My max GCVW is 8500 so I could go with a 3500lb trailer and still be within limits. 8500-4812 (tongue weight excluded)=3688 lbs.
The only limit I would exceed is frontal area sq footage which is published as 32sq/ft, a hybrid would be close to double that. I've checked the horsepower estimator (online tool) and could go up a 2% grade with a 20mph headwind at 65 mph and still be less than the 200hp I have available.
My two questions are, what do these trailers actually weigh with options, I see lots of 16ft advertised at about 2700lbs, is this realistic?
A lot of the marketing of these trailers seems to be directed to owners of mini vans, I see plenty of pictures in the used ads of people towing with minivans, what's the poblem? The numbers make it look realistic.
I'm not sure what the lighter ones way, but my 232 has a GVWR of about 6,000. When the DW & I started looking at HTTs we owned a Toyota Seinna. After a little looking we couldn't find one that fit our needs - we have 4 kids and wanted as much room as possible (we are also currently expecting twins, and by next season will have 6 kids in the HTT!). We followed the advice of some friends - "buy your second camper first". So I went ahead and traded the Toyota in and bought a Nissan Armada, which can tow 9800 lbs, and handles our Jayco 232 with ease. I know that option won't work for everyone, and it was a VERY expensive weekend, but was the route we choose. Another nice point is the Armada will still fit the whole family - even after the twins get here
I for one have no problem with a minivan as a tow vehicle. I tow a 03 B-19 by R-Vision with a 03 Mazda MPV. The size and weight of my trailer are as high as I would go with the van. I've towed in the Smokies, and the mountains of North Carolina with no problems at all.
What type of trailer are you looking at? A small HTT <20 ft or a good size PUP would be a good fit for the van. Other IMPORTANT factors are the amount of passengers and cargo you'll be traveling with and the terrain you'll be towing in. PM me or feel free to call me if you like. Too much to cover on the forum.
...The only limit I would exceed is frontal area sq footage which is published as 32sq/ft, a hybrid would be close to double that...
Very few people even notice this limitation, I'm glad you did. It is there for a reason. This is what makes a 3500lb fullsize trailer 'weigh' more than a 3500lb popup. This extra drag will wear out the drivetrain quickly.
There are some that are quite happy towing fullsize TT's with minivans, and there are some who quickly upgrade to a larger vehicle.
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2006 Surveyor SV192T
1999 Dodge Ram 1500 5.9lt 4x4
johnvan wrote: My two questions are, what do these trailers actually weigh with options, I see lots of 16ft advertised at about 2700lbs, is this realistic?
A lot of the marketing of these trailers seems to be directed to owners of mini vans, I see plenty of pictures in the used ads of people towing with minivans, what's the poblem? The numbers make it look realistic.
for that 2700lbs number, that will be the "dry" weight, which is a fantasy weight. trail cruiser makes a 17' hybrid that has a "dry" weight of 2708lbs. there's a footnote stating that this does not include options. which would be awning, microwave, a/c, spare tire, oven, battery, and so on. generally, with the basic options, you can add 300-400lbs. to the "dry" weight.
i used to pull my popup with a 4.0 v-6 explorer sport. no tow package. it was a bumper pull setup. i would never pull even the smallest hybrid with it, even with a tow package.
my opinion is that minivans are not designed for real towing. they are designed for transporting people. they are front wheel drive and a have a unitized body. none of these features are good for towing.
you can pull a small hybrid with a minivan. whether the minivan will hold up or whether you'll be happy with being under-powered and near your towing limits, is something you'll have to decide for yourself.
there will be lots of people who will disagree with me. this is just my opinion.
out west, we have to deal with the Sierras and the Cascades. we will burn up a minivan quickly.
Dan- Firefighter, Shawn- Musician/Entrepreneur, Zoe- Faithful Golden Retriever, 2007 Chevrolet Avalanche LS, 2007 Rockwood Roo 23SS w/Equalizer and Prodigy, and 5 Mtn. bikes and 2 Road bikes
There's no math involved. Ford has rated this vehicle at 3500 pounds subject to several considerations, none of which increase that number.
Here's what Ford says in 2003 RV/Towing guide:
Quote: Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight (as shown in the Trailer
Towing Selector charts pages 19-23) is the highest possible
weight of a fully loaded trailer the vehicle can tow, based
on a minimum towing vehicle GVW. It assumes a towing
vehicle with any mandatory options, no cargo, tongue load
of 10-15% (conventional trailer) ... and driver only (150 pounds).
.... Weight of additional options, passengers, cargo and hitch must be deducted
from this weight.
This same publication states the maximum towing capacity of a 2003 Windstar is 3500 pounds. Ford has done the math for you. That's all you get: 3500 pounds. Empty. Just you. An auxillary transmission cooler may save your transmission but won't help the rest of the drive train or the unit body.
