I think that perhaps loading, hauling & unloading over 80,000 head of stock over 500,000 miles qualifies me as an expert in this feild.
At least more quaified than someone that "is around horse people on a regular basis" & has owned as many as 3 horses @ a time.
Well maybe and then again maybe not.
PowerWagon896 wrote:
And yes hardly any of them had the insight to see that the "heavy tow vehicle" was nothing more than a band aid for poorly selected & applied equipment. Few if any of them had a clue as to what a load distributor hitch actually did so of course they went for the bigger is better solution. If they had anywhere near as much experience as you give them credit for, they would have realized that putting most of the trailer weight on the rear suspension, no matter how "heavy duty" will be much more unstable than having more of that weight over the steering axle. That is why 5th wheel trailers are so affective, but I hardly think 7000# is in the 5th wheel realm of neccessity.
Since you are such a self-proclaimed expert, where do you think all the weight from a 5th wheel pin goes? Hint: it is sitting directly over the rear axle. You may want to rethink this if your ego allows you do such a thing.
Jim
2003 Dodge Ram 2500, 4x4, Quad Cab, Cummins HO, 48RE trans, 3.73 ratio
2006 Rampage 327 Toy Hauler
Tekonsha Prodigy
Phoenix, Arizona
What seems funny is this thread seems to mainly address (How Fast Can I Get There) and when ever specs are brought up... it is answered by (thats only on Paper) which seems to leave a ton of guessing involved..
My set up says I can pull 7100 lbs trailering on Paper.. So How much can I really pull...
Say I pull 10,000 lbs a few times. Then am I qualified to suggest to others they can do the same?
And tell the nay sayers they have chips on their shoulders...
People will always push the edge.. that is how we all got these cool rides in the first place.
* This post was
edited 05/12/08 12:10pm by Caddywhompus *
'04 Ford Freestar (Primary tow vehicle) '05 Subaru Forester (Backup tow vehicle) '65 Bethany popup (best popups ever made!) Looking for a tow vehicle Minivan towing
mecreature wrote: My set up says I can pull 7100 lbs trailering on Paper.. So How much can I really pull...
Nobody is advocating that everyone just plain ignore all the specs and do whatever they want. What I am saying is that people misunderstand the intention of the term "tow rating". It is not called "Tow Limit" for a reason. It is a rating, nothing more. The consumer should recognize the rating for what it is, and if they decided to do something else with the equipment, they aren't breaking any laws, they aren't invalidating their insurance, and they aren't necessarily putting everyone on the highway in danger. Sure, they could be, but their are plenty of unsafe rigs on the roads well under "tow rating" as well. It's only one variable out of many that determine the overall viability of a combo.
Case in point, in farm country where I'm from it's pretty common to see a 1/2 ton pickup pulling a haywagon down the road at around 30k pounds GCW. Typically the haywagon is loaded 20 high and overhanging the sides of the cart. The pickup is usually also loaded as high, and the ingenious farmers know how to stack the hay to overhang the bed rails and double the volume they carry. Sometimes you even see it piled on the cab as well. To make matters worse, the 4-wheel wagons are generally swerving all over the road because the front axles are always loose and bouncing from tie-rod to tie-rod. Needless to say these trucks are grossly over-loaded on BOTH payload and GCW. Yet they have been doing this for years, and to my knowledge there has never been a serious incident. Why? Because they are driving 15mph down the shoulder of the road. They have spotters driving behind them, and sometimes guys riding on the wagon keeping an eye on the stack. In this case exceeding the tow rating is moot because the other factors mitigate it. Isn't it conceivable that various other factors can be present in EVERY combo? Wind resistance? Mountain driving? Hitch setup? Brake controller...etc.?
I will also point out that when it comes to OEM tow ratings, pickup trucks and SUVs are NOT among the vehicles that are under-rated. This market segment is highly-competitive and the car makers all know that tow rating is a key purchase factor in a lot of their demographics. Historically, these types of vehicles are OVER rated, a fact supported by the various rules of thumb the community has come up with to determine the true towing ability of such vehicles (ie staying under 80% of your tow rating)
mecreature wrote: Say I pull 10,000 lbs a few times. Then am I qualified to suggest to others they can do the same?
If you were happy and safe in the outcome, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to share your experiences with others who are curious.
mecreature wrote: And tell the nay sayers they have chips on their shoulders...
This comment is well-earned. It doesn't matter how many times we flush out facts, test data, testimony and even technical-engineering information, the naysayers choose to ignore it all and instead poke fun at the rest of us. The fun-poking I can handle, but I get pretty wound up when the accusations about safety and intelligence start flying, and they always do eventually. Nobody takes safety more serious than I. I own 2 of the safest cars on the road not by accident.
mecreature wrote: People will always push the edge.. that is how we all got these cool rides in the first place.
