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 > Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

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Supreme Oppressor

Grande Prairie, Alberta

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Posted: 03/18/12 11:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If the bio-fuel is breaking down and corroding pipelines, what does it do to vehicles, especially if it sits for a while? I wonder if this may be a source of some of the rust found in the failed fuel systems of the 6.4 that are getting warranty denials.


2006 F350 6.0 diesel cc lb srw
2004 Jayco Jayflight 30.5BHS

ksss

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Posted: 03/18/12 01:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Supreme Oppressor wrote:

If the bio-fuel is breaking down and corroding pipelines, what does it do to vehicles, especially if it sits for a while? I wonder if this may be a source of some of the rust found in the failed fuel systems of the 6.4 that are getting warranty denials.


Here is an update on the friend in ND that had his 2011 6.7 KR go down. Ford refused to cover the warranty on the fuel injection system. Somehow he was able to get the fuel provider to cover the cost of the repair. Not sure of the details but apparently there was indications of corrosion in the fuel system, not sure of what exactly that was from. Cost was 15K. He fixed the KR and traded in on a Denali. Not sure why any needs such a truck as a farm truck but apparently they are making alot more money now than when I was around there, but thats another discussion.


2006 GMC 3500 CC 4X4 D/A
2013 Fuzion 342
2011 RZR Desert Tan
2012 Sea Doo GTX 155
2005 GMC 5500 CC 4X4 D/A
2012 Chevy 2500HD 4X4 6.0 3.73


BenK

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Posted: 03/18/12 03:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Think we are at a fork in the road here...that will continue to re-join down the road

All of the discussions has been on the extreme PSI issue and for me, on the cam &
follower. With some association with the brew

That then or now forks on that brew...bio-diesel, H2O, organic amines, etc

Now ask if the brew would be as much of an issue if that extremely high PSI
spot were not such a high PSI issue?

Think it will and already is a parallel road to failure of this system
Also think both parallel and exacerbates that extremely high PSI issue

Since not a diesel guy, has there always been an issue with H2O and
what were/are the failure mechanisms?

NewsW

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Posted: 03/18/12 03:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ben:

One key issue.

There can be multiple failure modes at work, with all the failure being tagged in the lot.

Sometimes, it is important to keep all the paths open --- and not try to seek a single cause until it is reasonably sure.

NinerBikes

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Posted: 03/18/12 04:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Does North Dakota mandate biodiesel blends? Seems everything mandated about fuel by our government causes us grief with our diesels. I remember 1993 and LSD being mandated by CARB, and instantly, in a tankful, I had an Audi 5000 Turbodiesel and a 1988 7.3 Intl /Navistar with leaking seals on the pumps, less aromatics, and the seals weeped like a sieve on both of them. both Stanadyne and Bosch pumps seals failed in the same week. Just saying... fuel changes and refining formula changes aren't always good for the end user.





NewsW

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Posted: 03/18/12 06:24pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Organic acids:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_acid

Most common group is:

http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/virttxtjml/crbacid1.htm


Quote:

Reactivity
Reactions of Carboxylic Acids
1. Salt Formation

Because of their enhanced acidity, carboxylic acids react with bases to form ionic salts, as shown in the following equations. In the case of alkali metal hydroxides and simple amines (or ammonia) the resulting salts have pronounced ionic character and are usually soluble in water. Heavy metals such as silver, mercury and lead form salts having more covalent character (3rd example), and the water solubility is reduced, especially for acids composed of four or more carbon atoms.

RCO2H + NaHCO3 RCO2(–) Na(+) + CO2 + H2O
RCO2H + (CH3)3N: RCO2(–) (CH3)3NH(+)
RCO2H + AgOH RCO2?(-) Ag?(+) + H2O

Carboxylic acids and salts having alkyl chains longer than six carbons exhibit unusual behavior in water due to the presence of both hydrophilic (CO2) and hydrophobic (alkyl) regions in the same molecule. Such molecules are termed amphiphilic (Gk. amphi = both) or amphipathic. Depending on the nature of the hydrophilic portion these compounds may form monolayers on the water surface or sphere-like clusters, called micelles, in solution.
2. Substitution of the Hydroxyl Hydrogen

This reaction class could be termed electrophilic substitution at oxygen, and is defined as follows (E is an electrophile). Some examples of this substitution are provided in equations (1) through (4).
RCO2–H + E(+) RCO2–E + H(+)

If E is a strong electrophile, as in the first equation, it will attack the nucleophilic oxygen of the carboxylic acid directly, giving a positively charged intermediate which then loses a proton. If E is a weak electrophile, such as an alkyl halide, it is necessary to convert the carboxylic acid to the more nucleophilic carboxylate anion to facilitate the substitution. This is the procedure used in reactions 2 and 3. Equation 4 illustrates the use of the reagent diazomethane (CH2N2) for the preparation of methyl esters. This toxic and explosive gas is always used as an ether solution (bright yellow in color). The reaction is easily followed by the evolution of nitrogen gas and the disappearance of the reagent's color. This reaction is believed to proceed by the rapid bonding of a strong electrophile to a carboxylate anion.
The nature of SN2 reactions, as in equations 2 & 3, has been described elsewhere. The mechanisms of reactions 1 & 4 will be displayed by clicking the "Toggle Mechanism" button below the diagram.



