George,
I am another who recommends the Arctic Fox 5th wheel. Not as fancy as some of the other brands, but very well built, and truly a "4 season" camper.
I find it interesting that most of the people who are suggesting the Arctic Fox don't own one themselves (yet recommend them even over their own rigs....)
They have a great reputation for build quality and below freezing performance. They also have some great footprints under 30 feet long.
Have fun!
Mark
04 Ameri-Camp F321QBS
08 F-350 CC 4x4 LB PS 6.4
2007 Sea Ray 175 Sport
Honda EU2000I (x2)
RDS 51 Gallon Fuel/Toolbox Combo
bearsnob. It may be of great benefit to the OP to give him a run down of what mods you had to make to Stay "Toasty" at -22 degrees and how much propane you had to use and how much it cost you. I stand with this statement'''''
richfaa wrote:
A word about cold weather camping.These are "Recreational Vehicles" They are not intended to be lived in full time or to be lived in in extremely cold weather. now many folks do both but not without many self modifications. The terms. Artic Package" and "all season units" are marketing terms and mean little. Artic Fox is a fine Rv and better than others for cold weather living. Take one of these things any brand in extremely cold weather and you will freeze and will not be able to buy enough propane to stay warm.'''
I mean we wintered in Apache junction,Az last winter. Dec 1 to March 15 and used 11 tanks of propane and it was no where near extremely cold.
I take back "you will not be able to buy enough propane to keep warm" but he may wantt to know how much propane and what it cost.Living in those kind of Extreme cold conditions in any brand camper will be a difficult task.We should not make it sound easy..
richfaa wrote: I take back "you will not be able to buy enough propane to keep warm" but he may wantt to know how much propane and what it cost.Living in those kind of Extreme cold conditions in any brand camper will be a difficult task.We should not make it sound easy..
I reread all of the above responses and I just don't see us making it sound "easy." I would still argue that it isn't difficult either. FWIW, here is a little more detail of what I do.
We're probably talking about different things. Are you talking about dry camping? I would agree that it is more difficult to dry camp in extreme cold and still keep all amenities going. For me, if extreme temps are predicted while I'm dry camping, I make life easier by draining all holding tanks and blowing out the water lines until the cold snap is over. I fill a 7 gallon water jug and place that on the counter. It has a tap and I use that for fresh water. So I just rough it like this until the cold snap is over. To do otherwise and still keep from freezing up would be somewhat difficult, would use a lot of propane, and the constant running of the furnace fan would certainly challenge even a large bank of batteries. So, if you were talking about dry camping in extreme cold with running water, hot showers, etc., there is a definite challenge there. It can be done, but it would involve many modifications, a large battery bank, a reliable generator to recharge the batteries, and you'd be lucky if both propane tanks lasted three days.
The story is completely different if you have hookups. Our rig came with holding tank heaters, so you turn those on (two switches). Through trial and error, I learned where to place three 100 watt light bulbs and that prevents the water lines from freezing. The alternative would be heat tape and pipe insulation. I just haven't got around to doing that yet. If the electric is included in the fees I pay, I run space heaters. We have a nice one in the bedroom that is actually an electric fireplace. Man does that thing pump out the heat and the bonus is that the fire looks real. Okay, so that's another switch. I have two space heaters in the living are with one on a programmable thermostat. Most of the winter, that's all we need. As it gets colder, we just turn the other one on low or high depending on how cold. That's two more switches. So, from my point of view, this setup isn't all that complicated or difficult to put into action. Unlike the OP, my wife doesn't do well in the cold. So we keep the living area at 75 degrees and the bedroom is closer to 80. She would need it even higher if we didn't have the heated mattress pad and we have done that once when the mattress pad broke.
Now, if we are paying the electric in addition to the park fees, we use a combination of electric and propane heat to keep costs down. I won't go into the details of that setup because its pretty boring. But we did invest in two catalytic heaters, a large one in the living area and a medium sized one in the bedroom. Combined, they use about a third the propane as running the furnace. They help out both under these conditions and when dry camping. So we just turn on the catalytic heaters, skip the furnace, run a space heater using the programmable thermostat, and let the electric keep the tank heaters, light bulbs, and mattress pad going. We stay nice and cozy and, again, its not difficult doing so. Also, the two propane tanks last about a week when we are getting down to zero or below. Also, when staying for more than a couple of months, we keep propane costs down further by having the local propane company deliver a large tank which they keep full for us by coming by and filling as need. Its cheaper than taking the RV tanks to be filled and extremely convenient.
