As long as we keep buying the products offered the mfg will keep producing there units cheap and substandard with a high profit margin. We can piss and moan all we want, but unless they are hit heavily in the pocket (ie- loss sales, lawsuits, etc.) there is very little incentive for them to change their practices. I think it's obvious that a far better product can be designed and built but most are unfortunately willing to accept what's offered now. All the money they spend in warranty claims is probably only a small fraction of what it would cost them to do it right, especially considering TC's are only a very small portion of the rv industry with small sales volume comparitively, and the warranty ultimately expires anyway so then your on your own. And when they do service a unit outside of warranty they usually receive great praise by the owner, making the company look good for fixing a problem that never should have happened in the first place. Bottom line is nobody is forcing them to change. Isn't RVing great !!!
Sticky
* This post was
edited 10/18/09 06:46am by stickyeye *
1150 AF Truck Camper, gen-set, pretty well loaded
Torklifts, superhitch w/48" extension, firestone air bags, energy suspension bump stops, fast guns
2005 Ram Quad Cab 3500 Dually. CTD, auto, 4.10's
lwahls wrote: Why in the 21st century are they using materials that rot?
And that is the $32,634 question. (Not including tax & license)
It's strange because even if they didn't change a thing in design or sloppy construction, they could have staved off rot in my camper for many years by simply painting critical areas (such as corners and downhill of openings) with anti-rot treatment. It would have cost pennies to add to my camper. In fact, I've got some I've used for years on non pressure treated lumber with great success. You can even use the stuff to create fence posts.
There are soooooo many ways to prevent, reduce or slow down rot that there really is no excuse.
lwahls wrote: LEAKS ARE DUE TO SLOPPY DESIGN AND SLOPPY CONSTRUCTION!!!!!
Correcto! My photos throughout this thread present irrefutable evidence of this. And again, even if they didn't change a thing, 50% of what I'm seeing could have been prevented by a combination of better quality control, and in some cases simple training of the workers.
I've written extensively on how this happens and likely reasons why it remains true in this industry. These are old school companies that are struggling and will continue to struggle because their Cost Of Quality is high. Unfortunately, from what I've read in this forum from time to time, even some of their own customers defend the poor quality and fear change. It appears that many fear that improved quality, better material selection and modernized manufacturing methods would drive up the price of campers. But in reality, the opposite is true.
I've been heavily involved in major improvement projects within wide variety of industries and I have yet to see any price increase due to increased efficiency, better production techniques and significantly improved quality. It is true that most of the time companies did not decrease the product price for customers but instead used greater profit margin to invest in new products or yet more efficiency. They were also able to keep prices stable for longer periods of time than their competition.
But every single time, I got at least some resistance from people who were afraid - some to the point of sabotaging the effort. The camper industry is the first where I've witnessed actual customers resisting it.
As long as camper manufacturers have people defending their poor quality while most simply tolerate it and don't speak up, there is little perceived reason to change - even as they put themselves out of business with their practices. Many continue to survive simply because the barrier to entry is high and the choices are relatively few.
---------------- Update: I now have most of the nose cone taken apart. Only the walls remain.
I've kept the bed as a template in case I want to copy it - simply replacing everything with better material, but I've also come across some unique composite sandwich materials I may experiment with instead. Some of this stuff might eliminate the need for much labor at all; just cut to size, bolt into place, and cover with Filon.
BTW: As I took it apart I found yet more jaw-dropping quality and design issues. So many in fact, I won't bother to post them here.
Well, except for one that is kind of humorous in a pathetic way: They ran out of the right length of Styrofoam for the radius on the nose cone so they simply stuffed the gap with scraps. Another section wasn't quite the correct thickness and looked suspiciously like packaging material. I happen to have a box with similar looking packaging material still in it in my basement so I compared: Identical.
Cardboard, tape, and scraps of garbage. Nice camper!
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Seymour Wrought
Rebuilding my rotting 03 Arctic Fox 1150 that was made of cardboard, tape & scraps of garbage.
01 F350 dually 4X4
Rancho 9000, Air bags, Roadmaster sway bar
Torklift/Fastguns, Lance cabover struts, (un)Happi jacks, Homemade jack stabilizers
Great Article. I just returned from a weekend trip and found I have delamination on the nose of my camper (06 Artic Fox - 811). We have only used it about 10 times for weekend trips. Probably no need to contact Artic Fox. I will get a tarp today and cover to help stop the problem, I am semi-retiring in a couple of months, will give me some time to work on it. I too will have to provide a shelter, camper is to big to get into my garage.
So much money for so little quality, keep up the topic, has been so much help and learning experiences for so many. Keep the photos comming, best of all helps us all.
