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 > Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

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jmramiller

Dallas

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Posted: 11/11/07 09:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
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Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

* This post was last edited 11/12/07 09:54pm by an administrator/moderator *   View edit history


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UsualSuspect

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Posted: 11/11/07 10:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Wasn't this debated in another thread and debated numerous times in the past?


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jmramiller

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Posted: 11/11/07 10:57pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dale_S wrote:

Wasn't this debated in another thread and debated numerous times in the past?


It has been debated before but I have yet to see anyone with any enforcement experience comment on the subject. I have also never seen a citation posted related to door sticker ratings.It has several times highjacked other threads. This is why I have created a thread dedicated to the subject.

In short, I would like to finally put this one to bed by hearing from those who enforce the regs.

_Adam_

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:08pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Two things...

First... editted... Wasn't inteded to start a flame war.

Second... I have a dodge truck and the RAWR on the door jamb sticker is far less than what the actual manufacturer specifies to to be - In this situation, who is the manufacturer, Dodge or AAM, and whose specification is right or most correct?

* This post was edited 11/20/07 07:00pm by an administrator/moderator *


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Lobocop

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

jmramiller wrote:

Dale_S wrote:

Wasn't this debated in another thread and debated numerous times in the past?


It has been debated before but I have yet to see anyone with any enforcement experience comment on the subject. I have also never seen a citation posted related to door sticker ratings.It has several times highjacked other threads. This is why I have created a thread dedicated to the subject.

In short, I would like to finally put this one to bed by hearing from those who enforce the regs.


jmramiller ... I will try to respond to this in such a fashion as to not tinkle in anyones cornflakes.

Having 25 years in the field of Law Enforcement, and retiring as an Undersheriff, I will tell you that this question should be asked of Commercial Enforcement personnel, not street cops.

Short of something that is so blatantly in violation (VW towing a 30' toyhauler or a bumper dragging the ground) the average street cop wouldn't know there is a violation, and honestly, probably wouldn't care. They are not equipped to weigh vehicles and if they look at a door sticker it is typically for a VIN. In some states, such as Nevada, a few extra dollars into the DMV coffers will get your trucks registration changed for a higher weight limit anyway.

Typically, if a street cop, not assigned to commercial enforcement, issues a citation for being over weight to someone towing a travel trailer with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck ... it is because the driver opened his blow hole when he should have kept it shut. If someone did receive a cite for the violation there should be a statute or code violation listed on the cite specifying what the violation was.

Just my .02 worth.


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jmramiller

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Maybe I should have titled the thread "paging weight police". But that could attract some undesirables. Everytime I have asked someone on the commercial side as soon as I say RV they laugh.

I did upgrade the GWR on my registration to 11K. They would have let me go as high as I was willing to pay for.

Thanks for the input guys.

* This post was edited 11/11/07 11:46pm by jmramiller *

jmramiller

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:45pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lobocop wrote:

jmramiller wrote:

Dale_S wrote:

Wasn't this debated in another thread and debated numerous times in the past?


It has been debated before but I have yet to see anyone with any enforcement experience comment on the subject. I have also never seen a citation posted related to door sticker ratings.It has several times highjacked other threads. This is why I have created a thread dedicated to the subject.

In short, I would like to finally put this one to bed by hearing from those who enforce the regs.


jmramiller ... I will try to respond to this in such a fashion as to not tinkle in anyones cornflakes.

Having 25 years in the field of Law Enforcement, and retiring as an Undersheriff, I will tell you that this question should be asked of Commercial Enforcement personnel, not street cops.

Short of something that is so blatantly in violation (VW towing a 30' toyhauler or a bumper dragging the ground) the average street cop wouldn't know there is a violation, and honestly, probably wouldn't care. They are not equipped to weigh vehicles and if they look at a door sticker it is typically for a VIN. In some states, such as Nevada, a few extra dollars into the DMV coffers will get your trucks registration changed for a higher weight limit anyway.

Typically, if a street cop, not assigned to commercial enforcement, issues a citation for being over weight to someone towing a travel trailer with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck ... it is because the driver opened his blow hole when he should have kept it shut. If someone did receive a cite for the violation there should be a statute or code violation listed on the cite specifying what the violation was.

Just my .02 worth.


Lobocop,

What about State Troopers? They are the one's who are supposedly manning these "weight traps". Would they issue these type of citations and enforce these type of regs. If so, know any that could give us some incite

blt2ski

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I would suggest you talk to Wadcutter, he is a retired LEO that did wt enforcement in Illinois?

