Don Don and Dan, lets see about these "non experts". So here is the question. Do you believe the discussion should focus primarily on driveline losses - meaning not about braking losses or hill climbing losses?
Assuming this is the case, lets address that specific issue. Is it your belief that hybrid technology seeks to greatly reduce driveling inefficiencies? I'm assuming your answer would be yes. So lets not dispute that, lets assume that this is true - and that me being a non-owner is not qualified to argue that. OK.
Now what us non experts can do is put this into perspective. For a car that is lightweight, driveline losses as a percentage of the total are significant. As the weight goes up, other losses become much more significant. The driveline losses do not increase at the same rate as other losses. That is why when you look at MPG ratio to weight, an RV does tons better than any car, even hybrid cars.
The point is that even if you assume that there are losses that can be reduced by hybrid technology, what we do know is that driveline losses as a percentage of the total requirement get smaller as the weight and size goes up. Since you are starting with a much smaller piece of the pie, any driveline efficiency improvement is much less as a percentage of the total requirement.
Buses are similiar to motorhomes. Transit buses typically cost about $350,000, but the hybrid versions of the same basic bus cost $550,000. Fuel savings is 22%. Even in transit service these buses will never save enough fuel to come close to paying for the hybrid system. The big win the transit authority is promoting is less emissions.
Based on this I figure a $150,000 diesel pusher might cost $75,000 extra if it was a hybrid and fuel savings would be nowhere near 22%. If you drove around the world a few times all on city streets you might recoup your investment.
I have a Jetta sedan, diesel 5 speed manual. I use it for a toad and daily driver. It consistently gets 45+ mpg in local driving in congested Florida. It's never had a mechanical problem and they hold their value well. It is a great little car to drive. I'm 6'-4" and do not put the seat all the way back, so has plenty of room. Fit and finish is above average. I don't know what kind of mileage it would get on a trip as I have never done it. I would guess around 50 mpg. I can't see getting a hybrid unless diesel fuel gets completely out of sight.
Marvin Hammer
2007 Allegro Bus QSP
06 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel
Love my Prius. Have had it for a little over three years and have 75,000 miles of care free fuel efficient driving. Average about 45 city/hwy combined without taking any precautioned to improve fuel efficiency. If I drive carefully I can boost it by about 5mph combined. I have driven to get the best mileage. Drove 210 miles of normal highway but never over 55mph and remained in electric mode as much as possible. Arrived about 20 minutes later than normal and got 78 mpg. In winter the heater runs off gas engine so reduces mileage so it is best to heat and then turn it off. In summer the air impacts the power just a little but no impact on mileage as runs off electric. Winter driving is easy and traction is good. I tow on dolly without problem. The misinfo being passed around is fascinating and I get it forwarded to me by friends all the time. Daughter has one in California and loves it. I do love the silent operation and general comfort and handling and truly enjoy the fact that even with $3.40 a gallon gas I am operating on prices of 25 years ago and when adjusted for inflation the cheapest per mile operating expense I have ever known. You are correct the synergy drive is quite incredible. Now in Europe you have a switch so you can operate on all electric and then use gas to recharge when necessary and coming soon a plug-in option. It is nor available here because of our regs regarding battery warranty. If the American auto makers would spend half the time they do starting rumors on the Prius and instead develop true energy efficiency instead of these little improvements they dare call hybrids they would be competing better. When my second car is ready for junk heap and won't be for a long time as we drive the Prius all the time and second sits I will replace it with a second Prius. As long as I have the Prius I can afford to fuel my E-450.
Daveinet wrote: Don Don and Dan, lets see about these "non experts". So here is the question. Do you believe the discussion should focus primarily on driveline losses - meaning not about braking losses or hill climbing losses?
Assuming this is the case, lets address that specific issue. Is it your belief that hybrid technology seeks to greatly reduce driveling inefficiencies? I'm assuming your answer would be yes. So lets not dispute that, lets assume that this is true - and that me being a non-owner is not qualified to argue that. OK.
Now what us non experts can do is put this into perspective. For a car that is lightweight, driveline losses as a percentage of the total are significant. As the weight goes up, other losses become much more significant. The driveline losses do not increase at the same rate as other losses. That is why when you look at MPG ratio to weight, an RV does tons better than any car, even hybrid cars.
The point is that even if you assume that there are losses that can be reduced by hybrid technology, what we do know is that driveline losses as a percentage of the total requirement get smaller as the weight and size goes up. Since you are starting with a much smaller piece of the pie, any driveline efficiency improvement is much less as a percentage of the total requirement.