2700 pound "dry weight" hybrids will exceed 3000 pounds before you drive off the lot as not even the spare tire or sink cover or awning is included. Be easily 4000 pounds in camping trim.
-- Chuck
'06 Roo 23SS behind '07 Expedition out of Cleveland Our Photo pages
I've read the statement you're referring to but it seems specific to the F-150, 250 and 350. A couple of pages down it has another statement regarding the Excursion which doesn't mention a 150lb driver. On the same page you will see the Windstar with no disclaimer. The only statement that seems to apply is that you cannot exceed GVW or GCVW or the 3500lbs.
As far as options the weight I've used is my actual vehicle weight as shipped. (I typed in my VIN on the Ford website and got it) Shipped weight doesn't include fuel so I added that. It should include all of my options.
The other thing I find confusing is the 32sq/ft frontal area limitation, how do you credit for an aerodynamic trailer as opposed to a giant cube?
My original plan was a PUP anyway but these ultralite hybrids are nice. A 2700lb trailer with 500lbs of options would still work mathematically. I just don't want to be standing on the side of the road with a blown transmission and a calculator in my hand, scratching my head saying "this shouldn't have happened"
Quote: The only statement that seems to apply is that you cannot exceed GVW or GCVW or the 3500lbs.
Whether or not that's true, I seriously doubt that a 16' HTT will weigh no more than 3500 lbs when loaded for camping. Full LP tanks, awnings, any water in the freshwater tank or hot water heater, and any dealer-installed options will add to the UVW. Then there's the weight of the stuff you will want to keep in the trailer: kitchen utensils, cookware, clothes, towels, food, tools needed for hitching/unhitching, leveling blocks, wheel chocks, extension cord, hoses, sewer hose & connections, etc.
Our hybrid trailer was listed with a "dry weight" of 3500 lbs. When we took it to a CAT (truck) scale, loaded with all our gear but WITHOUT food or clothes, with freshwater tank empty and LP gas tanks full, it already weighed 4400 lbs. That's an increase of 1100 lbs when only partially loaded! The GVWR of the trailer was 5000 lbs, and we estimate that we towed it weighing 4800-4900 lbs on a regular basis. I seriously doubt you'll be able to keep the weight of such a trailer within specs.
As far as "credit" for a more aerodynamic trailer, if there's a front back-slant or rounded top to the ones you look at, it won't make an awful lot of difference. We towed our popup and then our HTT with a 2002 Explorer and there was a HUGE difference, even though the HTT had a back-slanted front end. MPG with the PUP: about 16-17. MPG with the HTT: about 10-11.
A third point: towing something that is right up against the tow rating of your vehicle is not a lot of fun. If you're taking short trips to close-by campgrounds, you won't notice it, but a long trip will definitely tell. Our Explorer did ok, though not great, towing an almost-5000 lb trailer in flat country, but when we crossed the rolling prairie into a 20-mph headwind, it really struggled. The Explorer was rated to tow 5000 lbs. Would I tow that much with it again? No. We traded it in on a truck.
You may not break your minivan by towing this, but you will strain it, and you will probably not enjoy the towing experience much. Been there, done that.
* This post was
edited 05/29/08 03:57pm by kknowlton *
My Palomino 17 HTT weighs in right about 2800# when I drove it across the truck stop scales. That's within 100# of the estimated dry weight in the advertisements. Typically on a trip, I only pack about 200#-300# of junk in it, so I'm running right at 3000#
I tow this TT with an Astro van, which has about 50HP less than your Windstar (IIRC, the Windstar and Freestar have about 200hp) It's a little sluggish with the Astro going up hills, so I think that extra bit of kick will probably be what's needed to tow with your Freestar. As far as handling goes, you will forget it's back there most of the time behind the Astro. The Astro has a bit beefier suspension than the Ford minivans since it is built on a truck frame. Still, I think you calculations are safe. I see many people exceed the numbers by considerable amounts and get by with it. The fact you are attempting (and doing it) to stay within the vehicle's capacity will mean save, comfortable towing.
1. Your van curb weight seems absurdly low. Ignore what Ford says and take it to a truck scale empty. Bet it weighs more like 4,200#.
2. You note that you have 200hp available. Not unless you drive around with engine revs at peak. I'm guessing, but with that engine it is probably somewhere around 4,000 rpms. Lock it in 2nd gear sometime and try driving at 4,000 rpms. It don't sound fun. More realistic to expect to tolerate 2,500-3,000 sustained as tolerable. You have substantially less hp on tap at those rev ranges.
I love minivans and they make great popup tow vehicles. I have 107,000 miles on my Odyssey and it has towed our Sun Valley all over the place. No towing related issues ever. But I wouldn't hook it up to a full height RV. No way.
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, Shawn- Musician/Entrepreneur
, Zoe- Faithful Golden Retriever
, 2007 Chevrolet Avalanche LS, 2007 Rockwood Roo 23SS w/Equalizer and Prodigy, and 5 Mtn. bikes and 2 Road bikes
