BiGG, 96Cayo and DirtEngineer are doing a wonderful job at myth-busting the "ethanol questions". Cudos for including numerous cites to back your statements. And, keep writing.
For example: I think I see a reduction in miles per gallon with E10, however it gets swallowed-up when we drive into a 20-mile per hour head-wind or when climbing mountains when we see a 15% hit in mileage (now, 15% IS measurable!). Result: a 1~2% hit in mileage due to E10 usage is virtually undetectable because of variable environmental and bad driver habit factors. 1~2% mile per gallon reductions are nearly impossible to detect when environmental driving factors and human driving inconsistencies are factored-in.
Someone mentions "import ethanol from Brazil..." Are you kidding? Import fuel subject to market pricing (it may seem cheap today, but just wait a few hours)? Have we not learned that lesson already from importing oil? Remember, we need to bring fuel diversity and a-to-z production home, not relying on shipping here from 3rd World countries.
Cheers,
Silver-
*Congress can/will do nothing to curb the prices of *foreign oil* and fuel. Expect to see $150 a bbl far, far sooner than I had predicted on this Forum just a few months ago. Additionally, watch it go to $200~$250 a bbl by next year (my revised prediction)
Just read in a Chevron article that 10% ethanol will DECREASE performance (ie horsepower and mileage) by 3%. And e-85 will decrease performance by 15% in present e85 designed vehicles.
Could you link that article? I would like the opportunity to debunk its contents but gotta know exactly what it says. E10 does *not* DECREASE performance!
Looking for any information available on Del Rey "Sky Lounge" and Kamp King slide-ins for preservation/restoration projects.
jlfiber wrote: I have run 10% ethanol for years in my vehicles (work & POV)for hundreds of thousands of miles without any problems. That said - I no longer run ethanol because I feel it is at the root of our out-of-control prices. In 20 years ethanol from corn will be looked back at as one of the biggest boondoggles in history. There will be dozens of rusting hulks of plants across the Midwest, no longer needed as ethanol from corn is no more.
Not even remotely true, ethanol plants are a major growth market and will continue to be for many decades worldwide. A ethanol plant is a distillery, a distillery can produce ethanol out of nearly anything with a few modifications. We are already making ethanol out of several products besides corn but no matter how many other products we make it out of, we will always continue distilling corn since we have such an abundance of it here. About 80% of the 13+ billion bushels we grow was fed directly to livestock in the past, now we make ethanol out of it first and then feed it to the livestock. A “boondoggle” would be if we were ever stupid enough to stop getting two products out of the same corn that was once fed directly to livestock.
Quote: There are ethanol plants popping up all over Nebraska and they guzzle water like nothing before. A single plant will consume more water in a year than the city of Grand Island and they are building these plants in areas that are already in the middle of a decades long drought – brilliant.
Yes, ethanol production requires water but with three-quarters of the planet covered in it there’s not much sense in worrying about that. A bigger worry is fuel to get you to work. A smart choice for that fuel is DOMESTIC fuel.
Quote: If you want sensible alternatives to oil and want to help control skyrocketing food prices - contact your local Congressman/woman and tell them to stop the current Farm Bill and repeal the ethanol mandates.
1. Skyrocketing food prices are due to the skyrocketing cost of imported fossil oil, ethanol has a negligible effect on food prices in comparison.
2. And what do you propose we use for an oxygenate in gasoline if we don’t use ethanol? We gotta comply with the Clean Air Act so what exactly do you propose we do that with since gasoline needs an oxygenate to make it burn completely and cleanly?
Quote: It will only make things expediential worse. Until ethanol is produced from something other than corn, tell Congress to drop the import tariff on Brazilian ethanol and lets buy it from them. The Brazilian's can produce and ship ethanol to the US for .50 less a gallon than it can be produced from corn here. Congress has enacted a .55 / per gallon import on foreign ethanol in order to ensure US farmers get the payoff and the consumer takes in the pocketbook. Until a sensible process for producing ethanol is found, I will remain a reformed biofuel user.
