The standard answer for all dilemma seems to be "Education is the key!" Really?
Shall we enumerate the problems that still persist waiting for the public to become "educated".
I am of the opinion that when all solutions to persistent social problems have been explored, proposed, and rejected the last resort is to claim that "what we need is education!"
Spay and neuter doesn't work, taxing breeders doesn't work, getting rid of puppy mills and backyard breeders is apparently impossible, so we are left with "education"!
Anyone want to tackle how we are going to "Educate" society to stop breeding their pets? I see plenty of PSA's and animal rights organization appeals on television with wrenching videos of abused and abandoned pets--still the problem continues.
I am open to suggestions about how this "education" is to be accomplished and maybe instead of beating chests and pointing fingers the better goal of these types of threads is to fix on a possible solution and suggest ways to visualize the implementation of those solutions.
Ok, how do we "educate"?
* This post was
edited 06/22/08 08:37pm by chuckster11 *
Dashonthedash wrote: Virtually all pet stores that sell cats and dogs get their animals from puppy mills,
May I add that they also charge a whole heck of a lot more for their puppies versus a reputable breeder. I doubt I will ever pay over a grand for a puppy. Our newest dog found us...she is a beautiful beagle and is now spayed. She is one of the best dogs I have ever owned.
We breed based upon performance; in order to determine the ability of each dog prior to breeding we need to spend >2 years raising & training each. The proposed tax would significantly impact the ability of those in our breed who we want breeding (professional shepherds and ranchers) since they may have 4-8 intact dogs any any given time. BTW a working Border Collie pup even from the very best lines only runs $300-$500.
Mark
Mark & Renee
Jasper the Greyhound
Working Border Collies: Duncan (retired), Rae, Gyp (retired), Jody, Peg, Bette, BJ & Nell
2001 Chevy Express 2500 Cargo (rolling kennel)
2007 Nash 22M
Good question Chuck, with all the PSA's, the celebrity endorsements about spay/neuter, the programs on Animal Planet that show us a bit about the real world of shelters, newspaper articles about puppy mills & backyard breeders, etc., etc., etc..... One would think the general public would "get it" by now and spay or neuter their pets. Apparently not, the volume of unaltered pets and of course their offspring continues to grow. One would also hope they would "get it" about not supporting the breed for greed industry... again apparently not considering all the horrible puppy/kitten mills still in business.
When we are having discussions on forums like this one it's my hope that these ideals might reach a new audience of people. Sadly that is not the case based on some of responses from the pet owning posters here.
Education is the key to success in our lives. Why is it that some people just don't allow themselves to learn?
(Please note, I am talking about pet owners NOT responsible breeders or mandatory spay/neuter lawmaking).
Cat
(Jim just reads the forum once in a while)
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some sort of battle.... Live simply, love wholly, give generously, care deeply, speak kindly.
chuckster11 wrote: The standard answer for all dilemma seems to be "Education is the key!" Really?....Ok, how do we "educate"?
Obviously, our present style of "education" in this area is not working, and educates very few.
My thought would be to start younger. Most adults are pretty set in their ways, but kids are like sponges. A concentrated program in grade and high schools might be quite effective. I really believe the young folks are the ones who may have given recycling the big push.
Sure, it would take time. Idealistic? Maybe. But it would be far better than whatever has been done so far...you know, the stuff that is definitely not working.
Good question Chuck, with all the PSA's, the celebrity endorsements about spay/neuter, the programs on Animal Planet that show us a bit about the real world of shelters, newspaper articles about puppy mills & backyard breeders, etc., etc., etc..... One would think the general public would "get it" by now and spay or neuter their pets. Apparently not, the volume of unaltered pets and of course their offspring continues to grow. One would also hope they would "get it" about not supporting the breed for greed industry... again apparently not considering all the horrible puppy/kitten mills still in business.
When we are having discussions on forums like this one it's my hope that these ideals might reach a new audience of people. Sadly that is not the case based on some of responses from the pet owning posters here.
Education is the key to success in our lives. Why is it that some people just don't allow themselves to learn?
(Please note, I am talking about pet owners NOT responsible breeders or mandatory spay/neuter lawmaking).
I'm not concerned with any of the posters on this board, relative to the issues discussed, I suspect that if you are here and contributing, you are probably a responsible dog owner. That we disagree on points is more a matter of being the kind of people that express opinions on board and less a matter that we hold widely divergent opinions on the subject of stewardship of these wonderful creatures.
WE are not the problem but I am sorry to say that the people that create the problem are probably unreachable in terms of education.
I am sure they love their dogs with a passion but either will not or cannot be concerned with something so trivial as yet another litter of puppies in the garage--their lives are probably much more focused on mere survival and existence to care much about their dog's natural inclinations.
Puppy mills are merely a business. There is a demand and these people meet the demand. How do we stop people from wanting a certain breed of dog? So long as there is a waiting list of folks that will buy a product, someone will provide. We might argue that the practice is obscene but if you want to argue that people who buy these dogs "Don't care enough to deal with 'responsible breeders'" think about the enormous growth of franchise pet stores in the last two decades, the variety of foods, services, and vet clinics that has developed. I can remember having to buy dog food at the local feed store and only having one or two vets available in the county and if you dog was hurt on the weekend, forget about it! So, like it our not, the conditions for the average pet has probably improved dramatically because of the ability of the public to buy the kind of dogs they want and appreciate.