The above works well, but I did make one improvement this past season. I made a skirt that encloses the entire underside of the FW (including the pin box area). It cost me about $50 to make, but the process was rather time consuming. Now that its done, I can put that on in less than 30 minutes and take it down even faster. So we will be using it even when moving around quite a bit. The difference it makes is huge. Right away you notice how much warmer the floor is and how much less energy you need to keep the rig warm. Definitely worth the time and money.
Bill, Carol & Striker The Cat
2005 Everest 323k
1989 Ford F-350 Crew Cab, 460, 5 spd, 4.30 axle
Everest owners: check out the Everest Owners Club.
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Now that sounds more like it....Many self modifications for extreme cold living.
We have pretty much the same unit you do so we understand what would need to be done to make it livable in extreme cold weather. It is, Artic package and all, not suited for cold weather living.
richfaa wrote: Now that sounds more like it....Many self modifications for extreme cold living. We have pretty much the same unit you do so we understand what would need to be done to make it livable in extreme cold weather. It is, Artic package and all, not suited for cold weather living.
I guess I'm still unclear what you are getting at. If you are saying that FWs are not suited for cold weather living, I guess I need to know what you consider cold weather living. My rig, without modifications, and even without the holding tank heaters (which were not self-modifications), does very well down to 20 degrees F. Most would consider that "cold weather living." But what we were talking about was "extreme cold." I'm saying I didn't have to do much at all to handle extreme cold when I have hookups, especially electricity. Do you consider plugging in a space heater to be a self-modification? Do you consider placing some light bulbs in a few strategic places to be difficult? You just buy an outlet with a six foot cord and plug it in. Cost is less than $5 per light and time to install is literally minutes. As for the catalytic heaters, many people put them in for recreational use. Its not anything unusual to have them on board. Yes, they save me money on propane, but they save everyone on propane. AND they aren't necessary because the furnace that comes with the RV is more than up to the task. So I just don't get what you are talking about, unless...
Unless you are talking about dry camping in extremely cold temps. Again, without any modifications, I'm good dry camping down to 20 degrees F. So I'd say my FW, which isn't as good as an Arctic Fox in terms of being built for cold, does very well in cold temps. The problem is dry camping in extremely cold temps. That's where I agree that you need to get aggressive on self-mods if, and only if, you want to have all amenities working. If you are willing to go without running water to get through a period of extremely cold temps, the rig does quite well except it does, as you point out, burn a lot of propane. That problem is overcome with catalytic heaters which are not expensive and easily pay for themselves because of how much propane they save whenever heating is needed (including summer months).
I know you want to stand by your original statement (except for the part about not being able to buy enough propane to keep it heated in extreme cold), but my experience, and the experiences of many others, just does not match with your opinion. My rig, just as it came from the factory, does very well down to about 20 degrees whether dry camping or with hookups. To me that says it is made for more than just warm- and mild-weather use. If I have electricity, I need to tweak things just a little to handle extreme cold. If I don't have electricity, then its more than just a tweak, but its certainly not a major overhaul either.
Btw, the new Everests are advertised as being certified to hold up perfectly in temps down to zero degrees. That means they put the rig in a building at a constant zero degree temp for I believe 24 hours. Under those conditions, nothing freezes, everything works, and the furnace is able to keep the inside 72 degrees throughout the test. Also, they measure propane consumption and, believe it or not, it is not excessive. Now I know the older rigs that the OP is looking at probably won't pass such a test, but this does point out something that I believe is very much true. Over the years, many RVs have gotten better and better at handling cold and extremely cold temps without modifications. I expect this trend to continue.