1. Brazil produces less ethanol than we do and could never produce enough to replace domestic production.
2. We already import ethanol from Brazil
3. The import tariff is designed to prevent third world countries from replacing all of our jobs here much like the other import tariffs do for many other products. We do need jobs here and considering all other countries have tariffs on products we export to them it only makes sense that we do the same.
You guys have to stop making these irresponsible calls for alternative forms of energy. Do you realize how many oil company executives will be jobless if our dependence on oil wanes?
The oil companies have been fighting against alternative energy sources. It just is not profitable. And profit drives the industry. Hydrogen can be produced by applying an electrical current across water. Water is oxygen and hydrogen, hence H2O. As soon as the energy executives find a way to charge $4 per gallon of water and be able to keep us from using anything but the water that they provide, hydrogen cars will be plentiful. There has been technology around for many years that would allow cars to get 50-100 MPG. And as soon as the oil companies find out about the technology, they buy it up or hush it in any way possible. I personally know of a back woods mountain that was a family friend that was able to achieve way over 50 MPG's from an old Willy's. He got a visit one weekend and we never again saw that old Willy's around. Said it sold it for the greater good. Always had money after that. Go figure.
Road Runners wrote: Producing ethonal from something other than corn is not the answer. If they start making ethanol from switchgrass the farmers will not grow corn wheat, barley, oats etc for food they will grow switchgrass. This means edible grains will still be in short supply.
Ethanol is the answer and our future so everybody may as well get used too the idea
Some noteworthy items …..
In a previous post I mentioned about 80% of the corn we grow here was previously fed directly to livestock. We consume about 10% and export about 10%. We now make ethanol out of some of what was once fed directly to livestock first and then feed the byproduct to livestock giving us two products out of the same core = very smart idea.
Currently, the US Government pays over 25 billion dollars per year to keep over 60 million acres (that’s more land than Ohio & Indiana combined!) sitting idle. The reason this land is sitting idle is to keep crop prices stable and high enough for farmers to make a profit. It’s ridiculous to pay 25 billion per year now when that land can start making money and reduce imported fossil oil instead of costing US money and importing fossil oil every year!
A recent USDA biomass report shows where we will soon produce 30% of our fuel consumption just using current forestry/agricultural waste for ethanol production! Take that and ethanol made from corn and other products like switchgrass and the Middle East will soon be looking for somebody else to buy their fossil oil offerings.
Quote: By the way, I have heard that several ethanol plants that were recently built in Nebraska have already closed down. Here is hoping that this means eventually they all will close.
There are no ethanol plants shut down that I have ever heard of, in fact, many new ones are being built as we speak and many existing ones are being expanded and/or there are plans for expansion.
I think what you read is several grain elevators have shut down because they are no longer needed too store corn since the corn is being shipped directly to ethanol plants and the byproduct that is fed to livestock is being shipped from them.
I do not know what to add to Camper_Jeff_+_Kelli's post. Seems like there are people out there that can take an open mind and conclude the same ideas.
I just had to had a couple of more statements.
What about putting more into oil shale research? In-place shale oil resources in the Piceance Creek Basin(Green River Formation in Utah, Colorado), total estimate is 1.007 trillion barrels.
Forgot about Nuclear Power? The Idaho Energy Complex, a holding of AEHI, is a proposed $4.5 billion commercial nuclear power plant/bio-fuel "NEXT" generation facility to be constructed on a designated site in Elmore County, Idaho. The electricity provided by the nuclear plant would be sufficient to power Idaho's growing needs and allow the elimination of fossil fuels for current power production. Yep you read that right; "nuclear power plant/bio-fuel", uses only 10% of the water(current nuclear plants) needs and the extra heat will be used for the production of bio-fuel. Must be able to feed my diesel.
jlfiber wrote: Every time one plant fails - a USDA backed loan prompts the building of another and so it goes. There are a lot of other 'products' that ethanol can be extracted from other than field grown crops. Seaweed and algae for instance and it doesn't have to be grown in lakes or in the ocean. Getting the farmer out of the equation is the important part because the USDA and Congress will perpetuate the taxing of the rest of us to subsidize the harvest of unprofitable sources of energy.
