We just got back from 12 days camping. Dogs were great except sometimes the puppy (23 weeks) would get carried away with a few barks when he was playing. Spraying him with water was just ignored (part of the play) and I guess I wasn't really taken seriously when I said "NO!". So I'd roll him (YES I MEAN IT you little punk!) - but of course that stopped the play. How do I get him to not play bark without stopping the play?
Barking when other dogs or people are going by is a piece of cake. There's only the rare time when they bark - usually when someone comes out of the woods or "out of nowhere".
We did have neighbors with a barking dog at one place though. When the owner came back to the trailer we told her that her dog gets pretty upset and barks non-stop when she's away. "Yes I know, but they won't allow dogs at the beach and I really want to go to the beach" was her response!!!!! I returned with "that's really nice for you but not so great for everyone else...". She left for the beach anyway. The next day they figured out a way to take the dog with them. Meanwhile we were walking our dogs around so no-one would think it was one of ours! Great way to meet all the neighbors though (see - there's always a good side).
My 10 mo. old pup does the same thing but it is getting better. The Dog Whisperer said it was a sign of aggression, not play and to pin the dog down until they're calm. In fact, I've done it so much that sometimes she'll lay herself down when she sees me coming. It's hard not to laugh but I don't want an aggressive dog around so I'll keep trying to keep her calm.
Heh! We have a Sheltie. Talk about barking! And spinning and all kinds of that Napoleonic aggression stuff.
Now, my prince is pretty smart, as I think all Shelties are. I've trained him with hand commands, so when I make the Ssshhh... gesture, he quiets, lays down, and does this Sheltie cussing sort of thing....talking, jawing, growling, with an occasional stifled muff in the mix.
I did that though several ways. Some people recommend a bark can - a soda can filled with rocks or marbles, and when the dogs bark you can pitch that (not hard and not at them) near them and they will be distracted from the barking and associate barking with the startle and lessen that behavior.
I wanted ours to bark somewhat because that's what I got him for, so when I took him for training, they recommended ways to make him be more submissive when he gets overstimulated.
I first began by picking him up and rolling him on his back in my arms. Then we graduated to the hand signal of down.
When I wasn't in a position to do that, I would just place my hand on his muzzle and say Quiet. I never did it meanly or firmly - just around his muzzle.
The last thing we worked on was giving him a job, because after all in my dog's breed, his job is to notify me when something's wrong.
So when the doorbell rings, for example, when the spinning and barking and craziness ensues, I have to ask him to greet a "friend" and shake paws - only with Shelties, that doesn't work with men - he just goes nuts if it's a man, and I have to tell him to lay down in the other room and stay.
Occasionally, my husband and my boys rile him up, wrestle and yell help, and my loverboy comes running over and then barks for HOURS on end to let me know everybody's single move. Then it's the boys I have to train, not my dog!
:-)
~Jill~
'06 Jayco 27BH
'08 Ford Expy EL (replaced the '01 GMC Savanna - may she rest in peace)
Middle School Teacher & 1 Hubby, 1 Teen Daughter, 1 Teen Son, and 1 Pre-Teen Son who drive us crazy
1 Sheltie Lots of energy and not a whole lot of time!
lasparrot wrote: So I'd roll him (YES I MEAN IT you little punk!) - but of course that stopped the play.
Well of course it stopped the play. There he was in good ole doggy fashion having a great time, and you went postal on him (for what to his way of thinking would have been absolutely no reason). I bet he was totally confused about what was going on.
I suggest you enroll in a good, positive-reward based obedience class.
Retired Wileys wrote: My 10 mo. old pup does the same thing but it is getting better. The Dog Whisperer said it was a sign of aggression, not play and to pin the dog down until they're calm. In fact, I've done it so much that sometimes she'll lay herself down when she sees me coming. It's hard not to laugh but I don't want an aggressive dog around so I'll keep trying to keep her calm.
I've heard quotes from him that are really, really dumb, but that's the stupidest by far. Boggles my mind that anyone takes this nut seriously. Your puppy's reaction to you is nothing to laugh about. It's quite sad, IMO. What you're doing isn't teaching her to be calm or to not be aggressive (play barking is NOT indicative of aggression at all). You're teaching her to be afraid of you because (in her opinion) you can't be depended on to act rationally. But if that's what you want . . .
Me and the DH
Two boys and two dogs (and two cats who prefer to stay home)
2008 Forest River Georgetown 350DS (bunkhouse model)
2001 Honda CR-V
I have to agree with Pawz4me about the barking (and the dog whisperer). Although ours don't bark when they play, they make a weird growling noise at each other. The Whisperer would say that was aggressive too, I would imagine.
I see the barking and growling during play as a way to "vocalize", just like the hooting and hollering we do when we're playing. If it's not done during times that are not play, then why worry about it?
I worry about it because we are camping and I don't want him disturbing the whole campground! Playing is fine, but barking while playing is not okay.
If saying "NO barking", spraying with a squirt bottle, squeezing his muzzle (not hard) doesn't do it and I shouldn't roll him to make my point then what? I ask this in all seriousness and not to be difficult!
I do try to use positive methods (clicker) and reward when no barking happens when people and/or dogs go by - this works great. However, isn't the play a reward in itself? Next weekend I will try clicking when they are playing quietly and see if that helps. If he was older I'd just put an end to the playing at the campground, but since he's just a pup he needs to get his sillies out - walks just don't get them out right!
I don't feel that he is being aggressive with this barking, my Standard poodle does the same thing sometimes - she jumps along beside her playmate barking as if to say "come on! lets run! lets PLAY". Bella is the LAST do to be aggressive and is the lowest dog aside from the puppy, in our pack of 4.