What did he say? I do know this. I buy gas 2 times a month now and get 22 gallons total vs 5 times a month and 45 gallons a month.
Goldencrazy wrote: Love my Prius. Have had it for a little over three years and have 75,000 miles of care free fuel efficient driving. Average about 45 city/hwy combined without taking any precautioned to improve fuel efficiency. If I drive carefully I can boost it by about 5mph combined. I have driven to get the best mileage. Drove 210 miles of normal highway but never over 55mph and remained in electric mode as much as possible. Arrived about 20 minutes later than normal and got 78 mpg. In winter the heater runs off gas engine so reduces mileage so it is best to heat and then turn it off. In summer the air impacts the power just a little but no impact on mileage as runs off electric. Winter driving is easy and traction is good. I tow on dolly without problem. The misinfo being passed around is fascinating and I get it forwarded to me by friends all the time. Daughter has one in California and loves it. I do love the silent operation and general comfort and handling and truly enjoy the fact that even with $3.40 a gallon gas I am operating on prices of 25 years ago and when adjusted for inflation the cheapest per mile operating expense I have ever known. You are correct the synergy drive is quite incredible. Now in Europe you have a switch so you can operate on all electric and then use gas to recharge when necessary and coming soon a plug-in option. It is nor available here because of our regs regarding battery warranty. If the American auto makers would spend half the time they do starting rumors on the Prius and instead develop true energy efficiency instead of these little improvements they dare call hybrids they would be competing better. When my second car is ready for junk heap and won't be for a long time as we drive the Prius all the time and second sits I will replace it with a second Prius. As long as I have the Prius I can afford to fuel my E-450.
Its not all mis information. If you drive a lot of city miles Hybrids can make sense to purchase. If you drive a lot of highway miles then no, normally the purchase doesn't make sense financially.
When you consider the hefty MSRP premium you are paying, not too mention zero discount in some cases the total cost doesn't never justifies things.
Example:
Pirus cost: 21,984
Corolla cost: 15,915
Both base models taken from carsdirect.com. Final pricing. No tax.
Difference 6,069. Assume you get the tax credit which is not always the case -3100. $2969 higher cost.
Lets start the math.
Corolla ends up with $2969 in free gas. We'll use $4/gal as the price of fuel. So we have 742 gallons of fuel for free which the Pirus has to pay for. This translates to 742*35 = 25,970 free highway miles.
Pirus cost for 100k highway miles
100,000 / 45 mpg = 2,222 gallons @ $4 = 8,888
Corolla cost for 100k highway miles
100,000 - 28,970 (free miles + 3k miles for the extra sales tax difference) = 71,030 / 35 mpg = 2029 gallons @ 4 = 8,116.
So essentially on the highway the Pirus is just not even breaking even with the Corolla @ 100k miles. This is including the hefty tax credit many people are not even able to get once they run out. So without the tax credit the deal is terrible. With it, if you drive mostly highway miles you probably aren't seeing any meaningful savings.
Even when you include 20% city driving which would be on the high side for us but whatever the numbers look like:
$2969 free gas plus the $350 in extra sales tax so total $3,319
Corolla city MPG is 26 MPG or around 21k free city miles
Highway miles 35 MPG 79k miles = $9,028
Pirus 48 MPG city 21k miles = 1,750
Prius 45 MPG Hwy 79k Miles = 7,022
Total cost: $8772
Difference: Pirus saves $256 over 100k miles.
We did the math because we looked at the hybrids. Sure if you live in a big metropolis area with lots of stop and go the Hybrids are the way for you. But for the vast majority of this country that live in more wide open areas / states like Florida the extra money you are paying really isn't saving you very much at all.
This includes the hefty tax credit which not everyone gets and the listed MPG for each vehicle.
They are all tested the same, the MPG listed are done in a controlled environment which is far more accurate than any yahoo here claiming 70+ MPG while driving down hill in a mountain. Same junk we see when people feel better about themselves when they say their 45 FT DP gets 9.5 MPG fully loaded.
Some people like to feel good about their purchase, some people have to justify what they bought or their wee wee shrinks a little. Just do the math for yourself and see if it makes sense. Obviously the more city miles you drive the more it makes sense.
Considering Motor homes by their nature do not drive in the city very much why on earth would you want to try and make one a Hybrid? They can't even build a 2k LBS pound hybrid that makes sense with mostly highway miles much less a 30k LBS one.
