I agree that it looks like the receiver tube is flexing upwards...
but it also looks like the tongue of the trailer is a little high...
Three things I noticed:
It looks like the break away switch is on TOP of the trailer tongue...
I think I'd move that to one side or the other.
I would get the pigtail on the left side of the trailer...
Most of the setups I've seen have the pigtail coming up through the middle of the A-frame, usually in front of the bottles, then over the edge and down to the 7-way on the TV. I've NEVER seen the pigtail crossing over the hitch as yours is in the picture.
And finally, the brackets attaching the HP Dual Cam arms to the A-frame have another set of holes in the underside...
I would recommend you go to the hardware store and get four grade 8 course threaded bolts (two for each side) and install them. Better safe than sorry. You'd be surprised at the forces at work on those arms, especially when turning.
2004 Ford F350 PSD 6L 4x4 Crew Cab.
2007 Jayco Eagle 322 FKS.
Camping with DW Terry,
Bobi-Sue and Billy-Joe,
Westhighland White Terriers
Thanks for the responses/help. The weight transfer or lack of is not what bothers me so much. With driver and passenger (not listed) the weights are more favorable. What I wonder most about is if the sway control is compromised by only transferring roughly half the weight that is supposed to be transferred. I.E. only about 180 lbs is transfered off the real axle, but 330 lbs off the rear axle is what is needed to bring the front axle back to pre hitch weight. Does this lack of weight transfer create enough friction on the bars/cams to provide enough sway control? Remember, this is using the lowest set of bars...550#.
I took a few more pics of the receiver (Curt, 500/5000 with wdh) and it looks like there is an upward angle there even without anything hooked up. So I might look at either getting it replaced or getting one from a different manufacturer.
Moderator edit to make picture conform to forum limit of 640px maximum in any direction.
* This post was
edited 12/20/07 08:10am by an administrator/moderator *
TankerDude wrote: I agree that it looks like the receiver tube is flexing upwards...
but it also looks like the tongue of the trailer is a little high...
The picture is misleading in that way. The front of the trailer is actually just a tad lower, maybe 1/2 inch or so.
Three things I noticed:
It looks like the break away switch is on TOP of the trailer tongue...
I think I'd move that to one side or the other.
Just curious, but why?
I would get the pigtail on the left side of the trailer...
Most of the setups I've seen have the pigtail coming up through the middle of the A-frame, usually in front of the bottles, then over the edge and down to the 7-way on the TV. I've NEVER seen the pigtail crossing over the hitch as yours is in the picture.
Again, just curious, but why would it matter?
And finally, the brackets attaching the HP Dual Cam arms to the A-frame have another set of holes in the underside...
I would recommend you go to the hardware store and get four grade 8 course threaded bolts (two for each side) and install them. Better safe than sorry. You'd be surprised at the forces at work on those arms, especially when turning.
Yeah, I had thought about that as well...makes sense to me to do so as well, but I want to be 100% sure they are in the right spot first. Thanks for the help and keep the good comments coming.
fsds123 wrote: Thanks for the responses/help. The weight transfer or lack of is not what bothers me so much. With driver and passenger (not listed) the weights are more favorable. What I wonder most about is if the sway control is compromised by only transferring roughly half the weight that is supposed to be transferred. I.E. only about 180 lbs is transfered off the real axle, but 330 lbs off the rear axle is what is needed to bring the front axle back to pre hitch weight. Does this lack of weight transfer create enough friction on the bars/cams to provide enough sway control? Remember, this is using the lowest set of bars...550#.
I took a few more pics of the receiver (Curt, 500/5000 with wdh) and it looks like there is an upward angle there even without anything hooked up. So I might look at either getting it replaced or getting one from a different manufacturer.
Even though you did not say if you have a GM vehicle or not, here is a picture of a failed GM hitch. For some reason GM continues to use this hitch, even though at least 20 member's of Rv. Net have had failures on their vehicles. I know one member and his wife, who's hitch fell apart and have read about another member who reported his son broke his neck and his daughter was lost in a accident where his hitch failed. And the California Highway Patrol had his trailer weight verified that the Suburban was within it's capacity.
