In response to Shpilkah's question about the Jeep Wrangler as a toad:
We tow a 98 Jeep Wrangler (TJ) that has a 2" lift kit and modified suspension.
Pros:
- "real" 4WD vehicle (goes almost anywhere)
- hard top and soft top
- good gas mileage (~ 22 mpg - combined)
- flexible configuration with soft-top (E.g., remove rear windows, back window, or both, put down top completely)
- no speed limitations for towing
- no circulation requirements for towing (E.g., don't have to run engine every 200 miles
- easy to setup for towing (wiring lights and installing baseplate)
Cons:
- noisy ride
- rough ride
- limited cargo area
- not great for more than two passengers
- high step-in/step-out
Other Considerations:
- ~ 3,500 LBS weight (3/4 tank of gas)
- I think the 4 cylinder engine is too small, go with the inline 6 (4.0 litre)
I considered the Honda CRV and Toyota RAV-4 as possible toads, but in the end chose the TJ because it's a blast to drive. For a more practical vehicle that I would drive more often I'd probably go for the RAV-4.
Chris
2004 Holiday Rambler Atlantis 27 PBD
1998 Jeep Wrangler (toad)
1997 Yamaha V-Max (for passing RVs in the Colorado canyons)
Blue Ox Aventa II towbar & Brake Buddy
I wanted to take the time to post a response I received from Jerome Hoover, a compliance engineer with Monaco (maker of Holiday Rambler):
You are seeing evolutionary changes that have taken place with Ford E-450 chassis, and Monaco hitches, between 2001 and the present. 2001 and 2002 Ford E-450 chassis were rated at 14,050# GVWR (payload) and 18,000# GCWR (combined payload and towing). Because there was a difference of 3,950# between payload capacity and combined capacity, Monaco elected to install 3,500# hitches, thus limiting the combined capacity to 17,550#. With the 2003 Ford chassis, Ford increased the GCWR to 20,000#, which allowed Monaco to redesign the hitch installation to accept the 5,000# hitch and increase the combined capacity to 19,050#. I don’t know why the 2004 model owned by your information source was equipped with a 3,500# because my records indicate we should have already made the change.
Regardless, there was a installation change made to accommodate the 5,000# hitch capacity. I cannot authorize you to tow a vehicle greater than 3,500# unless Ford agrees that the drivetrain on your vehicle is capable of 19,050# GCWR. If local Ford dealer can confirm that your vehicle towing another vehicle of your choice will not be detrimental to your motorhome, then you could be comfortable in knowing that changing your hitch to a 5,000# capacity hitch will not cause your motorhome harm. But again, you should verify your motorhome’s capability before changing the hitch.
I appreciate your response to my inquiry; however, I am not fully satisfied by your explanation. I have taken the liberty of looking at the 2002 specifications of other Class C motorhomes manufactured by Coachmen and Fleetwood. In the case of the Shasta Cheyenne, the GCWR for all units using the E450 chassis is 20,000 pounds with a GVWR of 14,050 pounds. Please refer to http://www.coachmenrv.com/shasta/2002/index.htm. In the case of Fleetwood Jamboree, all units using the E450 chassis, with the exception of the Jamboree GT 31W, have a GCWR of 19,050 pounds and a GVWR of 14,050 pounds. The GT 31W is rated 17,550/14,050. Please refer to http://www.fleetwoodrv.com/info/2002/ja.pdf.
My question: what is (are) the difference(s) between the E450 chassis used in my Atlantis as compared to the E450 chassis used in the 2002 model year motorhomes made by Coachmen and Fleetwood. I ask that you answer the question directly and not refer me to Ford as this is a Holiday Rambler issue, not a Ford issue.
I think you'd be fine to change the hitch to a 5,000 pound hitch, but I don't know how you'd ever get Holiday Rambler to say it's okay.
It is perfectly possible for the frame extensions to be undersized for a 5000# hitch.
They were on my MH when I bought it. Fortunately I had read this forum enough to realize there could be a problem and asked the salesman how much the MH could tow. He answered 5000#. I then showed him the hitch, which was only rated at 3500#.
As a part of completing the purchase we wrote up a due bill which included the dealer increasing the hitch rating to 5000#. When the dealer's service department got the due bill, they refused to just put a 5000# hitch on the MH. They ordered a special frame extension strengthening kit and I watched them weld it onto my frame with my very own eyes.
The kit consisted of two pieces of steel aboout 6" wide by 8' long. Thickness was about 3/16". These pieces were welded onto the C-section frame extensions to make them rectangular boxes. Clearly much stronger.
Crawl under your MH with a flashlight and look at the frame extensions. If they are C-sections they are probably not suitable for a 5000# hitch or load, if they are boxed in, they probably are. If you don't know what you are looking at, take it to a hitch installer and get their opinion.
Kathy & Dave - kids: grown and gone - Yellow Labs: Amber & Crystal
2004 SunSeeker 2890 DS - RoadMaster dolly - 2004 Toyota Highlander
I did not have a chance to actually see if the frame is reinforced. I did look at the receiver hitch and found the label which states that it is rated for 3,500#. I'm waiting to hear from Monaco to find out what was done differently to other class C units to have them rated to tow 5,000#. Maybe I do need to get the frame reinforced.