Goldencrazy wrote: Love my Prius. Have had it for a little over three years and have 75,000 miles of care free fuel efficient driving. Average about 45 city/hwy combined without taking any precautioned to improve fuel efficiency. If I drive carefully I can boost it by about 5mph combined. I have driven to get the best mileage. Drove 210 miles of normal highway but never over 55mph and remained in electric mode as much as possible. Arrived about 20 minutes later than normal and got 78 mpg. In winter the heater runs off gas engine so reduces mileage so it is best to heat and then turn it off. In summer the air impacts the power just a little but no impact on mileage as runs off electric. Winter driving is easy and traction is good. I tow on dolly without problem. The misinfo being passed around is fascinating and I get it forwarded to me by friends all the time. Daughter has one in California and loves it. I do love the silent operation and general comfort and handling and truly enjoy the fact that even with $3.40 a gallon gas I am operating on prices of 25 years ago and when adjusted for inflation the cheapest per mile operating expense I have ever known. You are correct the synergy drive is quite incredible. Now in Europe you have a switch so you can operate on all electric and then use gas to recharge when necessary and coming soon a plug-in option. It is nor available here because of our regs regarding battery warranty. If the American auto makers would spend half the time they do starting rumors on the Prius and instead develop true energy efficiency instead of these little improvements they dare call hybrids they would be competing better. When my second car is ready for junk heap and won't be for a long time as we drive the Prius all the time and second sits I will replace it with a second Prius. As long as I have the Prius I can afford to fuel my E-450.
Its not all mis information. If you drive a lot of city miles Hybrids can make sense to purchase. If you drive a lot of highway miles then no, normally the purchase doesn't make sense financially.
When you consider the hefty MSRP premium you are paying, not too mention zero discount in some cases the total cost doesn't never justifies things.
Example:
Pirus cost: 21,984
Corolla cost: 15,915
Both base models taken from carsdirect.com. Final pricing. No tax.
Difference 6,069. Assume you get the tax credit which is not always the case -3100. $2969 higher cost.
Lets start the math.
Corolla ends up with $2969 in free gas. We'll use $4/gal as the price of fuel. So we have 742 gallons of fuel for free which the Pirus has to pay for. This translates to 742*35 = 25,970 free highway miles.
Pirus cost for 100k highway miles
100,000 / 45 mpg = 2,222 gallons @ $4 = 8,888
Corolla cost for 100k highway miles
100,000 - 28,970 (free miles + 3k miles for the extra sales tax difference) = 71,030 / 35 mpg = 2029 gallons @ 4 = 8,116.
So essentially on the highway the Pirus is just not even breaking even with the Corolla @ 100k miles. This is including the hefty tax credit many people are not even able to get once they run out. So without the tax credit the deal is terrible. With it, if you drive mostly highway miles you probably aren't seeing any meaningful savings.
Even when you include 20% city driving which would be on the high side for us but whatever the numbers look like:
$2969 free gas plus the $350 in extra sales tax so total $3,319
Corolla city MPG is 26 MPG or around 21k free city miles
Highway miles 35 MPG 79k miles = $9,028
Pirus 48 MPG city 21k miles = 1,750
Prius 45 MPG Hwy 79k Miles = 7,022
Total cost: $8772
Difference: Pirus saves $256 over 100k miles.
We did the math because we looked at the hybrids. Sure if you live in a big metropolis area with lots of stop and go the Hybrids are the way for you. But for the vast majority of this country that live in more wide open areas / states like Florida the extra money you are paying really isn't saving you very much at all.
This includes the hefty tax credit which not everyone gets and the listed MPG for each vehicle.
They are all tested the same, the MPG listed are done in a controlled environment which is far more accurate than any yahoo here claiming 70+ MPG while driving down hill in a mountain. Same junk we see when people feel better about themselves when they say their 45 FT DP gets 9.5 MPG fully loaded.
Some people like to feel good about their purchase, some people have to justify what they bought or their wee wee shrinks a little. Just do the math for yourself and see if it makes sense. Obviously the more city miles you drive the more it makes sense.
Considering Motor homes by their nature do not drive in the city very much why on earth would you want to try and make one a Hybrid? They can't even build a 2k LBS pound hybrid that makes sense with mostly highway miles much less a 30k LBS one.
if your going to look at it that way then compare a Kia to a Hummer.
Does that make since?
You get way more car with a standard Prius than a standard Corolla.
You can't compare like that, it make no sense. If that's the case we all need to go find the cheapest used old car we can find.
