I think this discussion is right on the money in demonstrating what is wrong w/ capitalism w/r to the observation that the very few are enriched on the backs of the many, and the benefits drawn from the land, labor, and capital are increasingly going to the few. The ever-amplifying disparity between the two is starting to smell.
Pro-capitalists will counter that capitalism is the only choice for the planet and that it is the greatest builder of wealth ever known by mankind, for mankind. And so, again the question arises, ‘Why do we see such a global disparity between the haves and the have-nots?’
Can capitalism ever bring prosperity to all instead of only a few?
I’ll take my answer off the air.
Granted there are some major problems with capitalism, but what alternative would one have?
I think what we have (Capitalism) is probably better than anything else in any country. Greed however, can destroy so many things and capitalism is not immune from it.
It is up to the general public to educate themselves on what is actually going on (not who's on American Idol or some wrestling nut job) but pay attention to what their leaders are actually saying and doing, and not just follow blindly. Only we can stop the madness that occurs in this country and if we are apathetic or too lazy to get involved, we can only resort to complaining and waiting for something to change..... and change it will, not necessarily for the better. Promises of change do not put money in your pocket or food on your table, but the rhetoric sure sounds good.
I am amazed that the people in a controlled dictatorship such as Iran are fighting for their freedoms, sometimes being killed by their own leaders..... while we turn a blind eye to the disappearing of our freedoms and the lack of control over our own lives.
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edited 07/24/09 06:22pm by an administrator/moderator *
I think sometimes we forget that the freedoms we have are freedoms not because of celebrities. The freedoms are because of ordinary people who did extraordinary things, who loved this country more than life itself.
I think capitalism is the ONLY system that offers an opportunity for all. Don't make the mistake of condemning the system because of the failings of some folks. Deal with the people who do bad things not the system within which they operate. The folks who created the sub-prime mess (both the sellers and the takers of those loans) should be dealt with for example.
I offer the following semi-farout example. If we want to eliminate bank robbers, do we eliminate banks or catch the robbers?
I think we have come to a point where we hesitate to put the blame on individuals and rather want to deal with systems.
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macira wrote: I think capitalism is the ONLY system that offers an opportunity for all. Don't make the mistake of condemning the system because of the failings of some folks. Deal with the people who do bad things not the system within which they operate. The folks who created the sub-prime mess (both the sellers and the takers of those loans) should be dealt with for example.
I offer the following semi-farout example. If we want to eliminate bank robbers, do we eliminate banks or catch the robbers?
I think we have come to a point where we hesitate to put the blame on individuals and rather want to deal with systems.
You're right again, Mac.
Capitalism is the only system in which the "little guy" has any options.
I did /do not condemn anything. I pointed out excesses with severe backlash because the 'haves' wanted 'more.'
Flagrant excess, flaunted too long, there will be repercussions.
eg: Boston Tea party, Quartering Act, Sugar Act, Stamp Act.
Ok, so the Romanovs got really severe repercussions and no one should be executed in the woods and buried in a ditch. But they did /ordered those very things themselves.
Make it right? Nope. Makes it understandable, though.
And you're right again about individual abuse. Yet the obverse of that is individual privilege. So why wasn't Madoff in jail right away --regular person (like you or me) would have been.
How come there have been no repercussions for the folks who ran the bailed-out institutions into the ground?
Most of 'em still have their jobs.
If either of us had claimed a questionable tax deduction, we'd be in jail so fast.
You bet those sleazeball mortgage brokers oughtta be dealt with.
Like: "here, you get minimum wage, fix that woman's roof because your department was in charge of stockbroker oversights and you missed her. Since she cannot afford a roof because of your individual oversight, this is a wrecking hammer. Have fun and remember to hydrate."
No, you don't abolish the buildings themselves, but you do make sure to make it very, very difficult for the bank robbers (in or outside) to access what is not theirs.
See, the those buggers didn't just steal from 2-income, working poor people, they stole from you and me. Personally, individually. We are all now hit with goofy banking fees to make up a shortfall they themselves caused.
As a result of their greed & its resultant "credit crunch," we can't buy new motorhomes or count on that $5000 line of credit for emergency purposes.
I have no problem with rich people or successful people.
I do have a problem with short-sighted, malicious, greedy people.
Not my fault that most of them work on Wall Street.
Trish..I suspect that many who work on wall street are just the folks who do as they are told. I had a neighbor who was a Jr Mortgage broker. He wasa nice kid, but could be outsmarted by a turnip, I doubt he had any real idea of what he was doing other than as he was told.
There were and are folks involved in this mess who are surely the "bad guys", we need to catch 'em and put them on the rock-pile. There are however those who are like the "factory floor" folks, just the ones who do as they are told.
macira wrote: Trish.... There were and are folks involved in this mess who are surely the "bad guys", we need to catch 'em and put them on the rock-pile.Yes, I think it's "economic treason", and treason is punishable by death. We should pursue these guys like Isreal did war criminals after WWII. There are however those who are like the "factory floor" folks, just the ones who do as they are told. That didn't work out too well for guys like Goebbels and Goering--innocent or not.
Edit: corrected "Goering" typo.
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edited 07/24/09 05:54pm by traxtermax *
Traxtermax..I think you maybe missed the point about a lot of folks involved in the sub-prime and other messes. The "factory floor" type folks had and have no real guilt they were neither informed nor educated enough to understand the issues at hand. They deserve no punishment.
Never did I mean that innocent people should be punished but my hastily written post didn't make that clear.
I meant that when persons cause grievous harm to many others or a system, they should be held accountable and claims of innocence or “I was following orders” aren’t successful defenses.
The money mongers took our system to the brink because they didn’t say “NO” to those who wanted more than they could afford. Instead, they loaned money to those who couldn’t pay it back, then sold the paper. Maybe it’s a good idea to have a policy that states, “You loan it you own it”.
I don’t think we’ve learned anything. TARP funds are divvied out without any apparent rules and oversight; then all of a sudden, when CEO salaries are regulated, they can pay off all the TARP funds with interest—presumably to free themselves from government control. This really makes me wonder if they needed any funds at all. Some of these guys, to put it mildly, should be taken to task.
I don’t think “things” will ever return to normal; closing the gate on an empty corral is useless and if we “survive”, it can happen again without some type of regulation.
Uncontrolled greed seems to be capitalism’s Achilles heel.
TRAXTERMAX I think uncontrolled greed is the Achilles heel of any economic system. How to control it is a real problem, I think perhaps the answer lies in instilling morals from birth, not a quick fix, but one that would work and last. Governments of all kinds over time have proven unable to do it.
Somehow we managed to contain it until recently, and some manage their greed better than others--that's why we need specific laws. For those without morals, laws are in place to help provide the things their parents didn't.
Geeze Mac, things have been working for 50+ years. Why do we have a major problem now?
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