That said, your statement that you did not transfer the weight back onto the front axle that was there before getting hitched up - I think you are attempting to do something that is un-realistic.
The 550 pound weight rating on the hitch bars is the overall hitch weight rating, and not how much weight will get transfered by that hitch.
So if you where towing a 6,000 pound trailer with a 750 pound hitch weight, then the bars would be to small. But a 4,000 pound trailer with a 550 pound hitch weight is just right for those bars.
I would not expect to transfer more than 200 pounds off the rear axle, and you have transfered 180 pounds.
Your hitch weight is 500 pounds, and that much weight is pushing down on the rear end, about 4' behind the rear axle (the pivot point) and that caused over 200 pounds to be removed from the front axle. Tightening the bars returned 120 pounds to the front axle, while transferring 60 pounds to the trailer's axles.
So I would say you are set-up correctly, unless you have a GM quick release hitch.
Fred.
* This post was
edited 12/20/07 12:04am by Golden_HVAC *
Money can't buy happiness but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche or Country Coach!
First off IF after we get some more information and you are 100# light on the front end, then yes I agree you may not yet be optimized.
BUT before that we need a few other things. Can you tell us what make/model/year this van is? and the camper as well?
And ideally what does the drivers door sticker state for GAWR-FRT and GAWR-RR?
This will give us some more about your entire rig in general.
Now to the weights. By the scaled numbers you gave us, I would say your front end is not where it needs to be. BUT then you said everyone was not inside when you weighed it. To do this so you know where you are at, you need everyone and everything in the van at the time you did the scale measurements. The WD is going to change when you change the weights inside, especially if more weight is stored in the van aft of the rear axle. So give us a little more info here and we can see how close or not your scale numbers are to the actual loaded situation. Adding 200 or 500# of people plus more stuff in the van can help or hurt the situation pending where it is added.
Now to your comment on what gives with the hitch head. You may have 2 things working against you.
1.The Reese round bar head does not have a lot of rearward head tilt. That rotating washer has tilt positions for forward tilt and rear ward. It means you may only have 2 or 3 positions backward tilt and I think it is only like 5 to 6 degrees rear tilt as the other part of the tilt goes toward the van. This is just the way that head is made. We have had othre forum members run into this same situation pending certian TV setups.
2.Next area is lost motion in the reliever to the hitch shank. Your one pic of the hitch head unhitched from the truck shows a few things. First, your hitch head is almost parallel to the ground before you ever hitch up. Unless this is an optical illusion from the picture.
You also do not have the 5/8 pin in yet and lifting up on the back of the hitch shank to take all the play out. When you do this the head will tip forward to the van making your problem even worse
If appears by the pic’s you used up most all your head tilt and never hooked up to the TT yet.
At this point your receiver may not be the problem, yet. We or you do not know enough about it from what is posted so far.
See this post here where I showed another forum member how to measure the angle of receiver flex and determine the lost motion in ones hitch setup. There are pic’s and everything to show this.
Here are a few quick experts. Lost motion occurs here with this amount of play. Play here is normal but pending what hitch head you have and other factor is eats up head tilt.
When you lift the rear of the hitch head that play is taken up, but again it use head tilt to do so.
You can see here on this shank setup, the head is tilted backward before ever hitching up.
And once you apply WD, the head become more parallel to the ground.
In your case, your head appears it is already mostly parallel to the ground before you ever hitched up.
I do not think we yet know what your problem is. If your receiver has an upward tilt of 2 degree unhitched, the lost motion is 2 degrees, and your hitch head can only tilt back 5 degrees, well this is part of the issue.
For me to recommend a fix or what to do, need more info. That looks like a new receiver from the paint job, what brand/model # and what WD rating does the sticker have on it?
