PaulJ2 wrote: The oxygen sensor is part of the problem with the poor milage. It's job is to detect any left over oxygen in the exhaust and readjust the mixture accordingly.
Detection of oxygen means a too lean or inconplete burn in the cylinder. So what does it do?--The computer enriches the fuel mixture causing a mileage drop.
Oxygenated fuel "tricks" the computer.
The other reason is ethanol burns slower and needs more spark timing advance.
Third--raising compression would increase power greatly.
Someone on here mentioned the automakers coming out with small gas engines with turbos. With these raising compression, and with ethanol, maybe this is where they are all going for now.
So the timing is still to low for a complete burn.Is that right?
It would be a lot simpler to admit it was a stupid idea in the first place. And stop westing corn and our money as how many cars do we have in this country does not like to run on 10 %.I go along with a engine can be made to burn it efficient but how many are on the road.The average person trying to feed his family needs help now. So put this pocket lining of a few aside and help America.
I for one have reduced my fuel consumption as I can but many are just trying to get to work and back home. And not really that I have to as for money. But I am hard headed and do not like to be taken. I know I am but not as bad.
As for camping yes I am still going at around sixty MPH. I am retired so I don`t really care How long it takes me to get there.
Our last trip we stopped half way going for two days and one coming home.Where before I would have drove straight through.Stayed at a state park going up and a friends coming home.The slower speed yields
three plus more miles per gallon four and a half on the tank that was real gas not 10%. So turned a seven day trip into ten for about the same price.A little less than 70 dollars a day total. That is still cheap fun.
If it is so good for your car why are they not running 10 % at the race tracks this year?I
Many high end race cars and drag cars used to run on almost 100% alcohol ..... albeit with some nitro-methane in for a bit of kick. You can run a higher compression ratio with alcohol and so it will run more efficiently than since your compression ratio directly multiplies your efficiency as diesel owners well know and you can get back what is lost in the lower BTU per unit that way. Problem is the motor has to be designed to work at the higher compression ratio, and the higher compression ratios are incompatible with gasoline so even the 'flex fuel' cars have to be designed for the lowest common denominator fuel and of course the pollution standards put strong restrictions on compression ratios by virtue of requiring low nitrous oxide emissions.
If the rumours of turbos making a big time comeback are true then of course it is possible to adjust the effective compression ratio under computer control and maybe some of this (government inspired) mess can be cleaned up.
My personal experience is I noticed no change when I used the 10% blend here; but this is not scientific since there is no guarantee on the mix at the pumps here in Ontario and all I know was there was a maximum of 10% (but no commitment on the minimum). I check the computer at most every fill-up - I would have seen any significant change.
Here in Oregon the EPA in 2004 recomended in a document that ethanol be removed from our fuel, as there was no longer a need for it with the percentage of newer clean burning cars on the road now. However thanks to our stupid governer and just as stupid legislature, it is now not only to be used in the winter (Nov-Mar) but mandated year around. Reason they gave when asked was--"we want to be sure the air is clean". Brilliant!
If it is so good for your car why are they not running 10 % at the race tracks this year?I
Many high end race cars and drag cars used to run on almost 100% alcohol ..... albeit with some nitro-methane in for a bit of kick. You can run a higher compression ratio with alcohol and so it will run more efficiently than since your compression ratio directly multiplies your efficiency as diesel owners well know and you can get back what is lost in the lower BTU per unit that way. Problem is the motor has to be designed to work at the higher compression ratio, and the higher compression ratios are incompatible with gasoline so even the 'flex fuel' cars have to be designed for the lowest common denominator fuel and of course the pollution standards put strong restrictions on compression ratios by virtue of requiring low nitrous oxide emissions.
If the rumours of turbos making a big time comeback are true then of course it is possible to adjust the effective compression ratio under computer control and maybe some of this (government inspired) mess can be cleaned up.
My personal experience is I noticed no change when I used the 10% blend here; but this is not scientific since there is no guarantee on the mix at the pumps here in Ontario and all I know was there was a maximum of 10% (but no commitment on the minimum). I check the computer at most every fill-up - I would have seen any significant change.
I agree with you on the drag cars and such.All I am saying is cars on the road are not made for it.And the government is part of the trouble.
As you stated they don`t say you can`t put less than 10% in gas.And I think that is why a lot of fill ups very here.It comes down to just like the seventy`s. Every one that can is going to milk the public for all they can get until all gas supply tanks are full and no where for it to go.witch in some ways is not a bad thing.As the U.S. is a wasteful country when it comes to gas.As in gals that weigh less than 125 driving a Pickup or SUV that weigh`s 6000 LB`s or more to wall Mart and to work and pick up kids and men are just as bad carrying a brief case to work in a hummer at 8 miles or so to the gallon.Yes I have all ways own a truck or van of some kind but not for every day driving.The only time I ever owed one car it was a 66 Mustang 200 six.
Yes we have a big van a E350 we got it the end of 2004 and have put less than 23000 miles on it.All when there was a need for it and a car would not do.Our ever day car is a 2002 Buck Century that was getting 27 to 29 every tank 33 high way. now around 24 to 26 every day. Before
you say it needs tuning up it will still get the high millage when I can find 100% regular gas.
I don't see how anyone can argue with my experience of getting better gas millage with non-ethanol gasoline in my truck. Its real world, its consistent, its reproducible. The person who made the first post in this thread has the same engine and the same expereince.
We have equal trucks ... What you are saying is ...
