Gary n Vicky wrote: I WAS one that thought I knew better. After all my TV was rated at 7100, my TT was 6900, I was under the max....I am a believer. DON'T TOW WITH AN UNDER RATED TV!!!
Should you be saying "Don't tow with an OVER rated TV?" You didn't exceed any rating (close) and had a problem. Sounds to me like you had one of the many OVER rated tow vehicles on the market, not one of the UNDER rated ones this thread is about.
It sounds like you learned the same lesson I did, we just chose different solutions. I went to the books and learned everything I could about tow vehicle characteristics and bought a slightly smaller, but vastly more capable tow vehicle. The Freestar carries exactly half the rating of the truck it replaced, and I wouldn't go back.
'04 Ford Freestar (Primary tow vehicle) '05 Subaru Forester (Backup tow vehicle) '65 Bethany popup (best popups ever made!) Looking for a tow vehicle Minivan towing
Caddywhompus wrote: Again, certain people on this thread are STILL assuming that they can judge the overall safety of a rig by looking at it. That it must be unsafe if they estimate in their head that the tow vehicle might be pulling more than the sales brochure said it could.
Nothing could be further from the truth, and the sooner you start to include this information in your equation, the sooner you will begin to understand why a Freestar out-pulls, out-stops and out-handles a 3/4 ton pickup truck when tested side by side.
For those that don't know, the image below is a portion of a track-testing experiment conducted by Can-Am RV (Link 1Link 2). The full article explains everything he tested including braking and acceleration. It is not available online in it's complete form. Can-Am does not sell trucks or cars, though they do sell trailers. The owner, Andy Thompson is widely regarded as a towing expert and has a regular column in "RV Lifestyle" magazine and also a call-in radio show. He is most notably known on these forums for finding the truth about tow vehicles regardless what the sales brochure says.
Ah, but like so many tests & statistics, this one is skewed too. All of the TVs in the test were using a Hensley Hitch, so as a result the TV/TT combination behaved properly in every example and the only difference in handling was the handling of the TV. A smaller vehicle has a major advantage in a salom, hence the ability of the Jag, small Chrysler 300M and Freestar to maneuver around cones compared to the Suburban and Chevy pickups. However, if this test had been without the Hensley Hitch as the great TV equalizer, then the results would have been totally different and I'm sure the Freestar and 2 sedans would have been in a ditch at anything approaching those speeds.
* This post was
edited 08/15/08 09:42pm by SteveRankin *
Steve & C. J.
"Gracie" the Rough Collie & "Bo'sun" the Bichon Frise
rolnrolnroln wrote: The folks who take the position that this issue is for the owner of the rig and nobody else's business either have no feelings or haven't throught this through or both.
You are incorrect, at least in my case.
I have thought everything through, and I do have feelings. In fact, I've lost 2 very close people in somewhat recent car accidents and in the last 8 years I've become something of a safety fanatic as a result.
Here's another perspective. I own arguably two of the safest cars on the road, and not by accident. I shopped for both these vehicles and picked them specifically to suit my needs, including towing as required. In other words, I am not "stuck" with too small of a tow vehicle, quite the contrary I traded larger tow vehicles for these two.
Extensive testing has shown remarkable stability and poise from both of these vehicles when towing, safety is not at risk in my case. I have the right equipment, I know how to use it, and I'm experienced enough towing that I can tell when a setup is marginal, mine are not. I wouldn't allow it any other way. In addition, when I'm NOT towing (which is more than 90% of the time) my vehicles are significantly safer than the average full size truck or SUV for BOTH occupants AND other drivers. In other words, I make the roads safer by NOT driving a empty 3/4 ton pickup Monday thru Friday, just so I can claim I have enough tow vehicle on the weekends.
Maybe you should look at BOTH sides of the situation before comparing a minivan owner to someone who is shooting guns out there window. Consider that from the other persepctive I see full-size trucks like Panzer tanks flying down the freeway at 70+ mph. There just isn't any excuse to point the "safety finger" at me from the gun-slit in your armored assault vehicle.
So even if I conceded that a full size truck is a better tow vehicle (which I'm not) it wouldn't excuse the fact that owning one automatically creates a higher risk of injury to others on the road when the vehicle ISN'T towing.