Here is an update on my ongoing quest to find out if my Class C can tow a car that exceeds 3500 pounds: I have been in contact with an engineer at Monaco/Holiday Rambler. I have posted his initial response in previous posts. I received his most recent post two days ago. I will not post his entire post for two reasons: 1) his response is rather lengthy, and, 2) his tone is very sarcastic and condescending. I will post the one part of his response that contains INCORRECT information:
"Please focus your attention on the middle section of the attached (Ford) Trailer Towing Selector, entitled E-Series Cutaway/Stripped Chassis. You will notice there are four engine choices under this heading, of which I ask that you concern yourself with the 6.8L SEFI V10, and which I believe your vehicle is equipped. Next you will see that there are three available axle choices listed for the 6.8L SEFI V10. Here is the key issue. I understand that we specified the 4.56 axle ratio, and the chart indicates the GCWR for that combination was 18,500#—not the 20,000# advertised by Coachmen and Fleetwood (except for the Jamboree GT 31W). Perhaps Coachmen and Fleetwood specified the 4.63 axle ratio on the chassis they provided, and in that case, the GCWR would have been 20,000#. I don’t know. The same trailer towing guide has an individual class C motorhome marketing page that states, “Up to 14,050# GVWR and 20,000# GCWR.” That doesn’t mean they’re all 20,000# GCWR"
This individual included an attachment from Ford. As directed, I looked at the material from Ford. According to Ford, the gear ratio the engineer mentioned (4.56) was for the E-350 chassis. My MH is built on the E-450 chassis which has the 4.63 gear ratio. I contacted Ford directly to confirm that EVERY E-450 chassis made in 2001 was manufactured with the 4.63 gear ratio. The information from Ford also states that the E-450 chassis has a 20,000# GCWR. The Ford rep I spoke to confirmed this item, as well.
Let's get back to the crux of this topic: I wanted to know why my MH was rated to tow 3,500# when other similar Class C units made by different manufacturers were rated to tow 5,000#. This engineer never provided an answer; he provided incorrect information. There is an old saying that deserves repeating: If you can't impress them with knowledge, baffle them with BS. If this is the philosophy that employees at Monaco/Holiday Rambler utilize, then maybe they don't want my further business.
Here is my conclusion: for whatever reason, Monaco/Holiday Rambler elected to furnish its Class C coaches with receiver hitches rated to tow 3,500#. Given all the information I obtained from Ford, Coachmen and Fleetwood, there is no reason why I can't replace this receiver hitch with one rated to tow 5,000#.
Quote: ...Here is my conclusion: for whatever reason, Monaco/Holiday Rambler elected to furnish its Class C coaches with receiver hitches rated to tow 3,500#. Given all the information I obtained from Ford, Coachmen and Fleetwood, there is no reason why I can't replace this receiver hitch with one rated to tow 5,000#.
As near as I can tell, it was a marketing decision. I am assuming that a 3,500-pound hitch is cheaper, and thus is a good choice if your customers do not demand a 5,000-pound hitch.
There is still an issue on the frame extensions, but I think that's a red herring. As near as I can tell, no changes were made to frame extensions between models that have the 3,500-pound hitch and models with the 5,000-pound hitch. I have not been able to confirm or deny that yet, though. Still waiting to hear from Jayco on this issue.
* This post was
edited 09/02/04 10:08am by Westronics *
We took delivery of our 2004 Escapade 31A on Monday, and for what it's worth (only having it for 4 days) we're quite pleased.
Our rig was delivered with a 5000# hitch. The 04s had the 5000# hitch but it was not pointed out in the product literature by Jayco. For 05 however, Jayco made it a point to say (in their "consumer value package") that their class Cs come with a 5000# hitch. Here's the rub...
The owners manual states that I can pull 3500# with the 31A! I got on the horn with Jayco yesterday and the response from their tech (for what it's worth) confirms what many of you are saying about the frame extensions. The 31A is rated at 3500# because of the rails regardless of the hitch. I have not seen the manual for the 05's but if it says 3500# then Jayco, while making a factual statement about the 5000# hitch is misleading customers somewhat because the rigs are still only rated to pull 3500#. my 2 cents.
Jason...
Komfort 25TBS - The best (and maybe only) 25' bunkhouse slide. Sorry to part with it!
Just wanted to keep those of you who are reading this thread up to date on what has been going on. I looked through all the material I received when I took possession of my MH. The information from Ford clearly states that the 2001 E-450 gas chassis comes standard with a rear axle ratio of 4.63:1. This stated ratio results in a GCWR of 20,000#. The GVWR is 14,050#. Doing simple math (20,000 - 14,050 = 5,950#) there should be no reason why I couldn't swap my receiver hitch rated at 3,500# for a receiver hitch rated at 5,000#. I looked for the weight ratings posted in my MH. On a sheet stuck to the inside of my medicine cabinet door is a sheet from Holiday Rambler which contain both my Ford VIN and the HR identification number on it. On that sheet it clearly states that the GCWR is 19,050# and the GVWR is 14,050#. Again doing simple math (19,050 - 14,050 = 5,000) I should be able to swap my current receiver hitch for a new one rated at 5,000#.
But things don't always appear to be what they actually are. It seems that Holiday Rambler, for whatever reason(s), ordered E-450 chassis from Ford that had 4.56:1 rear axle ratio, not 4.63:1 EVEN THOUGH EVERY PIECE OF PRINT MATERIAL FROM FORD STATES THAT THE 4.63:1 REAR AXLE IS STANDARD EQUIPMENT. This rear axle has a GCWR of 17,550# thus limiting the towing to 3,500#.
But you might be wondering, as I am wondering, why does the sticker that lists all the weights for my MH state that the GCWR is 19,050#? I'm sure this sticker is required to be placed in the MH by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. I wonder what their reaction will be when I notify them of this situation.
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