You're missing my point. The Luv, Nova, Navajo and Courier all flamed out fast and were never heard from again or the vehicles were redesigned as manufacturer specific replacments like the Ranger and S10. If that is your interpretation of success you have a very low level to meet. FWIW I'm not sure Mazda is selling B series still. If they are they are making money only by it being uch an old platform it costs nothing to build. Same with Ranger. It sels because it is so cheap it makes money and sells cheap. This whole Titan/Ram deal is being marketed by Nissan as giving buyers what they want and some other nonsense. Go read some threads on a Titan board. This is very much NOT what current owners want. They bought as a progression from Frontiers or by name recognition. They don't want a Titan so they can get a Hemi, they want the 5.6L. This isn't like Nissan is getting help from Dodge or sharing technology, they are getting a Ram's roof, doors and a rolling chassis with Dodge powerplants. IMHO the better route would have been to have Dodge help with the Titan's percieved weak spots like the rear axle from Dana or dip into Dodges research on hybrid application in pickups or a joint diesel evnture with Cummins.
To be honest I don't know what Dodge is doing. Apparently they are also supposed to be building Chysler minivans for VW to sell as VW's too. I have aso yet to see what their new products will be either. Has anyone seen a concept Charger update? I do know they are carving up their model line by eliminating slow sellers like the Sebring coupe, Durango, Magnum and so on. The Nitro is a dud and the Calibur has not set the world on fire either. It certainly looks like they are heading somewhere other than revamping to be stronger with all the sharing going on. There is a whole lot of fat to trim in their line ups, Especially when you look at Jeep.
Keith99RS wrote: You're missing my point. The Luv, Nova, Navajo and Courier all flamed out fast and were never heard from again or the vehicles were redesigned as manufacturer specific replacments like the Ranger and S10. If that is your interpretation of success you have a very low level to meet.
It's not my definition of "success" that they have to meet. It's to give dealers something to sell in a hot segment, without having to incur the cost of developing something themselves. And it helps the MFR of the original platform keep the plant running.
Sales of the Navajo were poor, but they made money for the shareholders and the dealers, and that's what it's all about. It gave the dealers an SUV to sell, in a segment that Mazda didn't have a vehilce to offer. Remeber, the Explorer was HOT HOT HOT back then, and the SUV segment was booming. Dealers screamed for product to sell, and they got the Navajo.
The Ford Courier was made for 10 years by Mazda, with 2 generations, and was absolutely a success. It gave Ford a compact truck to sell, a segment that no domestic thought would be hot. And it expanded Mazda (Toyo Kogyo) production to a level that they didn't anticipate.
The Chevy Luv was also produced for 10 years and also was considered a success. Much the same reasons and benefits as the Courier, only GM and Isuzu were the partners. Did anyone know who Isuzu was back then? Nope, but Isuzu was selling a lot of vehicles here...badged as Chevys.
In either case above, I don't think a 10 year, profitable run can be considered flaming out fast. Not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think your point is valid because these vehicle weren't seen as failures.
The Nova (assuming you're talking aboutt the one produced with Toyota) was produced by NUUMI and helped Chevrolet meet CAFE requirements...CAFE is a big deal for automakers. It kept the lines at NUUMI humming and you can't partner with Toyota on a plant but have everything coming out badged as a Toyota. Sales weren't great but it made GM money. And it gave dealers a small car to sell...dealers want to have a full line of cars to offer.
That's why the Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix are sisters that are in their second generation, coming off the NUUMI line. They make money and keep the plant humming.
Keith99RS wrote: This is very much NOT what current owners want. They bought as a progression from Frontiers or by name recognition. They don't want a Titan so they can get a Hemi, they want the 5.6L. This isn't like Nissan is getting help from Dodge or sharing technology, they are getting a Ram's roof, doors and a rolling chassis with Dodge powerplants. IMHO the better route would have been to have Dodge help with the Titan's percieved weak spots like the rear axle from Dana or dip into Dodges research on hybrid application in pickups or a joint diesel evnture with Cummins.
