milliseconds.
And professor, how did the Champ compare to the Honda when the honda can easily output over 2000 watts? I am a little lost on that aspect.
I agree, the Honda is very forgiving. 2000 watts for 30 minutes. That may be what you need for what you are doing.
I came home from camping on Monday, unhitched and unplugged at about 2pm. The fridge is still on propane. Water heater is off. Slide out was opened. Today, at about 10am, I went out and metered the two batteries which are in parallel and are BCI group size 29. The voltage was 12.6. I turned on 3 of the 12 volt camper light fixtures which illuminates 4 bulbs. Ran them for 6 hours. Repeat voltage was 12.37. I set up 1 of my Champion 2000 watt inverter generators and plugged it with all the circuit breakers off. My panel is at the door, so this is an easy task. Using a Kill-a-Watt to measure the volt-amps I obtained a reading of 1015va. This lasted for several seconds and then dropped to 815va and numbers continued to drop over time as the batteries charged. My WFCO is rated for 950 Watts. Using some simple math... 1600watts (I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the Champion inverter generator probably should say volt-amp as does the Honda in their manual). So, 1600va * 0.60 (power factor)= 960 watts. 10 more watts than the rating of the WFC0. I do not know the power factor or rating of your Progressive Dynamics converter. You do state that you run your batteries down. I think you are maxing your converter and thus maxing the Champion Inverter generator. The Honda, like I said will run at its max 2000va rating for 30 minutes. The Champion, 5 seconds. Of course, as time goes in terms of production or programming, I do not know if this has changed. Your issue appears to be charging your batteries. What condition are they in? Lead acid batteries are damaged by deep discharges. Are they real deep cycle batteries? Not combination or starting batteries.... If you take a deep cycle battery down to near death, you are damaging them. Anyhow, just throwing some stuff out. Good luck.
The CPE will NEVER EVER NO WAY NO HOW, put out 2000VA. Not for 5 seconds, not for 1 second.
When I did my testing, (last spring) and I will need to double check these numbers, but as I recall the WFCO pulled around 1600VA at full output, and the Champ overloads at 1540VA (950 watts or so) continuous. The bigger problem is the Champ can't handle even a small surge over those amounts. The ceiling is 1300VA when PF is a factor. The engine never once revved to full RPM My batteries are fine. I recall that the Champ will put out around 1700 watts, which is okay, but never 2000 watts. 200 milliseconds does not justify putting a 2000 watt spec. Even with the upgraded modules, I never saw over 1700 watts, it just delayed the overload by an extra 200 milliseconds. It is quite simply a 1700 watt generator, or a 1300 VA generator.
My PD draws 1160VA from a house receptacle, or 900VA from my CHP 1200 watter. I never measured the PD from the 2000i, as it was an emergency loaner.
What bothered me the most was after I got the 2 group 24's on my Dads trailer charging, the 2000i was not even revving up, so I would try to re-connect the GRP 27, (which was approx 11.9-12v, and the CPE would just overload, requiring me to disconnect all batteries, and do it all over again. I know that this is no particularity to my Dads trailer, as mine behaved the same way, with both converters.
It was a very well written article!
As for the 2000i, I was debating buying one again as a spare generator, because it really bothered me being left without power for our AC. Also, I could then lend it to my dad to twin them to run his AC. After in excess of 50 overloads just get get his WFCO charging, and more than a dozen to get my PD (on float), and my AC, (4.6 amps), I decided a Honda 2000 is the way to go for me. Especially now that the CPE costs $560 taxes in, or $925 for the Honda delivered to the border.
FWIW - My father in law owns a Honda 2000, and it never had any issues, and he is much less careful with his generator.
I had an accident last night towing in the rain. I was even anticipating it seconds before impact. Hi hun this road has tons of hills, stop lights, and moderate traffic. Crested the hill to a green light and saw stalled traffic. Oh **** and 4 wheel lockup hydroplane down the hill and hit a tahoe at 10mph. Airbags did not deploy but major damage to our k3500, and 3 bikes on the front hitch. Speed limit 50MPH, SECONDS TO SAY OH ****. 300 yards boom!
With a 14 year old rig you should be taking it very easy anyhow! You would have been 10 times safer going 10 mph faster in a modern vehicle with ABS, brake porportioning, stability control, trailer sway control (and whatever other electronic nannies I have left out) and 4 wheel discs. That is the crux of what many are saying, newer more capable vehicles can stop and avoid accidents better. I was going to ask why you didn't use the steering wheel too avoid hitting anyone? I assume the brake lock / panic situation didn't allow time too consider that option. And with a K3500, it islikely that only the front wheels were actually locked and or doind anything.
Please, don't even go there. My "friend" at CPE is now retired, CPE is probably PO'ed at me for insisting that there are module upgrades, I own at least three other brands of generators - one a 2000 inverter. I think it is fair to say my "relationship" with CPE is on a par with my ex-wife.