B.Pettitt
Dodge, lwb, drw, 6.7, no mods
Arctic Fox 811
22' sunchaser fishing pontoon
97 Wranger for mountian roads
When shopping last week, I saw an Artic Fox in the store parking lot with bubbles in the Felon. They were on both sides, above the front camper jacks. I did not look at it up close.
I wonder if the delam issue is as common as this thread makes it appear? I also wonder if it is more common on an Artic Fox than other TCs with Filon?
Jeepers92 wrote: Great Article. I just returned from a weekend trip and found I have delamination on the nose of my camper (06 Artic Fox - 811). We have only used it about 10 times for weekend trips. Probably no need to contact Artic Fox. I will get a tarp today and cover to help stop the problem, I am semi-retiring in a couple of months, will give me some time to work on it. I too will have to provide a shelter, camper is to big to get into my garage.
So much money for so little quality, keep up the topic, has been so much help and learning experiences for so many. Keep the photos comming, best of all helps us all.
You've used it TEN times?! Whoa. You're way overdue for an overhaul.
My tarp system has worked out OK so far. I laid 2X6s across the roof in a grid pattern so they hang out 6' and then put a rim around them and laid 2 huge tarps on top - and tied the livin' krp out of them so the wind won't take it away. It essentially creates a huge eve all around the camper. It's so far held up in some of the most violent and sustained warm downpours I've ever seen here. (62 deg in October)
I'll keep taking pictures of my progress as I move along but I've been slowed recently by a host of other issues. I also think it would probably help if I was to set up a blog spot or web page so people can see the photos and notes without having to scan through the whole thread and get caught up in the good, but off-topic discussions. It could be a place to put other people's fix suggestions too - and there have been many really good ones. (I think camper owners are required to be tinkerers - and some of these guys are tinkerers extraordinaire!)
Reddog1 wrote: When shopping last week, I saw an Artic Fox in the store parking lot with bubbles in the Felon. They were on both sides, above the front camper jacks. I did not look at it up close.
I wonder if the delam issue is as common as this thread makes it appear? I also wonder if it is more common on an Artic Fox than other TCs with Filon?
Wayne
Well, we do indeed have to be careful with complaints of campers in forums because it is often where people with problems come for advice. However, in this particular case, I bet the problem is very common - at least among the units that are built the same way as mine - because I doubt most people know what to look for . Most of the design and quality issues have nothing to do with maintenance and doomed this camper from day 1. There is simply no way I could have known about them unless I knew what to look for.
The new ones may not have this particular delam problem - but unless major improvements have been made in quality, they still may have the page long list of other quality problems I've had. (This delam issues is only the latest - and greatest - of them all.)
I recall hearing of many brands with this problem - but they appear to be more isolated & sporatic. Except perhaps for the Lance campers. Similar year Lances appear to have the identical problem caused by the identical set of leak issues. But there appears to be one major advantage with many of the Lances I've seen: They don't appear to have the cardboard interface mine has.
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The most dangerous thing I've found as I've taken this apart is the trim tucked under the jack mounts that directs water straight into the screw holes and untreated wood. This resulted in both delamination as well as rotting of the corners and thus weakening of the jacks. Without the rot, the corners are weak and there were some very serious quality issues I found (I posted photos of this earlier). With the rot, they are downright dangerous.
I will continue to post this in all related threads and hope others will pass this on to all AF owners:
Check you jack mounts to see if the vinyl screw covers on the trim are tucked under the jack mounts. If they are, immediately cut them at this point! Then remove the mounts and carefully inspect for rot. Chances are high there is indeed rot in the corners that must be addressed - especially in the front jacks which carry the greatest load.
The rot picture in my last post was caused by this:
Pictures of Arctic Fox poor design tie-down system.
Noticed a camper outside a bar in Packwood, WA in April 2008, the camper was sitting crooked on the truck, the bed of the truck was severely damaged and the driver's side camper tie down was pulled out (yep, Arctic Fox). Apparently, the front left tie-down pulled out when crossing the Columbia near Vantage, WA (heavy wind). Not only was his camper (2003 990) messed up but when the tie down pulled out the chain from the spring loaded system hit his truck's back window and and broke that. The truck bed was also way out of wack and I'm sure his truck had thousands of $$$ of damage (does't take much these days). Wish I had taken pictures of the truck and tie down system. Very poorly constructed and no meat to the system. Decided that Arctic Fox was no longer on my list for a new camper anymore. My older S&S had a much better system and cost a lot less.
I met the owner in bar he was parked outside of. Needless to say he was getting drunk .
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 4X4 CC/LB, Rancho RS9000 with controller
Air Lift air bags with compressor, Hellwig sway bar, Vision 19.5 wheels with Toyo M608Z, Eagle Cap 1050 with on board generator, A/C and Honda EU2000
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