You are so right about that...Titan intenders DON'T want this to happen. But Nissan had a hard time finding those Titan intenders/buyers. The Titan is a sales failure for Nissan, and they can't justify developing a second generation model based on the sales volume. But at lower volumes, they can make money - and have an all-important model in a profitable segment - by partnering with Chrysler to share development costs.
Nissan dealers want a full lineup of vehicles to sell, and this gives them a way to do just that.
Plus, there's a give-take going on, because Chrysler will be selling a rebadged Nissan small car at the same time.
Keith99RS wrote:
To be honest I don't know what Dodge is doing. Apparently they are also supposed to be building Chyrsler minivans for VW to sell as VW's too.
Cerberus/Chrysler is doing everything they can to keep the plants humming. It's really that simple. Chrysler sales significantly down, they have the highest incentives by far of any automaker, and unless they can generate cash they are going to sink into the abyss.
(Keith I hope you don't take any of this as a personal attack...I work in the auto industry and love to talk shop )
Dodge, Nissan, Ford and Mazda are not the only ones doing it now. GM is, and has been doing it for several decades all throughout their conglomerate of brands, even including outside brands like GEO. Honda does it in-house with Acura, Toyota does it in-house with Lexus, Nissan does it with Infinity and Toyota and Nissan both do it out of house as well. The auto companies do this world-wide too, swapping new names and faces on the same vehicles to sell in various countries all over. I don't see what the arguement is. This business practice has been, is and will continue to go on so long as cars are still being made and there is more than one company name selling cars, somewhere in the world. The practice is not limited to auto manufacturers either. Suzuki and Kawasaki do it with atv's and motorcycles, probly pwc's too and who knows what else. If you look around I'm sure you'll find a plethora of other examples of the same in all sorts of markets both here and worldwide.
Pronstar, I don't take what you said as a personal attack in anyway. Just good discussion.
However Ford gave Mazda the 2 door Explorer only, note the least selling. I don't think Mazda was rolling in money over that decision. The Explorer remain hot for a loooong time and Mazda never replaced their version with anything.
The Titan sales thing is a bit of a touchy subject. Primarily because it compared to the Big 3 and Toyota who sell far more vehicles than Nissan. I have said it a bunch of times now. Nissan sells just about 1 million total vehicles a year. Top 3 sellers being the Altima, Sentra and Murano. The Titan falls in line as their 5th best seller. In other words GM and Ford sell almost as many trucks alone as Nissan does total vehicles. The Armada soldiers on as a pure Nissan product even though it is dead last in sales by a large margin. Guess what shares most of the Titan's components and platform? The Armada. The Titans platform is also shared by the Pathfinder, Frontier and X Terra as well. The development costs have been paid for and then some. The 5.6L is also slated to still be produced for the Armada, Infinity version and the Pathfinder and is supposed to be tweaked for use in an upcoming HD pickup. Reading between the lines, how much better does Nissan think they will do? Ho many more Ram/Titans do they think they'll sell? I'll go out on a limb and say far fewer as they have p.o.'d many of their previous owners (around 350,000 or so) with this decision. This isn't filling a niche. They did that with the Titan. They had a nice product in place. It reeks of bean counters. Chrysler does make out well as they have no ultra compact even close tho the market currently a nd their version of the Versa will be a plus for their line up.
Ford dealers wouldn't let FoMoCo give Mazda dealers a 4-door Explorer/Navajo...remember, the Explorer was their bread-and-butter during that time. They would have revolted if Ford had given Mazda the 4-door.
Mazda couldn't afford to develop an entry on their own, so they took the 2-door model. But Mazda dealers absolutely wanted a 4-door Explorer-based SUV. They basically took what they could get. The 2-door Explorer wasn't a huge seller in the grand scheme of things, so the dealers didn't really care.
The current Titan is a mixed bag. Dealers had been screaming for a full-size truck, and they trumped the Tundra to market (previous Tundras were more of a 7/8th truck than the current model). It's a good truck IMHO, really nice engine, too.