Hope this helps
John
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we where camping!)
This is a 2005 Toyota Sienna towing a 2000 Shasta Ultra Flite 2537
The van's GAWR are
Front: 2850
Rear: 2850
The van loaded with driver and passenger and hooked up to trailer is:
Front 2580
Rear 2680
The van empty and no trailer is:
Front 2480
Rear 2020
The pin is actually installed in the pic, just hard to see.
The receiver is a Curt Hitch 13256. I think the problem is with the receiver...when I bought the receiver it was simply rated at 500/5000 weight carrying. I bought it to tow my boat, and did not use a wdh. When I went looking for a TT I realized it did not have a WDH rating. I emailed Curt and asked if it would be possible to use a wdh like their competitors hitches. They then changed the hitches rating to 350/3500 weight carrying and 500/5000 weight distributing. I think this is quite odd...they simply lowered the weight carrying ability and added a weight distributing ability to match the competition.
I think they didn't have the weight distribution in mind when making this receiver and thus didn't care about the pin box having an upward tilt.
With the van loaded with driver and passenger and "stuff" and hooked up the front wheels are heavier than the van by itself, so there is enough weight there. I just wonder if the bars/cams can do their sway control jobs when only roughly half the weight is being distributed.
Isn't the sway control part of the setup dependent upon having enough weight/friction on the cams/bars? If the bars are only able to distribute half the weight they were designed to distribute, does that also cut the sway control in half?
Most likely I'll buy a new receiver tomorrow that was designed from the get go to be used with a wdh.
fsds123 wrote: This is a 2005 Toyota Sienna towing a 2000 Shasta Ultra Flite 2537
The van's GAWR are
Front: 2850
Rear: 2850
The van loaded with driver and passenger and hooked up to trailer is:
Front 2580
Rear 2680
The van empty and no trailer is:
Front 2480
Rear 2020
Thanks, it helps as we continue talking here as we may be getting closer to what may be your issue.
fsds123 wrote:
The pin is actually installed in the pic, just hard to see.
The receiver is a Curt Hitch 13256. I think the problem is with the receiver...when I bought the receiver it was simply rated at 500/5000 weight carrying. I bought it to tow my boat, and did not use a wdh. When I went looking for a TT I realized it did not have a WDH rating. I emailed Curt and asked if it would be possible to use a wdh like their competitors hitches. They then changed the hitches rating to 350/3500 weight carrying and 500/5000 weight distributing. I think this is quite odd...they simply lowered the weight carrying ability and added a weight distributing ability to match the competition.
I think they didn't have the weight distribution in mind when making this receiver and thus didn't care about the pin box having an upward tilt.
H'mm this does seem odd that a manufacture would change ratings mid stream on shipped equipment. If the hitch was good for 500# weight carrying before why would they de-rate it??? In case something is confused in the emails exchange, I agree I know I would not want to use hitch components without tagged markings on them for the correct ratings. If it is rated as a WD receiver and the sticker says so, then there is no misunderstanding. If it does not state a WD rating, I personally would not use it.
If that particular receiver is pointing up from the get go, this can be an issue when trying to use it as a WD hitch pending the exact hitch. Ideally the pin box is level but not allways is it. On some TV's where they have an "attitude" or natural angle to them, front lower, rear high, this puts an angle to the pin box due to the TV. This is what it is. But if the receiver aggravates this do to the way it is made,it will not help your situation with the style round bar hitch head. If you have the HP trunnion bar hitch that the head tilts back a full 15 degrees, it could adjust to compensate for a naturally angled pin box or TV.
fsds123 wrote:
With the van loaded with driver and passenger and "stuff" and hooked up the front wheels are heavier than the van by itself, so there is enough weight there. I just wonder if the bars/cams can do their sway control jobs when only roughly half the weight is being distributed.
Isn't the sway control part of the setup dependent upon having enough weight/friction on the cams/bars? If the bars are only able to distribute half the weight they were designed to distribute, does that also cut the sway control in half?