My truck with 31.5 gallons of gasoline plus 3.5 gallons of ethanol for a total of 35 gallons of E10 will only drive the same distance as ...
Your truck that has 26 ΒΌ gallons of gasoline?
Are you hearing what you are saying here?
I am not going to say what will happen with your truck. My truck loses up to 25% gas millage when running E10.
There are many people out there with vehicles that don't experience millage loss with E10. As you know my story is not unique, you have spent countless hours trying to defend Ethanol when other forum users report negative impact to millage. I expect you to fight my claims in this thread until it gets locked by a moderator, something which is not new to you.
BiGG wrote:
Considering I am a known expert in this field and represent billions of dollars from others that are experts around the planet maybe you should reconsider.
Remember, MTBE is an oxygenate as is ethanol; ethanol being the current MTBE replacement.
Quote: Virtually everybody I know has experienced one problem or another with E10.
...well, in big black and white letters in my owner's manual, it states that the '04 Silverado 2500HD 6L is designed to run on E10, and recommends that the new oxygenate formulations be used in it's fuel.
Ethanol may only be a concern in marine applications, when operating in 100% humidity (i.e. out at sea, or on the lake) where the ethanol can attract more moisture than any terrestrial operating vehicle. BTW: 10% ethanol is not considered a concentration high enough to affect any rubber hosing in fuel pathway. Old gas tanks with pre-80's formulated fiberglass (mostly in marine applications) are virtually non existent today. Have you get some evidence that old formulation fiberglass is being used by automobile manufacturers in today's vehicles?
[quote=BiGG]
Considering I am a known expert in this field and represent billions of dollars from others that are experts around the planet maybe you should reconsider.
[/quote ]
I my self trust a good old boy that can divide gallons in to miles more that and expert lining his pockets with dollars for the American people harping that it is good for them to get less for more. While only getting 9/10 of a gallon of gas.
You did not have to tell me that you worked for them. That was evident from past post.But I am glad that you did for people that may not have figured that out. I will go you one better as I am in car clubs and such. I am pushing that dealers that don`t put this******in there gas put it on there price sign so we will not be wasting gas pulling into stations and then see 10% on the pump and have to leave. I think there should be a web sight like gas prices that report stations that sell real 100% gas. So I don`t west time on the road trying to find one.Every time I find a station with real gas I ask them to put it on the big sign.
Ummmm blenders get an exemption from the 18.4 cent tax.....
This is another of those biased researched projects.
MTBE (oop's it gets in the wells.water table, kills fish)
Strange, if E10 causes a 10% reduction in mileage what have we really gained besides consuming 90 % amount of gas....That means we still burn the same amount of gasoline because you need 10% more.
Yet the story we are being sold is that we are using less gasoline, 100% stuff, which, if you are in-fact getting a drop in mileage of 10% we are still using the same amount of gasoline, only now we are subsidizing the Farmers and Blenders.....I think that's the story!!
If it's pollution we are dealing with then we shouldn't oxygenate during the summer ( add ethanol). That was the original goal...Reduce polution, not create another subsidization.
Jim
94 F-250 ex cab,460, E40D tranny,airbags w/pump,bilstein shocks, 2000 Bigfoot 9.6 2500 camper, Xantrex XADC 60 converter, 1 Universal group 30 AGM and an eu2000i honda genny.
Wife and Molly- Ausie,Queensland healer
After reading some of the gvt reports regarding ethanol and Aviation Gas, they say......
"The FAA has strict regulations in place that require only aviation grade fuels be used in certificated aircraft. There are supplemental type certificates (STC) in use that allow some "properly altered" aircraft to utilize automotive grade fuels that meet certain STM standards.
The pilots/owners of the aircraft where automotive fuel STCs are incorporated have the responsibility to ensure the automotive fuel they use meets those STM standards. Compliance with this requirement is mandatory.
It should be noted that there are several aircraft operating in Hawaii that operate under 14 CFR 103 regulations (ultralight aircraft) and aircraft that have been issued experimental airworthiness certificates (homebuilts).
Hawaii's local FAA safety officer has presented information at General Aviation Safety Meetings (WINGS) that Hawaii's automotive fuels are likely not to meet the required STM standards.
All airmen are reminded that it is their responsibility to ensure the grade of fuel they use in their aircraft meets the regulatory standards specified for their aircraft.
Airmen may direct their queries to the local FAA safety office, (808) 837-8335, and may view pertinent FAA Advisory Circulars and regulations at the FAA website, faa.gov, for example:
* CE 07-06.pdf, "Alcohol (ethanol or methanol) present in the automobile gasoline," dated 10/27/2006
* AC 91-33A.pdf, "Use of Alternate Grades of Aviation Gasoline for Grade 80/87, and Use of Automotive Gasoline," dated 7/18/1984
* AC 21-21.pdf, "Use of Automotive Gasoline in Agricultural Aircraft," dated 8/24/1984
* AC 20-43c.pdf, "Aircraft Fuel Control," dated 10/20/1976
Now I understand......If the stuff were to kill people because of engine failure in an aircraft the GVT wants to make sure they told the pilots not to use this stuff!!!!!
The GVT knows there will be problems.
Yes, my 04 Silverado says the same thing. I read this to mean the fuel system components will not be damaged by E10 fuel. Also Cheverolet is doing it's part by recomending a fuel that helps clean the air, etc, etc.
My complaint is that it is a very inefficient fuel when used in a low compression, computer controled engine.
I remember the MTBE stuff, I know it was used in California for a time but I don't know if it ever made it to Oregon or not.
Offline