Along that same line of thought, since I'm only towing 10% of the time but safer than a truck owner the other 90%, which vehicle has the largest impact on the overall safety of the roads? Now who is the one making the highways unsafe for others? Should I start intervening when I see strangers driving around empty trucks and letting them know how unsafe they are making to roads for me and mine?
Two of the safest cars on the road? I'm sorry, but not even close. The crash tests that are so popular and so misleading. If you really want to know which vehicles are safer and which are not, you'll study the actual loss data by the Highway Loss Data Institute. I did so when I was in grad school a few years ago.
FYI, the Subaru Forester is one of the safest small SUV's, rating 76 percentile score. 100 = average, so the Subie is about 25% safer than the average small SUV. The Ford Freestar got a similar score of 74. However, when you adjust these stats for all vehicles, you find that they are only about half as safe as a large pickup.
Highway Loss Data Institute wrote: Claim frequencies generally decrease as vehicle size increases. Among 2004-06 models, very large pickups had the lowest claim frequency (48). Mini 4-door cars had the highest (179). Among 2-door and 4-door cars, the relationship between vehicle size and claim frequency was stronger than within other
vehicle groups.
I don't drive a 3/4-ton truck as a daily driver. We use our 1/2-ton truck for that.
rolnrolnroln wrote: The folks who take the position that this issue is for the owner of the rig and nobody else's business either have no feelings or haven't throught this through or both.
You are incorrect, at least in my case.
I have thought everything through, and I do have feelings. In fact, I've lost 2 very close people in somewhat recent car accidents and in the last 8 years I've become something of a safety fanatic as a result.
Here's another perspective. I own arguably two of the safest cars on the road, and not by accident. I shopped for both these vehicles and picked them specifically to suit my needs, including towing as required. In other words, I am not "stuck" with too small of a tow vehicle, quite the contrary I traded larger tow vehicles for these two.
Extensive testing has shown remarkable stability and poise from both of these vehicles when towing, safety is not at risk in my case. I have the right equipment, I know how to use it, and I'm experienced enough towing that I can tell when a setup is marginal, mine are not. I wouldn't allow it any other way. In addition, when I'm NOT towing (which is more than 90% of the time) my vehicles are significantly safer than the average full size truck or SUV for BOTH occupants AND other drivers. In other words, I make the roads safer by NOT driving a empty 3/4 ton pickup Monday thru Friday, just so I can claim I have enough tow vehicle on the weekends.
Maybe you should look at BOTH sides of the situation before comparing a minivan owner to someone who is shooting guns out there window. Consider that from the other persepctive I see full-size trucks like Panzer tanks flying down the freeway at 70+ mph. There just isn't any excuse to point the "safety finger" at me from the gun-slit in your armored assault vehicle.
So even if I conceded that a full size truck is a better tow vehicle (which I'm not) it wouldn't excuse the fact that owning one automatically creates a higher risk of injury to others on the road when the vehicle ISN'T towing.
Along that same line of thought, since I'm only towing 10% of the time but safer than a truck owner the other 90%, which vehicle has the largest impact on the overall safety of the roads? Now who is the one making the highways unsafe for others? Should I start intervening when I see strangers driving around empty trucks and letting them know how unsafe they are making to roads for me and mine?
Two of the safest cars on the road? I'm sorry, but not even close. The crash tests that are so popular and so misleading. If you really want to know which vehicles are safer and which are not, you'll study the actual loss data by the Highway Loss Data Institute. I did so when I was in grad school a few years ago.
FYI, the Subaru Forester is one of the safest small SUV's, rating 76 percentile score. 100 = average, so the Subie is about 25% safer than the average small SUV. The Ford Freestar got a similar score of 74. However, when you adjust these stats for all vehicles, you find that they are only about half as safe as a large pickup.
Highway Loss Data Institute wrote: Claim frequencies generally decrease as vehicle size increases. Among 2004-06 models, very large pickups had the lowest claim frequency (48). Mini 4-door cars had the highest (179). Among 2-door and 4-door cars, the relationship between vehicle size and claim frequency was stronger than within other
vehicle groups.
I don't drive a 3/4-ton truck as a daily driver. We use DW's 1/2-ton truck for that.
