BiGG,one has to take into account all the engery it take to produce a finished product,this is also know as the Total Carbon Footprint of that product.More total energy is used to make ethanol (for now) than one get out of it,so you have a net lost,plus the ethanol has less BTU's in it than gasoline.
As far as the MTBE goes the gasoline producers were forced to use it by law put in place by the "greenie people". I forget which lake in northern California that was poisoned due to MTBE usage.
Just found out there is a fuel "Rant and Raves" stickie in General RV issues.
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edited 05/21/08 09:43am by c.traveler2 *
For the near future (next 25 years???) GM and Ford recently have said that although you will see some diesel engines migrate into cars they are both focusing on smaller gas engines with turbos that get significantly better fuel mileage for car use. They both have said that it is not economically fiesable to put diesel in cars as the fuel mileage gained will not be significant compared to the new eco friendly gas engines in our near future. They both say that diesels are they way to go in trucks as the benifit of diesel in bigger vehicles is much greater.
Just read in a Chevron article that 10% ethanol will DECREASE performance (ie horsepower and mileage) by 3%. And e-85 will decrease performance by 15% in present e85 designed vehicles.
Neither motor company plans on exstensive hybrids as we know them. AGAIN.. for the near future the focus is on smaller 4 cylinder and 6 cyliner engines with turbo's to replace the current V-6's and V-8's. I read this article on MSNAUTOINSIDER.
I have run 10% ethanol for years in my vehicles (work & POV)for hundreds of thousands of miles without any problems. That said - I no longer run ethanol because I feel it is at the root of our out-of-control prices. In 20 years ethanol from corn will be looked back at as one of the biggest boondoggles in history. There will be dozens of rusting hulks of plants across the Midwest, no longer needed as ethanol from corn is no more. There are ethanol plants popping up all over Nebraska and they guzzle water like nothing before. A single plant will consume more water in a year than the city of Grand Island and they are building these plants in areas that are already in the middle of a decades long drought - brilliant. If you want sensible alternatives to oil and want to help control skyrocketing food prices - contact your local Congressman/woman and tell them to stop the current Farm Bill and repeal the ethanol mandates. It will only make things expediential worse. Until ethanol is produced from something other than corn, tell Congress to drop the import tariff on Brazilian ethanol and lets buy it from them. The Brazilian's can produce and ship ethanol to the US for .50 less a gallon than it can be produced from corn here. Congress has enacted a .55 / per gallon import on foreign ethanol in order to ensure US farmers get the payoff and the consumer takes in the pocketbook. Until a sensible process for producing ethanol is found, I will remain a reformed biofuel user.
Producing ethonal from something other than corn is not the answer. If they start making ethanol from switchgrass the farmers will not grow corn wheat, barley, oats etc for food they will grow switchgrass. This means edible grains will still be in short supply.
By the way, I have heard that several ethanol plants that were recently built in Nebraska have already closed down. Here is hoping that this means eventually they all will close.
'05' F-250 Power Stroke
'00' 30' Cameo Fifth Wheel
Every time one plant fails - a USDA backed loan prompts the building of another and so it goes. There are a lot of other 'products' that ethanol can be extracted from other than field grown crops. Seaweed and algae for instance and it doesn't have to be grown in lakes or in the ocean. Getting the farmer out of the equation is the important part because the USDA and Congress will perpetuate the taxing of the rest of us to subsidize the harvest of unprofitable sources of energy.
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edited 05/21/08 02:41pm by jlfiber *
Total ethanol production amounts to 15% of feed corn and the leftover mash is used for animal feed so it's not effecting the price of food meant for humans.
The price of grains are being driven up by commodity speculators and third world countries that are starting to enjoy a higher standard of living and want to eat better, meaning more.
What you don't see in the news is big AGs profits are now comparable to big oil.
Ethanol plants are closing because of lack of distribution network.
Gale Banks explained that more power can be had from ethanol by raising compression ratio's or turbo/supercharging.
We have nearly 1/2 billion farm acreage in the US and yet we only use 72 million acres.
If our government would have done something, anything after the last crisis in the 70s this wouldn't even be a topic.
just my .02
Dennis
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edited 05/21/08 05:06pm by 69cayo *
c.traveler2 wrote: BiGG,one has to take into account all the engery it take to produce a finished product,this is also know as the Total Carbon Footprint of that product.More total energy is used to make ethanol (for now) than one get out of it,so you have a net lost,plus the ethanol has less BTU's in it than gasoline.
Ethanol production does not consume more power than the ethanol produces.
Quote: As far as the MTBE goes the gasoline producers were forced to use it by law put in place by the "greenie people". I forget which lake in northern California that was poisoned due to MTBE usage.