I have to say I've watched a LOT of Dog Whisperer, and at no time have I ever heard him say "barking during play is aggressive behavior." In fact, quite the contrary, when he's playing with his pack he talks about them barking and getting excited without getting aggressive. Barking as challenging other dogs or humans is another matter, but even then, it isn't always aggressive and he makes this point regularly.
Barking during play can be annoying to human ears, but it is pretty natural behavior, especially in a young dog, and some dogs are more prone to vocalize than others. If you're in a place where you feel you "can't" allow it due to the neighbors, then you have to give them the command you use to cause them to stop playing and settle down. If that doesn't do it, then you'll enforce that, of course, calmly, and its a great time for a long down until everyone is calm again. If you do that every time the pup starts to yap, as soon as the pup starts to yap, you may find the pup starts to yap less often... dogs are masters at associating one event with another. But you'd need to be pretty consistent at it to form that association.
Running in and telling a playing dog to keep playing but cut out a normal (for that dog) part of the play is going to be confusing, however.
One of the things I find most useful with my dogs is to have a command or a sound that lets them know when they've hit their limit. This can be physical, as in "that's far enough out, turn around!" or behavioral. I use an "AAAaaaaaaahht" sound for that with the current lot. "Hey" also has a warning connotation to it. You need to find something that you can spit out readily and that the pup will hear and respect. Positive reinforcement is fine, but in life we have things we want to do that we ought not, and you need a way to tell your pup when that point has been reached.
What I find a little more concerning than what you're complaining about, is that you've got a puppy that you're having to go to a very extreme measure to get its attention in a very un-extreme situation. Putting a dog on the ground is a serious sanction. That's the sort of thing you do for fighting or other outrageous behavior. If you have a pup that's requiring that just to get it to stop playing, I'd suggest you work on getting your pup's respect in other areas of life. Dogs that have respect, regardless of their age, will not ignore you when you correct them. So either your corrections are lacking or you have a respect issue brewing.
One author I really like in dog training is Carol Lea Benjamin. She deals with pack structure and advocates a balanced approach... lots of praise and corrections as needed. Her approach is more accessible to a lot of people than, say, Cesar Millan's might be, and she does a great job of explaining the whys of pack structure as well as the hows and what to look for. "Mother Knows Best" is a good overall book that covers a lot of ground. Worth a read, and you can usually pick it up used on Amazon for a few dollars.
susan
What I want to know is, when are they going to start selling Comfort Zone for HUMANS????? 'Cause some days...
Wow, everybody. I am not talking about a bark that means fun and play. My pup plays, "cheerfully" barks and plays with me all the time but when I tell her no and she barks and comes toward me like she's going to get me I put her on her side and hold her for a few seconds. It is a gentle, soft correction and nothing hateful or dangerous for her. This is nothing compared to what my 71 lb Aussie does to her to pin her down and teach her who is boss. She gets praise for appropriate behavior and is never, never mistreated. This pup has had a rough start in life with a liver shunt and several near death weekends and some of her behavior is caused by toxins in her brain but she is getting better and behaving better all the time. This little one is a valued member of our family.
I would have to agree with some others here - it's pretty natural for your puppy, especially at this age, to want to chime in while playing. I know there are a lot of people in these forums who feels dogs barking can be annoying, but everyone's line of excess differs.
I think if you are concerned about reaching that line that you should not rile your pup up around others you might be concerned about complaining.
When I'm playing with our dog, I allow him to bark, and I know my neighbors have complained, but they complain about everything and HATE dogs.
Sometimes, dogs have to be allowed to be dogs - but you do have to have that command that says stop now, like a previous poster said.
I also found Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor (I think I have it correctly stated there) to be a good dog training book.
Heck, I even use that methodology on my students! :-)
Like I said, when my dog is behaving in a way that is not desirable and the kids or me or the hubby has riled him up, it's my fault for leading him to that behavior.
I learned in my pedagogy training that behavior has ABC's - Antecedent, ALTERNATIVE Behavior (a replacement behavior), and Consequences. If you figure out the Antecedent of the behavior, and alter it in replacing it with a more acceptable behavior, the consequence will be reinforcement of the acceptable behavior and extinguishing of the undesirable behavior.
I think when you roll him over on his back on the ground, that is an acceptable way of saying you're the boss. But you also should develop a signal when you're not next to him in proximity that says, "Ok, enough now."
I replace growling and barking when someone comes up on our site or we approach another dog, but I don't feel I need to stifle my dog when he barks every single time.
I think, especially if you have a higher-strung dog, if you do stifle his vocalization all the time, you might be contributing to that pent up energy also.
Whenever I can, I find dog runs where he can run without a leash. And I usually take him on two long walks a day. But remember, you are the master, and when you walk him, he should also heel, too.
Retired Wileys wrote: Wow, everybody. I am not talking about a bark that means fun and play. My pup plays, "cheerfully" barks and plays with me all the time but when I tell her no and she barks and comes toward me like she's going to get me I put her on her side and hold her for a few seconds. It is a gentle, soft correction and nothing hateful or dangerous for her. This is nothing compared to what my 71 lb Aussie does to her to pin her down and teach her who is boss. She gets praise for appropriate behavior and is never, never mistreated. This pup has had a rough start in life with a liver shunt and several near death weekends and some of her behavior is caused by toxins in her brain but she is getting better and behaving better all the time. This little one is a valued member of our family.
I understand that you think it is a "soft" correction, but it is not. It is a very strong correction, it IS the same correction your aussie uses, even if yours seems "nicer," and your aussie uses it only when other corrections have failed to create the desired effect. Finding an effective way to correct verbally or with a tap on the neck or butt to distract, would be preferable.
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(see - there's always a good side).