Hello. I am very thankful for all your posts here. All of them were important, but I would especially thank bearsnob for all the recommendations he made concerning "extremely" cold camping. I did not think this was such a though question, because many Swiss take their TT up to the Alps during wintertime to go skiing. Of course, with electrical hookup. I should have been much more precise about my plans. I will start my full time RVing this fall. During winter 2008/2009 I will mostly stay in southern regions and travel up north with spring. I will try to stay within the temperature range of 20-70 F, because that’s what I and my dog like the best. Lower is better, then higher. As I have a job in Canada over the winter 2009/2010 (Olympics), which is still very far away yet, I thought continuing living in my fifth during that period is what I want. Either I am able to do all the modifications till then, or I simply take the apartment offered (prefer my RV however). There is lots of time till then to talk to other RVers about possible modifications and experience. (Thanks so much bearsnob for all your efforts so far). In the meantime I have been doing research on FW recommended in this thread. Arctic Fox is just not in my price range. I have come to the conclusion, that a Keystone Cougar, or Laredo suits my needs best. I love the floor plans and quality for the price asked. I would be even able to buy a new one, if I choose a last year model. Bill, Richard. You both have Keystones. How happy are you with them? What does the Polar package include (do not worry, I do not intend to stay at the nothpole ;o))? What is the difference between Western- and East coast models? Thank you.
"I did not think this was such a though question, because many Swiss take their TT up to the Alps during wintertime to go skiing."
I checked back and I guess it was in another thread where I mentioned my friend in Italy's Class C. evidently in Europe you folks build them better for cold weather use. His forward bunk had heat ducts surrounding it with various heat outlets at the sides. additionally, his cabinets were set out about an inch from the walls with air spaces behind them for air circulation. evidently they are much better designed for cold weather use.
bumpy
Swiss if you can stay in the Vancouver area in your trailer you will be ok. It rarely goes to freezing. Vancouver island is warm too. Most other places you will want an apartment. It just gets to cold. If you know the area, you can look up the average temps for the area, but do take the time to look at lows. Good luck, sounds like you have a great adventure ahead of you.
1998 Dodge 3500 dually turbo.
1999 Nu Wa Snowbird Legend 31 + 2 RLTGBW
1998 12' Porta-Bote with 5HP Nissan and Electric motors
2 X Honda 2000EU
Years and years of experience to gain!!!
I did some fast research comparing new Cougar, new Laredo, used Arctic Fox. I think you said you were looking for about a 28" rig and you said you would be mostly boondocking. Taking all that into account, I think you should think about as used arctic fox. These 2004 models, 28-29 feet long, seem to be in your price range: M-27-5L, M-28-5D. Both have NADA low retail values of just over $17,000. That's a good estimate of what you should pay a private seller. I also went onto RVtrader & RVhunter to see how similar rigs were listed. The asking prices were much higher, but these were mostly dealer sales. Perhaps that's how you concluded that the arctic fox was out of your price range. If I were going to be in your situation, I think I would take a serious look at used arctic fox FWs. They've always been considered four season rigs and they are probably better constructed and higher end than the Cougar and the Laredo. That said, in many ways, new Cougars and Laredos are approaching the amenities of the '04 arctic foxes. Keystone tries to give you a lot for your money. That is their marketing strategy. Insulation is an inexpensive addition and so keystone has been increasing R-values in their rigs over the years. I'm not sure what the R-values were in the '04 arctic foxes, but my guess would be that they were about the same as the '08 Cougars and Laredos. But I think you'll find that Arctic Fox has better overall construction than both Keystone models. Also, there are probably quite a few subtle differences that would make the older arctic fox win out in terms of cold weather livability. I think most arctic foxes are well made. Keystones are kind of hit and miss. There are probably more keystones that roll off the assembly line with a lot of problems when compared to the arctic fox. Please keep in mind that I'm saying this having never owned an arctic fox. I've just read a lot of posts about them over the years.
So I'd suggest looking at all three. Decide which models you are interested in. Then find the online user groups for each of them and ask lots of questions of people who own those brands and models. From what I can see, all three can be adapted to cold weather camping. But I'll bet the older arctic fox will be more easily adapted. The cougar and laredo are pretty much three season rigs. I've seen a lot more cougars on the road and I've seen cougars up in Montana boondocking in late Fall when nighttime temps often get down into the teens. Of course, I don't know if they were running water, but as long as they were using their furnace for heat, they probably could have had the water going.
* This post was
edited 04/01/08 02:14am by bearsnob *
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