Humm, got a link showing where any ethanol plant has failed? Got a link showing where any plant has defaulted on a loan? I’m quite certain that you do not considering I finance ethanol plants worldwide and have done my share right here in the good ol’ USA but I’ll keep an open mind just in case I missed something.
Take a look at my post right before this on and I think you will see where the American farmer should *not* be gotten out of this equation, in fact, American farming for fuel products needs too be expanded upon greatly. BTW, what I said needs to be done is already happening and you will all agree what a smart idea this is in a few years. Not long ago many sat around claiming the horseless carriage could never replace their horse and they were saying that simply because they didn’t understand what was going on around them at the time. I invite all of you to see me in 5-10 years as I’m certain you will all agree what a truly great idea it is that America was the technology and production leader in ethanol right now.
BTU per gallon is a measure of energy in the form of heat. The doesn't necessarily equate to miles per gallon or horsepower or torque.
So you are saying that the diesel that I buy and get more mileage out of is a dream? Sorry I am being sarcastic dirtengineer, but the BTU content does make a huge difference in the power available.
Below are from standard tables that every one uses for doing calcs on any design.
So are you saying that these are wrong? Your handle leads me to believe that you are a civil engineer (PE). At least that is what we call dirt engineers at ODOT.
2006 F-350 PSD DRW - 2004 Eagle Cap 950 - Rancho 9000s - Ride Rites and "Homemade Super Bump Stops"
bufordt wrote: ........ There has been technology around for many years that would allow cars to get 50-100 MPG. And as soon as the oil companies find out about the technology, they buy it up or hush it in any way possible. I personally know of a back woods mountain that was a family friend that was able to achieve way over 50 MPG's from an old Willy's. He got a visit one weekend and we never again saw that old Willy's around. Said it sold it for the greater good. Always had money after that. Go figure.
Since these urban legends about miracle mileage seem to come out of the woodwork from every direction every time fuel prices increase and are always debunked as just that = urban legend, I will still keep and open mind here and make your friend an offer, here’s my offer…
I will pay him $10,000,000 cash right now on the spot if he can show me a working example of his alleged technology. For my ten million dollars I ask little and offer a lot = I want 1/10 of one percent of the newly formed company and I will take care of all the details.
The minute this technology is secured by patents we will sell it to the highest bidder whereas he will walk away with billions without ever doing another thing after showing me this marvel in technology that scientists and engineers from around the world have failed to perfect for decades now.
“The greater good” is maximum mileage for all, contact him right away and get him to contact me, I’ll see that you get at least $1,000,000 also.
bufordt wrote: You guys have to stop making these irresponsible calls for alternative forms of energy. Do you realize how many oil company executives will be jobless if our dependence on oil wanes?
The oil companies have been fighting against alternative energy sources. It just is not profitable. And profit drives the industry. Hydrogen can be produced by applying an electrical current across water. Water is oxygen and hydrogen, hence H2O. As soon as the energy executives find a way to charge $4 per gallon of water and be able to keep us from using anything but the water that they provide, hydrogen cars will be plentiful. There has been technology around for many years that would allow cars to get 50-100 MPG. And as soon as the oil companies find out about the technology, they buy it up or hush it in any way possible. I personally know of a back woods mountain that was a family friend that was able to achieve way over 50 MPG's from an old Willy's. He got a visit one weekend and we never again saw that old Willy's around. Said it sold it for the greater good. Always had money after that. Go figure.
Do you know what they use to refine crude oil to make gasoline? Do a search and you may be surprised. There is ALOT of money being used to do research on alternative fuels by oil companies.
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