Some states do have rules that limit the axel amount to below 20K lbs. Indiana for an example only allows 800 lbs per rim inch of with. This is from a few folks posting from Indiana.

Here in Wa st, we get 20K lbs per axel, as long as you have enough tire width. For a rig with singles all around, you get 500 lbs per inch of width, if you have duals on the rear you get 600 lbs per inch width of tires all around. As such, for a SW typical pickup, with 10" tires, you get 5000 lbs per tire or 10K per axel or 20K lbs total for the vehicle, as long as you have paid for 20K lbs of GVWR. For duallies if you have 4 10" tires on the rear, you have 6000 lbs per tire for a total of 24K lbs of tires, or the max of 20K lbs per fed law. The front axel gets a total of 12K lbs, or the total of 20K + 12K = 32000 lbs total, as long as you have enough paid for GVWR. This is what is available to me on my 1 ton GM.

I am not saying it is smart to run down the road at 32K lbs in a 1 ton duallie, but it is legal to do so under federal law, and at least what laws the wts and measures DOT WSP LEO officers inforce in Wa st. Those are the laws I have to follow as a commercial driver in my state, other states.......I will not comment, as I do not drive across state lines for work. THese laws also effect ALL vehicles on the road, be them commercial or RV. BUT< most DOT officers realize, generally speaking, that RV'rs rarely are close to these limits. The one exception that I wish they would look at, are Type A MH's, these the owners go by GRAWR< which can be as high as 25-30K lbs. There limit should be, if it is not already, 20K lbs, same as commercial!

Marty


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jmramiller

Dallas

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

adamrmathis wrote:

Two things...

First... What would a LEO know about the law? LEO's only enforce it and they are subect to the same errors the rest of us are. Our lawyers and judges can't even decide on what is right or wrong, and now you want an opinion from a LEO? I'm no trying to bash any LEO's, just tring to point out that being a LEO doesn't make one correct.

Second... I have a dodge truck and the RAWR on the door jamb sticker is far less than what the actual manufacturer specifies to to be - In this situation, who is the manufacturer, Dodge or AAM, and whose specification is right or most correct?


Good questions. My understanding is that AAM rates my rear axle at 10,800#s. GM then rates the axle down to 6084#s which is the tire rating total for the two stock tires on the rear axle.

So what you are suggesting is that where the code refers to the manufacturers rating that could mean AAM's rating as they manufactured the axle?

jmramiller

Dallas

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Posted: 11/11/07 11:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

I would suggest you talk to Wadcutter, he is a retired LEO that did wt enforcement in Illinois?

Some states do have rules that limit the axel amount to below 20K lbs. Indiana for an example only allows 800 lbs per rim inch of with. This is from a few folks posting from Indiana.

Here in Wa st, we get 20K lbs per axel, as long as you have enough tire width. For a rig with singles all around, you get 500 lbs per inch of width, if you have duals on the rear you get 600 lbs per inch width of tires all around. As such, for a SW typical pickup, with 10" tires, you get 5000 lbs per tire or 10K per axel or 20K lbs total for the vehicle, as long as you have paid for 20K lbs of GVWR. For duallies if you have 4 10" tires on the rear, you have 6000 lbs per tire for a total of 24K lbs of tires, or the max of 20K lbs per fed law. The front axel gets a total of 12K lbs, or the total of 20K + 12K = 32000 lbs total, as long as you have enough paid for GVWR. This is what is available to me on my 1 ton GM.

I am not saying it is smart to run down the road at 32K lbs in a 1 ton duallie, but it is legal to do so under federal law, and at least what laws the wts and measures DOT WSP LEO officers inforce in Wa st. Those are the laws I have to follow as a commercial driver in my state, other states.......I will not comment, as I do not drive across state lines for work. THese laws also effect ALL vehicles on the road, be them commercial or RV. BUT< most DOT officers realize, generally speaking, that RV'rs rarely are close to these limits. The one exception that I wish they would look at, are Type A MH's, these the owners go by GRAWR< which can be as high as 25-30K lbs. There limit should be, if it is not already, 20K lbs, same as commercial!

Marty


Thanks Marty! Great information.

I know that here in TX the state codes say that a load on an axle can not exceed the combined tire rating for the tires on said axle. I have 265E's which have a rating a little of over 3400#s each. That would limit me to a little over 6800#'s. I am currently under that by about 1300#'s.

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