True, but a better attitude would be to observe and learn from the guys riding on the edges. You might find you are right, and smaller lighter tow vehicles are problematic and unsafe, or you might learn something that you can apply to your own situation in the future. The open-minded individual would learn from the trials and errors of others, not put-down, ridicule and otherwise scoff us.
thanks for taking the time to answer caddy.. And to answer it politely.
I guess I am on the conservative side of things then.
But...you say...
"In this case exceeding the tow rating is moot because the other factors mitigate it. Isn't it conceivable that various other factors can be present in EVERY combo? Wind resistance? Mountain driving? Hitch setup? Brake controller...etc.? "
You have a very interesting take on this. seems the tow rating is a well rounded idea of the total package since no one is stricly driving up a mountian or always in a headwind...
even simpler then the farmer and the hay story.. in which I would just make 2 trips..
When my wife and kids carry the groceries in the house they try to carry everything in at one time.. No matter how much they have. I always say you can make 2 trips.. they laugh and go about their business.. last week we had one dropped jug of milk all over the porch and 3 smashed loaves of bread that I have to eat..
I think that perhaps loading, hauling & unloading over 80,000 head of stock over 500,000 miles qualifies me as an expert in this feild.
At least more quaified than someone that "is around horse people on a regular basis" & has owned as many as 3 horses @ a time.
Well maybe and then again maybe not.
PowerWagon896 wrote:
And yes hardly any of them had the insight to see that the "heavy tow vehicle" was nothing more than a band aid for poorly selected & applied equipment. Few if any of them had a clue as to what a load distributor hitch actually did so of course they went for the bigger is better solution. If they had anywhere near as much experience as you give them credit for, they would have realized that putting most of the trailer weight on the rear suspension, no matter how "heavy duty" will be much more unstable than having more of that weight over the steering axle. That is why 5th wheel trailers are so affective, but I hardly think 7000# is in the 5th wheel realm of neccessity.
Since you are such a self-proclaimed expert, where do you think all the weight from a 5th wheel pin goes? Hint: it is sitting directly over the rear axle. You may want to rethink this if your ego allows you do such a thing.
And by centering that weight over the rear axle, don't you think that the front axle will now also bear more weight compared to a bumper hitch sans WD equipment?
Just as it does on a semi tractor/trailer rig.
It acheives the same thing that a WD hitch does.
Or perhaps a better way to put is that a WD emulates a 5th wheel rig.
And just what did you prove by that post anyway?
Just your lack of understanding of what the physics or trailering & axle loading really are.
And, if you would let your ego deflate a bit you would see that the original rig in question was a 2 horse trailer. I had no use for a 5th wheel rig as it would be inefficient to haul 2 horses in.
Oh, but if I used a 5th wheel rig, then I could have given the horses much more room to move about thereby making for a more unstable rig, thereby requiring the "heavier tow vehicle" etc, etc.
I used to be amused @ horse people that would buy goose neck stock trailers to haul their horses in. The rig would be so unstable due to the lack of confinement of the horses in tow that they would go out & spend thousands of dollar to "upgrade" their tow vehicle because they chose to save a few hudred dollars by buying the improper trailer to begin with.
Not only did they waste money buying more tow vehicle that neccessary, they now threw more of their hard eaned cash driving some gas guzzling hard to manuver beheamoth in their daily errands because they could not afford a deicated TV.
Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime.
The Durango @ 5500# W/the proper equipment did nicely thank you.
I can see where caddywhompus gets the "head in the sand" reference.
Yes, a 5th wheel rig is the most stable rig but it is not needed to achieve safe effecient towwing W/the lighter trailers.
If the commercial trucking industry used the same TV/trailer wieght ratio most of you RVers want to use the trucking industry would cease to exist & the railroads would flourish.
Let's see. people on this forum implied that my 4200# TV was inadequate to tow a 3500# trailer.
So lets "upgrade" (or downgrade might be a better word) to a 6500# TV.
That's a 65%/35% ratio.
OK, now we have an 80,000 tractor trailer rig.
Applying the 65%/35% logic, in order to be "safe" the tractor would need to weigh 52,000# leaving just 28,000# for trailer & payload.
Since we now will be hauling a fraction of the payload weight perhaps an 8,000# trailer would suffice leavinmg 20,000# for payload compared to a very conservative 48,000# or about 42% of the current payload capacity.
THAT would increase the cost of over the road shipment by 240%
Even @ a 50/50 TV/trailer weight ratio, it would be a 160% increase in costs.
Couple either of those scenerios W/rising feul costs & where would we be?
* This post was
last
edited 05/12/08 02:14pm by PowerWagon896 *
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mecreature wrote: When my wife and kids carry the groceries in the house they try to carry everything in at one time.. No matter how much they have. I always say you can make 2 trips.. they laugh and go about their business.. last week we had one dropped jug of milk all over the porch and 3 smashed loaves of bread that I have to eat..