Yes, I have PF issues - but not as severe as you report. I do not doubt you are being honest. I would like to know what it is electrically that makes things so different between your 2000i/camper and mine. I would imagine you would like to know as well. :)
It also occurs on my Dad's trailer. When hosting people, and miss proper hours to recharge, we tend to run our batteries to 12v and under. Perhaps you are more kind to your batteries?
And having owned other brands of generators, you must acknowledge these gennies are a little more fussy.....
I only impugned your impartiality because the following statement....
"After conducting some extensive side-by-side power testing and a comparison of noise levels with competing models from Honda, Kipor and Yamaha I was pleased to find that the new CPE 2000i performed as well as the competition. I have been extremely impressed with the CPE 2000i performance, design and build quality."
I feel the 2000i is very well put together, fairly refined from and NVH perspective, and likely to last. But to suggest it is on par performance-wise really makes me wonder. That's all, not trying to be a knob, it is just a fact that the performance gap is substantial, especially under surge, and bad PF loads. Even resistive loads it trails the Honda by a solid 15%. Reactive loads and surges it approaches 50%. That would probably be the most "tested" area on a smaller genset. Resistive loads are easily tested, but seldom the primary use of a small generator, IMO. (At which the CPE 2000i is a solid 1600 / 1700 watt peak genset). At best it is a 1300 VA genset to Honda's 2000VA
What is the voltage of the batteries before you recharge them? For kicks and giggles...what is the voltage of your Champion Inverter with and without a load?
If you can, find a smaller tool like an electric drill or small compressor. Just curious what the voltage drops to when initially loaded.
I am now home from camping, and have to use vague figures, but unloaded voltage was right near 120v, and never wavered much at all, the overload was less than 1/2 a second, and the engine never struggled. The battery voltage on my dads trailer before overload city happened, was exactly 12.0volts, as per my meter. No signs were being exibited that the batteries were "dead", so I assume that is an accurate reading. I need to have over 12.5 volts to be able to start without having to set the PD without having to select either of the other modes to avoid overload.
Sorry for the vageries, but metering wasn't going to help me in the situation. The newer modules are ever so slightly better than the old ones, but sometimes I can get it all working, and then 10 minutes later, it just overloads. And I can assure you that the overload is with only the converter breaker on.
Hard to fathom why my 1200 watter handled this load with aplomb, and the 1600 watter won't even try. I was again considering the 2000, now that I have the PD, but this was way to frustrating. ...The answer is easy once you know what it is :-) It's a combination of power factor, poor regulation of small synchronous generators, and the PD converters having a weak output with less than .
I understand that and that is not what I was suggesting. I fully understand the PF and the dynamic nature of the current draw from converters. My point was, what is the likely use for a 2000 watt inverter gen? RVing! Why not make a unit that can reliably tackle the most BASIC task that it will face. Techno Mumbai jumbo aside... It is good to look at that aspect, but this thread has become a crutch of excuses, never need until Champion decided to compete with other similarily model numbered generators.
It plain old does not work reliably under a normal, everyday situation. It has but one task, to reliably put out power within it's ratings. The newer models should have been "de-rated". The fact that they aren't is more telling than the long winded explanations blaming the marketing department.
Full speed, every time. Sometimes once I shed loads, then reloaded it and got it working, and put it on Eco, it idled down and overloaded.
BTW Prof - I always carry a Schumacher 15 amp charger, and booster cables as contingencies. As for why your PD "works", and mine "doesn't", maybe my lack of "relationship" with CPE is a the difference? ;-) :-) ( Kudos to Rick & Jim at CPE for great service, thanks guys! )You had mentioned the same issues with the WFCO previously i recall. Maybe my 4' parralel cables, equivalent to #1 AWG and marine batteries, with higher acceptance rate, ran to a lower SOC are the difference?
FWIW - We use and abuse various gensets at work, a couple of big Chinese noise makers, and other than fuel leaks, they behave themselves completely.
Same headaches this weekend again with a WFCO 8955 in my dads trailer. Had to disconnect all batteries (2-24's and a 27). Start the 2000, connect one battery, wait 30 minutes, connect a second one, wait another half hour, connect the third. I overloaded the 2000 with every breaker off in excess of 30 times trying to reconnect the batteries. Which mean disconnecting all the batteries each time and starting over. After 30 or do attempts, I got the three connected and the gen was not even struggling. Lo and behold it could now power my Schumacher charger on high (over 400 watts), and finally the 2000 would "load up"..
The next morning, after running for 4 hours the day before, it started upon prob, without shedding any battery loads. It never revved up even once throughout this whole ordeal, until my dad plugged in a hair dryer in the middle of all of it. It. Never triggered an overload, just revved way up. When it comes to any loads with a reasonable power factor, and not too large of a surge, the 2000i is an excellent value.
For me, it's way to much trouble to manage.
Prof, I will post a video, showing the breaker panel, PD mode, and the issues I'm having. Hopefully by Wednesday. I have my fingers crossed that by then my parts for my (semi) trusty 1200 will be here.
I will be buying a Honda next year, as much as I like to like the Champions, and I would have given the 1200 a 5 star rating, it crapping out just validates a lot of the points the naysayers have been making. It never once popped the breaker, and yet it still fried the condenser. I always monitor output voltage and frequency, so it does not get abused.