Also, as you know, I am not necessarily a fan of the "professional breeder" simply because of their attitudes and their sanctimony when it comes to how and to whom puppies of their particular breed are to be meted out. They are caught in a bind however, often their true concern for the welfare of the breed can be misinterpreted as trying to control the market for their own benefit--I am smart enough to see the dilemma they face but experienced enough in their ways to not appreciate some of the methods they employ.
To answer you last question about why people don't "allow themselves to learn" is not a mystery. People do learn--they just don't always learn what we want them to learn or don't have the same priorities that we have, or the luxury to become educated in the way we do. They are human, we are human, our focus is far different but we should not overlook the fact that conditions for the animals we love have really improved--we all need to think back to our youths and remember how dogs were treated then, remember our streets and how common it was then to see dead animals on the road--fortunately not common now. How our own dogs were treated and contained then as compared to current practice. How our governments have evolved in the treatment of pets in the community. I see improvement--not perfection, and perfection when it comes to human behavior does seem unlikely in my lifetime. I'll take the gradual awareness and appreciation that I have experienced and try to gut thru the excesses and tragedies as best I can.
I'd have to say that education HAS worked. Spay and neuter HAS worked. Creating new laws HAS worked. We need to acknowledge that there has been a big decrease in the number of animals being allowed to breed indiscriminately, and the number of animals being destroyed each year across the country. That is the result of what has been done thus far.
But there's still a long way to go. I agree that early is the time to start... kids are much more perceptive and willing to accept a new way of thinking than their parents, and not only will they do things differently as adults, they will often go home and say "this isn't okay" about behavior that they would otherwise have accepted without question.
I think that in terms of legislation, one thing to look at before mandatory spay/neuter laws would be having all states mandate spay/neuter before placement. The impact that that change has is huge in terms of reducing future unwanted litters, but I'm sure there are still places where it isn't in place.
I'm all for increased fees for intact dogs. Puppy prices will go up, and Mark, if your ranchers need a dog they'll pay for it. If not... then apparently they don't need them that badly.
Chuckster, the first beneficiaries of shutting down puppy mills would be the dogs no longer being subjected to abuse within their walls. The second ones would be the unhealthy puppies with temperament issues that won't be born, sold in pet stores to dog idiots, and then either stuck in the back yard (a common fate for a dog that doesn't turn out to be what the owners were looking for or ready to handle) or dumped at a shelter. The deluded would be owners will be the next beneficiaries.
And I do understand what you're saying. There's a desire for dogs of various breeds... just like there's a desire for rock cocaine. As long as something is wanted, it is going to be produced. Back yard breeders aren't great, but if you have a small scale operation where the animals are getting decent care, that's still better than a puppy mill with hundreds of dogs stacked on top of each other, forced to live in filth, never exercised or cared for, and half fed.
But here's a question, Rock... you want to shut down the mills, that's simple enough. But you also want to get rid of backyard breeders... and yet, you don't want mandatory spay/neuter. What's your approach to doing that?
* This post was
edited 06/23/08 12:11pm by an administrator/moderator *
susan
What I want to know is, when are they going to start selling Comfort Zone for HUMANS????? 'Cause some days...
It's not the price increase in pups that's the issue; it's the added costs to farmers/ranchers/shepherds who really work their intact dogs. These folks may decide that they will no longer breed (too much money and hassle) and the breed will then loose their experience in choosing the right dogs for breeding (loss of working ability and loss of breed function). Who knows better which dogs to breed than those who rely upon these dogs for their livelihood and daily work?
I don't know about you, but I'd rather see ranchers using dogs instead of 4-wheelers to move livestock and rely up livestock guardian dogs than lethal methods to control predators. Eliminate the people who know how to breed these dogs and there won't be a choice.
Code2High wrote: .....I'm all for increased fees for intact dogs. .....
Why?
Why should a pet owner who has an intact dog be punished with fees? Why should a person who owns 2 dogs now have to pay yearly lic.fees AND be classified as a breeding kennel?
They are not the reason there is overcrowding in shelters.
Collecting fees from them is certainly not going to stop pet owners who don't take care of their dogs and let them run the streets.
The people who are irresponsible do not buy lic tags anyway.
It will be nearly impossible to enforce these fees with those people who it is directed at, and if they are able to they are NOT going to pay the fines, if pushed into a corner by local authorities they are simply going to let the dog go, euthanize the dog, dump it on someones property, etc. Mandating everyone is not miraculously going to 'change' all the bad pet owners who do not take care of their animals.
These bills are not just 'mandatory neuter only' bills, they include 'numerous issues'
that inflict serious punishments directed at the responsible pet owners, and they are wrapped into one bill, and can not be separated.
Those of you who have a neutered dog, did anyone force you to do it?
Why do you think it is ok to force an owner you do not know to neuter their dog?
* This post was
edited 06/23/08 09:57pm by rockhillmanor *
31 ft Four Winds
Chevy Tracker 4x4 Blue Ox We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned,
so as to have the life that is waiting for us.
We've had higher license fees for unaltered dogs for years. What it does is give people who just "don't care" or "don't wanna" get their dogs fixed, a reason to do so.
If you've got a reason to have an unaltered dog, then it becomes part of the cost of doing business.
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