I have the same problem at my house.
Lets take this analogy and apply it to the topic at hand, for fun if nothing else.
I would say that the average person could safely carry two bags of groceries at a time without risk of damaging product. And for the sake of neatness, lets say those bags weigh 15 pounds each, for a total of 30 pounds. Applying this formula to my 13 year old son, that is approximately 50% of his payload capacity of 60 pounds. Everything is safe and under these controlled circumstances all my bread and milk make it into the house.
Now, if i wanted to increase the boys safe working ability without risking my food, there is a few things I could do right and wrong. I could just load him up until his knees were buckling and he would probably make it into the house safely, but there is an increased chance he might blow out a knee or sprain an ankle, or worse smash my bread. I concede that this is the WRONG way to increase his capacity.
But what if i took a more learned approach. What if i sent him to the gym 4 times a week to lift weights and workout. Then after extensive training, we started practicing carrying groceries in ever increasing amounts under controlled circumstances until we had achieved the level of payload we were looking for (I think 50% over original capacity is a good goal, 90 pounds!). Then, to solve the smashed bread problem lets give him a pole to carry across his shoulders that allows him to carry several bags without contact between them. The boy is now ready for the Olympic event "Grocery carrying" and his ability to unload a car is unsurpassed by anyone!
What did we do different between the two scenarios? Well we added strength and increased ability where it made sense. We also added experience (via training) which is a huge benefit. And last, we made some modifications to his hardware (the pole) to address deficiency in his original design.
Now, is it possible to increase the carrying capacity of someone (or something) using our heads, learning from trial and error and making sure to follow safe guidelines all along the way?
I submit it is. Now I have to get home and start the boy on his training. All this discussion has me realizing he isn't pulling his weight (so to speak)!
meanwhile I have to eat balled up french toast.. more like fried motsa balls with syrup..
and with a mid-life crisis coming up... maybe I can get that cool newer muscle car and justify it to the wife by saying look... it can tow our trailer with a few inexpensive mods..
I once drank milk out of a pitcher in the fridge because the gallon got dropped and split open, but sonny boy picked it up when 3/4 of the gallon was still intact. It wasn't so bad until it started picking up all the other "flavors" in the fridge like leftover garlic toast.
And by centering that weight over the rear axle, don't you think that the front axle will now also bear more weight compared to a bumper hitch sans WD equipment?
Just as it does on a semi tractor/trailer rig.
It acheives the same thing that a WD hitch does.
Or perhaps a better way to put is that a WD emulates a 5th wheel rig.
And just what did you prove by that post anyway?
Just your lack of understanding of what the physics or trailering & axle loading really are.
A 5th wheel does not distribute weight at all. Do a search on this forum for people that have posted axle weights from their truck with the trailer hitched and unhitched. The pin weight is on the rear axle. If you would like, when I get home tonight, I can post the CAT scale weights from my setup.
So if the weight distributing hitch emulates a 5th wheel, I wonder why some are paying the huge premium for the Hensley or the Pull-rite? The main advantage of the 5th wheel (for towing) is not weight distribution. It is the pivot point is at the rear axle. The wheel base to overhang ratio that Andy T talks about is 0.
PowerWagon896 wrote:
And, if you would let your ego deflate a bit you would see that the original rig in question was a 2 horse trailer. I had no use for a 5th wheel rig as it would be inefficient to haul 2 horses in.
Oh, but if I used a 5th wheel rig, then I could have given the horses much more room to move about thereby making for a more unstable rig, thereby requiring the "heavier tow vehicle" etc, etc.
I used to be amused @ horse people that would buy goose neck stock trailers to haul their horses in. The rig would be so unstable due to the lack of confinement of the horses in tow that they would go out & spend thousands of dollar to "upgrade" their tow vehicle because they chose to save a few hudred dollars by buying the improper trailer to begin with.
Not only did they waste money buying more tow vehicle that neccessary, they now threw more of their hard eaned cash driving some gas guzzling hard to manuver beheamoth in their daily errands because they could not afford a deicated TV.
Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime.
What are you talking about? To be honest, I have yet to hear somebody complaining about stability problems with a gooseneck. It is so much more difficult for the trailer to induce lateral movements on the TV with the pivot point being at the rear axle. Most horse trainers that I know (we are not talking about cattle ranchers) use slant load trailers. From the ones that I have seen, the interior dimensions are basically the same for bumper pulls and goosenecks. I would call the horse confinement a wash either way.
Besides stability, a huge advantage that a gooseneck trailer gives over a bumper pull is the tack room space. You get way more storage space with a gooseneck. That is the main reason my wife wanted a gooseneck.
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I have the same problem at my house.