FYI, she bought a 2007 Subaru Forester in March. In May we took a quick run to Oregon to watch Northwood build our Arctic Fox. It was awful. See, I injured my neck in the fire service and a bouncy ride messes it up badly. That quick trip put my neck into a tailspin that it took over a month to recover from. In June, we made the exact same trip back to the factory with the Arctic Fox in tow behind our 3/4-ton 4X4 and the ride was great. Besides, we had a helluva time fitting our stuff into the Subie.
rolnrolnroln wrote: The folks who take the position that this issue is for the owner of the rig and nobody else's business either have no feelings or haven't throught this through or both.
You are incorrect, at least in my case.
I have thought everything through, and I do have feelings. In fact, I've lost 2 very close people in somewhat recent car accidents and in the last 8 years I've become something of a safety fanatic as a result.
Here's another perspective. I own arguably two of the safest cars on the road, and not by accident. I shopped for both these vehicles and picked them specifically to suit my needs, including towing as required. In other words, I am not "stuck" with too small of a tow vehicle, quite the contrary I traded larger tow vehicles for these two.
(snip)
So even if I conceded that a full size truck is a better tow vehicle (which I'm not) it wouldn't excuse the fact that owning one automatically creates a higher risk of injury to others on the road when the vehicle ISN'T towing.
(snip)
Two of the safest cars on the road? I'm sorry, but not even close. The crash tests that are so popular and so misleading. If you really want to know which vehicles are safer and which are not, you'll study the actual loss data by the Highway Loss Data Institute. I did so when I was in grad school a few years ago.
FYI, the Subaru Forester is one of the safest small SUV's, rating 76 percentile score. 100 = average, so the Subie is about 25% safer than the average small SUV. The Ford Freestar got a similar score of 74. However, when you adjust these stats for all vehicles, you find that they are only about half as safe as a large pickup.
Highway Loss Data Institute wrote: Claim frequencies generally decrease as vehicle size increases. Among 2004-06 models, very large pickups had the lowest claim frequency (48). Mini 4-door cars had the highest (179). Among 2-door and 4-door cars, the relationship between vehicle size and claim frequency was stronger than within other
vehicle groups.
I don't drive a 3/4-ton truck as a daily driver. We use DW's 1/2-ton truck for that.
FYI, she bought a 2007 Subaru Forester in March. In May we took a quick run to Oregon to watch Northwood build our Arctic Fox. It was awful. See, I injured my neck in the fire service and a bouncy ride messes it up badly. That quick trip put my neck into a tailspin that it took over a month to recover from. In June, we made the exact same trip back to the factory with the Arctic Fox in tow behind our 3/4-ton 4X4 and the ride was great. Besides, we had a helluva time fitting our stuff into the Subie.
Now, if you still think your Freestar or Subie is as good a TV as my Chevy 2500HD Duramax, let's hitch up our Arctic Fox and see how well it tows.
As for the self-rightous anti-truck attitude, I could do without it. I've owned lots of small cars, but I don't believe in taking a knife to a gun fight.
SteveRankin wrote: Cooling systems on modern cars are poorly suited to towing
On the contrary. Most/many modern car are built with smallish, yet powerful aluminum engines. Aluminum disapates heat very quickly so less heat to deal with is a good thing when talking about TV/s.
I am aware of many tests/cases where modern cars (in stock form with no mods) towed at close to 5x their tow rating in hot weather, with the air conditioning on and the temperature guage remained at normal.
Yes, aluminum does transfer heat quickly, but that's only about 20% of the cooling of the engine. The crowded engine compartment of today's modern car doesn't allow more much more heat transfer than goes on normally. Many cars have big problems with excess heat under the hood and premature electrical problems due to cooked insulation on wiring harness.
Another point. If aluminum was a key to engine cooling, then how come so many aluminum engines are ruined when subjected to cooling system problems that an iron engine would have shrugged off?
Don't get to thinking I'm against aluminum engines. DW's F150 has a bunch of aluminum, as does my Duramax, our Jeep Grand Cherokee and her old 560SL were all aluminum. Nice engines, but like in so many other areas, aluminum is not a magical answer.
It's not hard to create a test where a car tows several times its rating without a problem any more than Chevy pulls a freight car weighing over 100,000# with a pickup.