Hard to fathom why my 1200 watter handled this load with aplomb, and the 1600 watter won't even try. I was again considering the 2000, now that I have the PD, but this was way to frustrating.
Wonder if it's a power factor thing - maybe it draws short but high current pulses and the electronics in the 2000i doesn't like it. The 'dumb' 1200 doesn't care as the average draw is within its limits.
It definitely a power factor issue. But The 2000 doesn't even rev up, it's very frustrating.
The condenser failed on the 1200, FWIW. CPE is sending me one, and I bought a spare. This failure screwed up my wife's last week if holidays!
Oh yes, and it burps at random 20 second intervals, thereby eliminating any serenity a quiet generator provides.
There ya go catadjuster, a real life, honest review. Not sure how other "average Joe's", are not posting frustrated reports.
So the other day, my trusty 1200 watt CPE genny decides to fry its capacitor, leaving us with low batteries and no AC. This gen only has 186 hours on it....
Anyhow, back on topic; I reluctantly borrow my fathers CPE 2000, as the batteries are almost depleted, and here's what happened.
I started up the 2000, (maybe i'll call it the 1000, ;-)), and plug in the RV cord with ALL breakers shut off, except the breaker for my PD9260. Overload.
Okay, I set the charge pendant to float, the lowest output setting; Overload. Ummkay.
I disconnect both batteries, restart everything, plug in again, no change in generator load, good. I connect the grp24, gen loads but still okay. Connect the Grp 27, O/L again.
One more time, float, grp24 for 5 minutes, then Grp 27. Okay, so it's working now, and I set the gen to Eco. It idles as low as it will go. I try absorption after 15 minutes. Nope; overload.
I disconnect it all, restart everything, (do a hula dance...), and give it another 15 minutes. Now it will run absorption. Boost is overload city.
An hour later, boost mode works, and finally the generator idles up.
Why on earth does this thing with the upgraded modules overload repeatedly without even going full throttle? Maddening. (Spec-wise, these two should work out fine, with headroom to spare) Hard to fathom why my 1200 watter handled this load with aplomb, and the 1600 watter won't even try. I was again considering the 2000, now that I have the PD, but this was way to frustrating. I've. Ever had an issue with the 1200, until it crapped out without warning the other day, but otherwise, it was a match made in heaven with the PD.
The 2000 was Hatfield and McCoy territory....
I understand this post will be taken as blasphemy, and my credibility or knowledge will be impugned by risking upsetting "the choir". But it's all true, and very disappointing.
We are now adding battery disconnects to my dads trailer (he now has 2-24's, and a 27 to avoid this silliness.
Most of what you posted migh makes for an interesting read, but the OP was more directly inquiring about charging depleted batteries..... An almost dead grp 24 battery will take upwards of 45 amps for the first 15 minutes of charging at 13.8 volts. In the perfect world you live in where you charge your batteries to 100%, that may be wonderful. And though you may love your batteries, I do not, and they are beasts of burden, and that would seem to be the case for the OP. I go sometimes a couple weeks and my batteries nver see more than 80% charge, and spend a lot of time below 50, which also sounds like the OP.
I currently run a PD with pendant, so I know all about what you posted. That even looks like a PD graph, IIRC.
13.8V at the battery can yield as much as 50amps+ of charging.
It could crank out 100's of amps if the battery bank was large enough and the SOC (State of Charge) was low enough. For a single battery, however, it's not going to give you that much. Take a look at the chart and page below:
A 125 AH battery took about 8 hours on a 55 amp charger at 13.6 volts (the "Normal" line) to go from 50% SOC charge to get to about 75%. It took about 34 hours to climb from 50% to 90%. The Storage line is 13.2V and Boost is 14.4.
Here's what PD says about running your system constantly at low SOC, i.e., constantly undercharging your battery:
"Continuously operating a battery in a partial state of charge, or storing the battery in the discharged state results in the formation of lead sulfate (sulfation) on the plates. Sulfation reduces the performance of the battery and may cause premature battery failure."
There is absolutely NO reason to assume one cannot replace 50+ amps in an hour from that voltage, especially if the starting SOC is very low. I have seen a WFCO converter crank out 60 amps at under 13.5 volts.
According to that chart, (it's steepest - most AH in an hour - near the low SOC) you would be lucky to get from 10% SOC to 20% SOC in an hour. Even if you did get that far, you'd be nowhere near the 90%+ that is desirable to prevent sulfation. At the top end, where you want to run your system, it's very flat and takes much longer to stuff in another AH of charge. I try to run from no lower than 60% to above 90%.
You have to remember that between your TV and trailer, you are pulling thousands of pounds that do not stop on a dime.
Speed kills .....
True, but my trailer has it's own brakes, and I would guess based on having had to slam the brakes twice on my recent road trip, that my truck and trailer combo stops similarily well as the truck when not towing. Reaction time / alertness level being the determiner on stopping distance. I am not as alert when farting along "ignoring other drivers" to quote a slow poke.