But the plant they built (Nissan invested over $1 billion), and their business model and sales projections, called for at least 100,000 sales per year. But Titan sales have only been averaging around 60,000 units.
Obviously, this is still a large number of trucks, and dealers needs something in that segment. But with sales running so far below expectations, a declining full-size truck market, and looming CAFE regs that kick-in starting in 2011, Nissan couldn't justify the expense of designing a new truck. It was far cheaper to partner with an ailing company (Chrysler), who, by the way, needs cash BADLY and has excess capacity to boot.
CAFE is a really big thing, and Nissan calls the Titan a "CAFE Casualty" for just this reason.
Plus when the head of the company (Carlos Ghosn) is affectionately called "Le Cost Cutter" (or Le Cost Killer), things that don't meet ROI targets are killed, and rather quickly.
The auto industry, some companies more than others, absolutely reek of bean counters. IMHO that's what got the domestics into trouble over the last few decades.
What I can't understand is why some people around here are so quick to dismiss the all new 2009 Dodge 1/2 ton when they have only seen pictures of the thing. It could very possibly be the best 1/2 ton on the market when it comes out, and should easily trump the current Titan. The Hemi is also going to be putting out 380 horses and over 400 lbft of torque.
The only thing that Dodge could learn from the Titan is perhaps the automatic transmission. The Dodge 545RFE is extremely reliable, but it doesn't have the best ratios at times. Perhaps Nissan will help them out in that department.
But the Nissan loyalists are having a tough time dealing with the loss of the all Nissan Titan. And will grasp at whatever straws they feel necessary to explain why they think this is a bad idea.
It makes no difference to me as I am not planning to be in the market for another truck until 2011, and a Nissan Titan wouldn't be on my short list of trucks to buy anyway.
2005 Surveyor SV-291 Tows smooth as silk!
1995 Dodge Ram 1500 Laramie SLT 4x4 5.9L V8 low miles, It ain't pretty, but it's paid for!
surveyorjp wrote: What I can't understand is why some people around here are so quick to dismiss the all new 2009 Dodge 1/2 ton when they have only seen pictures of the thing. It could very possibly be the best 1/2 ton on the market when it comes out, and should easily trump the current Titan. The Hemi is also going to be putting out 380 horses and over 400 lbft of torque.
The only thing that Dodge could learn from the Titan is perhaps the automatic transmission. The Dodge 545RFE is extremely reliable, but it doesn't have the best ratios at times. Perhaps Nissan will help them out in that department.
But the Nissan loyalists are having a tough time dealing with the loss of the all Nissan Titan. And will grasp at whatever straws they feel necessary to explain why they think this is a bad idea.
It makes no difference to me as I am not planning to be in the market for another truck until 2011, and a Nissan Titan wouldn't be on my short list of trucks to buy anyway.
This is a very good post. It's all true. The new Ram might kick some serious 1/2 ton tail. (it is possible)
I am not a "Nissan Loyalist"...this is only my 3rd Nissan (of 33 vehicles owned). But you better believe I love my engine and transmission. Almost every single person who has ridden in my Armada has commented on the power. I have literally heard things like, "this thing is WAY faster than my truck", and "I had no idea this thing can move like that". But, if you owned one (Titan/Armada), you'd also question the elimination of a good thing..........even if it is getting replaced by another 'possible' good thing.
I also don't care too much about it as I will keep my Armada for years to come. Hell, maybe the 5.6 V8 will come day be a coveted engine! It'll be America's RB26DETT
-2006 Nissan Armada LE 4x4
-2007 Coachmen 19FLB SE
-2007 Regal 1900 w/ 4.3 EFI Volvo
Supercharged wrote: 4-in-a-fiver and my statments make the same amount of since.
Well said Euro. FWIW this is my first Nissan. What interested me in it was friends with Altimas and Maximas. The power of the 3.5L V6 was so nice.
The 5.6L is a heck of a motor and is another area here Nissan trumped Dodge. The Hemi gets a lot of hype but the 5.6L is a damn fine motor. Honestly IMHO ditching it was a mistake. It has a lot of potential.
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