Most likely I'll buy a new receiver tomorrow that was designed from the get go to be used with a wdh.
I appreciate all the help.
I do not know if I missed it or not in your weights, but the best way to set WD on a TV is when it is fully loaded. The lighter TV/TT's are even more pronounced by weight changs when they are not fully loaded. You did the axle weighing in the correct procedure, however ideally you need to get the weights with all people, full gas and all stuff on board. The WD is affected by cargo of any type in the TV. How much it is affected depends on the TV and the amount of weight. For example, a 100# of fire wood added in the back of a 3/4 ton TV with a TT tongue weight of 1,100# does not affect the WD the same as a small SUV with a 500# tongue weight and that same 100# of fire wood added to the TV. Point being, the lighter TV and TT need to account for the internal cargo more as a general guide.
Now to this statement:
fsds123 wrote:
I just wonder if the bars/cams can do their sway control jobs when only roughly half the weight is being distributed.
Isn't the sway control part of the setup dependent upon having enough weight/friction on the cams/bars? If the bars are only able to distribute half the weight they were designed to distribute, does that also cut the sway control in half?
Before I go too far down a wrong road of typing, what do you mean by bars/cams and sway control when only 1/2 the weight is distributed? Why are you shooting for 1/2? What are you declaring is proper WD for your TV? And where did you find this? It might be, just asking, but getting an even 50/50 split could be a challange.
I'll make these general statements to see if they can help you.
The Reese DC is a very good part of sway control. However it will not solve all issues that need to be in place to create a stable towing rig.
TT tongue weight balance is very critical to establishing a stable towing rig. This proper balance creates a stable towing trailer all by itself. The DC will not overcome all conditions created by an unbalanced TT and sway that can come from it.
In your case, you posted 500# tongue weight on a trailer GVW of 4,080# (TT axles of 3,580 + 500# tongue= 4,080#) 500/4080# = 12.3% tongue weight per TT GVW. This is an OK tongue weight. At times slightly more may help create more friction at the DC and help give more resistance to sway conditions. However the TV has to be able to handle more tongue weight and so do all hitch components.
TV tires play a role in anti sway. The air’ed up, stiffer side wall tire is an active part of anti sway control. Soggy tires even when WD is correct and the DC correct, you can get an instability that forces a steering correction for soggy tires.
All axles at our under there raings. You are here on this one, Good.
The DC it self. It should be optimized dead on with the cams and the V groove of the spring bar. If there is a lot of off center here, the hitch can hunt to find center some times. When checking the DC, bend down and look in the keeper hole with a flash light to see the bar is centered on the cam on both sides with the TV driven straight for about 100 feet. See pic
And next is the WD on the TV itself. This is what we consider hitch setup. A part of this is to get a level towing TT when you are all done adjusting the WD. And leveling is done by hitch shank adjustments up and down. If level is not exactly obtainable, a slight nose down is generally more preferred over nose up.
WD is used to offset the rear axle loads from hitching up with a tongue on a ball hitch. WD should be set to allow the TV to become stable when towing. Part of this is to return the front axle to an acceptable weight for towing to allow steering to still be good and not to do something to the front end suspension that your specific TV does not like. On some TV's applying a lot more weight then unhitched to the front end can create a level of suspension issues. However not all TV's are created equal. Does you owners manual state anything about WD hitches and what the front end should be set to? Most are at least to be returned to unhitched weight. Some brands allow up to the full axle ratings. But not all. So need to figure out what you have and what it will allow.
WD on the rear axle needs good traction to not skid in turns or wet surfaces with the TT pushing you. By over applying weight from the rear axle to the front, can at times have a negative effects on rear end stability.
Basically as I have found, WD is set to put the TV back in good shape to towing. Not to create an ultra high friction force on the DC.