The Clean Air Act requires an oxygenate be added to gasoline to make it burn cleaner. It’s not the “greenie people” responsible for this, its ordinary everyday citizens across the country that enjoy breathing non-toxic clean air. Smog is not pleasant for anybody for many reasons but there are exceptions, just look at all those claiming ethanol is a “scam”, they love smog and would love to breathe as much as possibly just so they can maintain their scam delusions.
MTBE worked great for an oxygenate and really helped clean the air but of course we are now seeing the ill effects of that choice with permanent ground water contamination and a host of other nasty’s. Ethanol works great for an oxygenate also and has little impact on the environment compared with MTBE or gasoline without an oxygenate.
Looking for any information available on Del Rey "Sky Lounge" and Kamp King slide-ins for preservation/restoration projects.
All octane does is prevent pre-ignition in engines that have higher compression,using a higher octane fuel in an engine that does not require it will give you no performance gain....But it will give you pocketbook drain.
Oil was about 120.00 a barrel last week. Since then, Congress passed a resolution to sue OPEC using American anti trust law and the Congress also began grilling oil exec's about the price of oil and threatened to end Government subsidies for the oil industry. Makes you feel like your getting somewhere sticking it to the man now EH? Plus, your favorite members of congress get quality face time on TV sticking it to the man so you'll think they're doing something for you. Since those two events, oil is now 134+ a gallon. Looks like the sticking it to the man tactic and blaming Bush is working really well.
Oil companies may be making a lot of money now but that has not always been the case. Don't forget the Government is raking it in with percentage based gas taxes for each gallon sold. I think here in Flushington State, the total tax on gas is about 1.50 per gallon. So essentially, the government makes as much or more than the evil oil companies and we haven't had more than 40 miles of new road built in this state in 30 years. I wonder if it is in Governments interest to have the price of gas lowered. The look tough for the public tactics listed above thus far, seem to be producing a rise in the price of gas to me. I know, lets institute price controls! That worked really well during the Jimmy Carter era. Remember gas lines, even/odd license number days, and my favorite, no gas today. That was when the Arabs shut off oil to the US. Thanks guy's. And thanks again for what you're doing now. Really appreciate it. Remember, payback's a ***** and we'll remember your help with this current situation when your pants are down around your ankles someday.
Now, what would have happened if Bush's push to open ANWR (Alaska)for oil production had passed? ANWR is a tiny area. Take a plain white sheet of paper and call it Alaska. Then take a pen and put a dot on the top in the middle of the page. That dot is larger in scale than the proposed drilling area. Oil spills? The ground is permanently frozen. No penetration and easy cleanup if a spill ever happened. It's the perfect place to drill. There are no animals, the ground is frozen, there's no food except for garbage.
What would have happened if 2 refineries were built? One on the east coast and one serving the west coast. Our refineries are working at near capacity when everything is working right. Right now, if one refinery had a problem, gas will rocket upward. We need more refineries to process that oil from ANWR.
What should be happening right now is to build and convert existing infrastructure to use fuel types where most appropriate. Powerplants supplying electricity should burn only coal. America is the Saudi Arabia of coal. Lets use it! Ships at sea and other large power operations should use coal or bunker oil. Scrubbing technology to clean emissions is better than ever. Trucks should all run diesel for best efficiency. Cars should all run gas or diesel, be turbocharged, and have variable firing order to reduce the number of cylinders running till the power is needed. Natural gas should be used for home heating and appliances. Electric cars for around town can charge overnight when the power grid demand is low but capacity is there and unused.
If you really want to stick it to the man. Specifically commodities speculators who are artificially driving up the price of oil. Announce the implementation of what I suggest above and prices will fall dramatically overnight. Speculators will lose billions on the collapse of the price of oil. Oil states will have to pump more oil again to get their income back up. Right now, oil is so inflated there is no incentive to produce more. They are making more now than when they pumped out 1 million barrels more per day than they are now.
They are in a strange position. The price went up, they made a windfall of profit, they produced less and the price went up further, Why would they produce more to lower the price when they are making more now by selling less. The only way to break this stranglehold is to get serious and start doing what I've suggested above.
OK I'm done ranting. You can start disagreeing with me now.
ALSO:
My F-250 5.4 liter, consistently gets 10.5 mpg on gasohol and 11.3 mpg on 92 oct premium gas. This trip is everyday, 40 miles at 50-65 mph and 40 miles stop and go 25-40 mph. My power is better on gas too.
As I understand it. Fuel cells are a really neat idea but require a platinum catalyst to work. There is not enough platinum on earth to build a fuel cell for everybody. That seems like a problem to me unless something else works as a catalyst.
Windmills work great in the wind but change beautiful landscapes forever just like a hole in the ground for coal.
Tidal action power generation sounds interesting off the Oregon coast.
Solar systems on house roofs should cost less and be used a lot more.
It isn't one thing that will solve the problem of energy, but a bunch together will go a long way.
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