Pull a grade at WOT and see what happens. A truck or SUV with an upright radiator can run at WOT pulling a heavy load up a long grade without overheating that would send a sedan with the SAME engine to the shoulder to cool off.
Caddywhompus wrote: Again, certain people on this thread are STILL assuming that they can judge the overall safety of a rig by looking at it. That it must be unsafe if they estimate in their head that the tow vehicle might be pulling more than the sales brochure said it could.
Nothing could be further from the truth, and the sooner you start to include this information in your equation, the sooner you will begin to understand why a Freestar out-pulls, out-stops and out-handles a 3/4 ton pickup truck when tested side by side.
For those that don't know, the image below is a portion of a track-testing experiment conducted by Can-Am RV (Link 1Link 2). The full article explains everything he tested including braking and acceleration. It is not available online in it's complete form. Can-Am does not sell trucks or cars, though they do sell trailers. The owner, Andy Thompson is widely regarded as a towing expert and has a regular column in "RV Lifestyle" magazine and also a call-in radio show. He is most notably known on these forums for finding the truth about tow vehicles regardless what the sales brochure says.
A smaller vehicle has a major advantage in a salom, hence the ability of the Jag, small Chrysler 300M
The test shows a Chrysler 300C, not 300M. Also FYI, the 300C is not really a "small" car with available Hemi v8 power. I realize power is not the only factor for towing performance, but I think you may have been confusing the 300C with the previous 300M.
In any event this thread has been very interesting to read. As usual the "weight police" types who think that anything smaller than a 3/4 ton or larger truck is simply just another car,(I still can't figure out what makes my 1/2 ton a not a truck ) are at one end of the scale, and the minivan and small car towers are at the other end of the scale. I doubt one group will ever convince the other, but I enjoy reading the debate anyway!
2005 Surveyor SV-291 Tows smooth as silk!
1995 Dodge Ram 1500 Laramie SLT 4x4 5.9L V8 low miles, It ain't pretty, but it's paid for!
Hi: I've seen the tail wagging the dog any number of times but I don't feel any obligation to educate the people I see in this situation. If they were smart or cared at all, they would find out all they could about their rigs and how to use them.The economics of reparing the rig will eventually take care of the education. However, there's a huge number of people out there who know a lot about their rigs and it is much more engaging and interesting to visit with them. Bill
I spent several months researching towing before purchasing our trailer (much of this research was done on this forum). While I compromised on the final trailer selection I feel safer when we are out on the road. Ultimately my decision was based on what I felt was safe for my family. It has all worked out and we've made many great memories. The trailer tows well and we've never had and issues or 'scares.'
IMHO consider your loved ones when you make your decision.
Me, my wife and two young boys
2001 Chevy Suburban 1500, 5.3L, 4.10
Crossroads Zinger ZT-270-BH The Camping Machine
Weight questions always bring all the opinions out in full force.
-I've never yet seen an RV on the road that was loaded over legal limits, never. No, not ever.
-I've heard of and seen a lot more accidents involving Semi Tractor/Trailer's than RV's. RV'ers have an incredibly safe track record with all these (overloaded according to someones opinion) weights.
-The most skilled driver running under legal limits but over the manufacturer's recommendations is far far safer to us all than an unskilled driver running under the manufacturer's recommendations. Weight really means nothing, it's the drivers ability to safely handle it that matters.
-Semi's are not safe, even though they are under the legal weight limits. It's the drivers that make them safe or unsafe.
Please, guy's guy's guy's....look at the big picture. A safe arrival to your destination is so much more than weight. I am seeing RV'ers as a whole be extremely safe out there on the roads with very little incidence. Let's stop the judgements, huh? Talking about putting others at risk, taking chances, driving unsafe means nothing when the safety record is so high overall.
On a fun note...if you just can't see it this way, well then let me know where you are camping next and I'll try to come pulling in next to you some night. At least you will have something to REALLY talk about! HA, ha! Appreciate you all, your a great bunch. RV'ing is a wonderful thing. Let's be aware and always within our skill limits out there.
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) are at one end of the scale, and the minivan and small car towers are at the other end of the scale. I doubt one group will ever convince the other, but I enjoy reading the debate anyway!