We own a Prius Hybrid and get between 45 and 48 mpg with highway driving 85% of the time. Also got a $3000.00 rebate from Uncle Sam when we bought it so I figure that cut the premium in half. Will make up the other part of premium when we sell it due to very high resale on this car. Do not know anything about GM hybrids but Toyota is terrific.
If the Truck guys wanted to they could develop a much more fuel efficient engine but you would probably have to give up lots of torque and not be happy with overall performance.
We are just cutting back on mileage and easing up on the speed to offset some of the increased cost. It is not much worse today than it was back in Early 70's if you consider inflation. Also talked to a guy from Europe recently who has been paying over $5.00/Gal for a long time.
Dave & Mary Anne
2006 Mountain Aire 43 ft
400cummins
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
Brake Buddy
Brittany Named Cassie
Let's see, you are a Lazy American if you choose an Automatic transmission and a Yahoo if you claim high mileage from your hybrid.
If you were walking instead of driving then you could call us Lazy Americans. Also calling someone a Yahoo makes one ignore the rest of what you had to say.
Its not all mis information. If you drive a lot of city miles Hybrids can make sense to purchase. If you drive a lot of highway miles then no, normally the purchase doesn't make sense financially.
When you consider the hefty MSRP premium you are paying, not too mention zero discount in some cases the total cost doesn't never justifies things.
Example:
Pirus cost: 21,984
Corolla cost: 15,915
Both base models taken from carsdirect.com. Final pricing. No tax.
Difference 6,069. Assume you get the tax credit which is not always the case -3100. $2969 higher cost.
Lets start the math.
Corolla ends up with $2969 in free gas. We'll use $4/gal as the price of fuel. So we have 742 gallons of fuel for free which the Pirus has to pay for. This translates to 742*35 = 25,970 free highway miles.
Pirus cost for 100k highway miles
100,000 / 45 mpg = 2,222 gallons @ $4 = 8,888
Corolla cost for 100k highway miles
100,000 - 28,970 (free miles + 3k miles for the extra sales tax difference) = 71,030 / 35 mpg = 2029 gallons @ 4 = 8,116.
So essentially on the highway the Pirus is just not even breaking even with the Corolla @ 100k miles. This is including the hefty tax credit many people are not even able to get once they run out. So without the tax credit the deal is terrible. With it, if you drive mostly highway miles you probably aren't seeing any meaningful savings.
Even when you include 20% city driving which would be on the high side for us but whatever the numbers look like:
$2969 free gas plus the $350 in extra sales tax so total $3,319
Corolla city MPG is 26 MPG or around 21k free city miles
Highway miles 35 MPG 79k miles = $9,028
Pirus 48 MPG city 21k miles = 1,750
Prius 45 MPG Hwy 79k Miles = 7,022
Total cost: $8772
Difference: Pirus saves $256 over 100k miles.
We did the math because we looked at the hybrids. Sure if you live in a big metropolis area with lots of stop and go the Hybrids are the way for you. But for the vast majority of this country that live in more wide open areas / states like Florida the extra money you are paying really isn't saving you very much at all.
This includes the hefty tax credit which not everyone gets and the listed MPG for each vehicle.
They are all tested the same, the MPG listed are done in a controlled environment which is far more accurate than any yahoo here claiming 70+ MPG while driving down hill in a mountain. Same junk we see when people feel better about themselves when they say their 45 FT DP gets 9.5 MPG fully loaded.
Some people like to feel good about their purchase, some people have to justify what they bought or their wee wee shrinks a little. Just do the math for yourself and see if it makes sense. Obviously the more city miles you drive the more it makes sense.
Considering Motor homes by their nature do not drive in the city very much why on earth would you want to try and make one a Hybrid? They can't even build a 2k LBS pound hybrid that makes sense with mostly highway miles much less a 30k LBS one.
Careful, you're applying logic to a subject that some people get very emotional about.
As far as a Corolla not being simiular to a Prius, consider the following from Edmunds.com:
Model------------2009 Corolla------------2008 Prius
Wgt., lbs----------2767---------------------2932
Front Head room----38.8---------------------39.1
Front Shoulder-----54.6---------------------55.0
Front Leg----------41.7---------------------41.9
Towing-------------1500 lbs-----------------No Towing
The only big difference is the weight------------and batteries, electric generators and electric motors do weigh something.
Mark
2000 Itasca Suncruiser 35U on a Ford chassis
2003 Ford Explorer toad with US Gear brakes,
ReadyBrute tow bar, and Demco base plate.
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