mark1228 wrote: So Cedarhil, they removed the $500.00 from the sale price as you asked, then when there was a mistake on the paperwork that you did not pay for, you accused them of charging you $2000.00/hour to do the paperwork in a very bad mood? You even suggested they should "refund" you the $500.00 doc fee that you really didnt pay.....seems as this is very "deceptive" as well. jmho
No, they did not remove the phoney $500 fee from the sale price. If you take the sales contract they wrote up at face value, they reduced the price of the vehicle itself but still charged me the $500 documentation fee. They knew good and well I was about to walk out the door because of the deception. My guess is they were just trying to save face rather than admit the fee was just a sneaky way to squeeze more profit.
After the salesman and I agreed on a bottom line price, I went into a finance person's office while he filled out paperwork and wasted an extras 30 minutes of my time trying to convince me to buy an ultra high profit (for them) off brand extended warranty. The time he spent on preparation of necessary paperwork was less than 15 minutes. That comes out to over $2000 an hour.
Of course I was in a bad mood. I had just spent 30 minutes driving to the courthouse and over an hour standing in line as a complete waste of time because my $2000/hour finance man couldn't spell my name the same on multiple pieces of paper. I was in an even worse mood when the girl at the front desk told me I would have to wait a long time for them to correct the problem.
Demanding the $500 wasn't a serious request and it certainly wasn't deceptive. It was, in fact, an insult directed at the GM for insisting on keeping the phoney $500 doc fee line item in the business contract and then screwing up the paperwork anyway.
Normally, I am the easiest person in the world to do business with. I treat everyone with the utmost in honesty and integrity. I am one of the few people who realizes that every company needs to make a profit to stay in business and sell me stuff in the future. I do not begrudge $500 or more (sometimes much more) in profit. I just want people to be straight with me.
* This post was
edited 12/17/11 10:43pm by Cedarhill *
They reduced the price of the vehicle by the same amount as the doc fee you refused to pay, therefore they did not charge you a doc fee. You didn't pay a doc fee. Is amazes me that you noticed the "line items" on the paperwork but YOU didn't catch your name spelled wrong at the time you did the paperwork since you spent so much time in the finance office anyway.
Don't get me wrong, doc fees are a joke. But making a dealer reduce the price of the vehicle by the same amount as the doc fee so your out the door price stays the same, then blowing a gasket and demanding they pay you the doc fee that you really didn't pay back is no better than asking to be paid the doc fee in the first place.
In many States, the amount of the DOC fee a dealer charges is regulated by the DMV. The amount allowed varies widely from state to state and I have seen anywhere from $75 to $500 legislated.
Also in many States,the law mandates that if one person pays, all people must pay. That is the reason that when challenged, the dealer may reduce the total sales price by the DOC amount but still show it on the contract.
In all reality, there is in many States a real cost of doing business that the DOC fee is designed to cover. That is no different than collecting sales tax for the State and complying with a myriad of rules and regulations dealing with the handling of paperwork involved in the transaction. Generally, a dealership will have a title clerk who deals with preparing the necessary forms and accounting for the tax collection for the State. In many cases there is a runner who takes the paper work to the DMV and buys a new license or transfers the old one as well as transferring title. The clerk also handles making payoffs on any trade, filing liens for any financing, and several other tasks involved in transferring ownership. There is postage involved, usually, moving around paperwork. Ultimately, the dealer is then responsible to maintain hard copies of this paperwork, usually for seven years, that can become a financial burden.
I would agree with others that refuse to pay outrageous DOC fees that can be as much as $1,000. They are misleading and a way to pad the bottom line in a devious manner. On the other hand, I have agreed to reasonable fees ($100-150) as they are a legitimate cost of purchase just like sales tax and licensing fees. Even Ford and GM have come to agree with DOC fees as legitimate on Employee purchases as long as they are limited to about a $100.
Let's see...
"Reasonable fee" to prepare the paperwork...
OK, let's assume that the dealer does not have to arrange financing.
Let's also assume that the dealer (as is factual in Montana) does not have to do any DMV licensing and registration paperwork.
So, the dealer has to fill in the blanks on the title or the Certificate Of Origin; has to fill in the blanks on the odometer report, has to fill in the blanks on the purchase agreement, then has to send the papers to the courthouse (which he does perhaps once a week). For this 15 to 30 minutes of work by the Title Clerk, he gets $100 to $150 or more. If he sells 20 vehicles per day, that is a pretty good profit margin, when you compare the cost of the title clerks wages and benefits to the income generated!
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Doc fees are not a scam. Now the amount charged maybe usury, but the fact that a dealer charges a fee to handle the excessive amount of paper work necessary to complete a sale is not illegal. Banks have charged doc fees for century's on mortgages etc. Some states actually have written into law the amount that can be charged as a doc fee. If you think about it, it is not 100% profit, as some one or ones have to handle all the paper work and that in itself is time consuming and costly to a dealer.
Like anything else you negotiate the price of what you are buying so you can attempt to negotiate doc fees.
Tallyo
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I have a great relationship with my GM dealer. Inegotiated a "bottom line" figure and they stuck to that. They did, however, separate out the monies into the various categories including $75 for processing fees (on a $59K truck). How they divvy up the money is of no concern to me. If I complained about the fee, I'm sure the money would have shown up elsewhere and I don't mind paying it. I don'tknow how much CW charged us on the new 5er as DW bought it.
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By the way a tip collected when you walk through the door feels more like a cover charge to me. Tips are to be earned.
A lot of people don't realize that the amount in the "additional tip" line can be negative. If they automatically add 18% and you feel that amount is excessive, add a negative amount to get to where you think it should be.
I tested this theory once in a place that had really crappy service. No pre-added tip, but I tipped $-0.52 on a $18.52 bill and my card was charged $18.00 even.
That said, I'm generally a good tipper. But I also do match the tip with the service, good or bad.
tallyo wrote: Doc fees are not a scam. Now the amount charged maybe usury, but the fact that a dealer charges a fee to handle the excessive amount of paper work necessary to complete a sale is not illegal. Banks have charged doc fees for century's on mortgages etc. Some states actually have written into law the amount that can be charged as a doc fee. If you think about it, it is not 100% profit, as some one or ones have to handle all the paper work and that in itself is time consuming and costly to a dealer.
Like anything else you negotiate the price of what you are buying so you can attempt to negotiate doc fees.
If you arrange for your own financing or pay cash, you get a receipt and a title. I am not aware of anything filed at the court house, so again...what are they documenting? For those who think this is acceptable, pay on, I'm sure they really appreciate it.
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