If you are trying to force more weight on the spring bars to gain more sway control effectiveness, there may be another area that is not optimized causing the instability. Basically putting it, when the WD is set for the TV, the front axle and suspension are OK, the rear axle is what it is and not overloaded, what friction is on the WD bars is all you have to work the DC. The normal other way to get more friction force is to increase tongue weight and then reset the WD. But again the hitch and TV have to be able to take the added tongue weight.
There is an active post now on What is proper WD for your TV and why? It might be of help and please post what you find to be proper for your TV or ask away there as well if you have any questions. There are a lot of opinions on what is proper WD for a TV. And most have validity for some specific TV’s. However the one size fits all does not always apply.
Hope this helps or points you to other places to go looking. When you get done, please post back what you find/corrected. We too learn from you and your rig setup. And any questions, fire then out too.
John
EDITS:12-23-07 Fixed grammer mess up. Sorry it was late
* This post was
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edited 12/23/07 08:49am by JBarca *
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TankerDude wrote: I agree that it looks like the receiver tube is flexing upwards...
but it also looks like the tongue of the trailer is a little high...
The picture is misleading in that way. The front of the trailer is actually just a tad lower, maybe 1/2 inch or so.
Three things I noticed:
It looks like the break away switch is on TOP of the trailer tongue...
I think I'd move that to one side or the other.
Just curious, but why?
I would get the pigtail on the left side of the trailer...
Most of the setups I've seen have the pigtail coming up through the middle of the A-frame, usually in front of the bottles, then over the edge and down to the 7-way on the TV. I've NEVER seen the pigtail crossing over the hitch as yours is in the picture.
Again, just curious, but why would it matter?
And finally, the brackets attaching the HP Dual Cam arms to the A-frame have another set of holes in the underside...
I would recommend you go to the hardware store and get four grade 8 course threaded bolts (two for each side) and install them. Better safe than sorry. You'd be surprised at the forces at work on those arms, especially when turning.
Yeah, I had thought about that as well...makes sense to me to do so as well, but I want to be 100% sure they are in the right spot first. Thanks for the help and keep the good comments coming.
My main 'thing' on the break-away switch and the pigtail is clearance when in a turn. Things like that pigtail can get pinched enough to cut them it half.
On the HP Dual Cam brackets, the instructions on mine indicated that the two sets of holes were for use on two types of A-frames. IMHO it's better to fill those holes up with a fastener... again, better safe than sorry.
Are you wondering whether the brackets are mounted in the right place? I'd say that if you followed the installation directions, they should be fine. Those arms have lots of adjustment to them.
If you're still having problems after all the replys to your post, my recommendation would be to start from square one.
Measure the height of your TV front and rear. Record those measurements. I use the top of the wheel well openings, directly over the axle as a reference point.
Get the TT level front to back, and measure it also. Record those measurements.
I believe the next thing I'd do is move the hitch head one hole lower on the shank. Use the procedure in the HP Dual Cam instructions to center up the TV and TT (on level ground) and reset the Dual Cam arms to their proper position within the V-groove, as was illustrated by JBarca in his reply.
Hook up the TV/TT, wdh included using the same number of links you're using now, and measure the TV and TT again. Compare the second set of measurements to the first set, and you'll be able to tell if the TV is nose high, the TT is nose high, etc.
The ideal condition is to have the TV and TT level when fully loaded for a trip.
Generally:
Use the height of the hitch head to level the trailer when it's hooked up ready for the road.
Use the hitch head angle adjustment to level the TV when it's hooked up ready for the road.
I hope you don't mind me chiming in here, but something caught my eye.
You mentioned that the TV is an '05 Sienna. I used to have an '04, and its max tow rating was 3500 lbs with a max hitch weight of 350 lbs. Did the ratings significantly increase for '05? That would be nice if they did; the Sienna is such a nice van in so many ways.
If the '05 ratings are similar to the '04's, then it looks to me like you've done quite a good job of setting things up, given that the trailer would be over a couple of limits. (Not meaning to criticize here at all; you've done and are doing your homework with regard to GAWR and all.)
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