Alkynes may also serve as electrophiles in substitution reactions of this kind, as illustrated by the synthesis of vinyl acetate from acetylene. Intramolecular carboxyl group additions to alkenes generate cyclic esters known as lactones. Five-membered (gamma) and six-membered (delta) lactones are most commonly formed. Electrophilic species such as acids or halogens are necessary initiators of lactonizations. Even the weak electrophile iodine initiates iodolactonization of ?,?- and ?,?-unsaturated acids. Examples of these reactions will be displayed by clicking the "Other Examples" button.

3. Substitution of the Hydroxyl Group

Reactions in which the hydroxyl group of a carboxylic acid is replaced by another nucleophilic group are important for preparing functional derivatives of carboxylic acids. The alcohols provide a useful reference chemistry against which this class of transformations may be evaluated. In general, the hydroxyl group proved to be a poor leaving group, and virtually all alcohol reactions in which it was lost involved a prior conversion of –OH to a better leaving group. This has proven to be true for the carboxylic acids as well.
Four examples of these hydroxyl substitution reactions are presented by the following equations. In each example, the new bond to the carbonyl group is colored magenta and the nucleophilic atom that has replaced the hydroxyl oxygen is colored green. The hydroxyl moiety is often lost as water, but in reaction #1 the hydrogen is lost as HCl and the oxygen as SO2. This reaction parallels a similar transformation of alcohols to alkyl chlorides, although its mechanism is different. Other reagents that produce a similar conversion to acyl halides are PCl5 and SOBr2.
The amide and anhydride formations shown in equations #2 & 3 require strong heating, and milder procedures that accomplish these transformations will be described in the next chapter.

Reaction #4 is called esterification, since it is commonly used to convert carboxylic acids to their ester derivatives. Esters may be prepared in many different ways; indeed, equations #1 and #4 in the previous diagram illustrate the formation of tert-butyl and methyl esters respectively. The acid-catalyzed formation of ethyl acetate from acetic acid and ethanol shown here is reversible, with an equilibrium constant near 2. The reaction can be forced to completion by removing the water as it is formed. This type of esterification is often referred to as Fischer esterification. As expected, the reverse reaction, acid-catalyzed ester hydrolysis, can be carried out by adding excess water.
A thoughtful examination of this reaction (#4) leads one to question why it is classified as a hydroxyl substitution rather than a hydrogen substitution. The following equations, in which the hydroxyl oxygen atom of the carboxylic acid is colored red and that of the alcohol is colored blue, illustrate this distinction (note that the starting compounds are in the center).


H2O + CH3CO-OCH2CH3 H-substitution


CH3CO-OH + CH3CH2-OH
HO-substitution


CH3CO-OCH2CH3 + H2O

In order to classify this reaction correctly and establish a plausible mechanism, the oxygen atom of the alcohol was isotopically labeled as 18O (colored blue in our equation). Since this oxygen is found in the ester product and not the water, the hydroxyl group of the acid must have been replaced in the substitution. A mechanism for this general esterification reaction will be displayed on clicking the "Esterification Mechanism" button; also, once the mechanism diagram is displayed, a reaction coordinate for it can be seen by clicking the head of the green "energy diagram" arrow. Addition-elimination mechanisms of this kind proceed by way of tetrahedral intermediates (such as A and B in the mechanism diagram) and are common in acyl substitution reactions. Acid catalysis is necessary to increase the electrophilic character of the carboxyl carbon atom, so it will bond more rapidly to the nucleophilic oxygen of the alcohol. Base catalysis is not useful because base converts the acid to its carboxylate anion conjugate base, a species in which the electrophilic character of the carbon is reduced.
Since a tetrahedral intermediate occupies more space than a planar carbonyl group, we would expect the rate of this reaction to be retarded when bulky reactants are used. To test this prediction the esterification of acetic acid was compared with that of 2,2-dimethylpropanoic acid, (CH3)3CO2H. Here the relatively small methyl group of acetic acid is replaced by a larger tert-butyl group, and the bulkier acid reacted fifty times slower than acetic acid. Increasing the bulk of the alcohol reactant results in a similar rate reduction.

Reduction & Oxidation Reactions
Reductions & Oxidations of Carboxylic Acids
1. Reduction

The carbon atom of a carboxyl group is in a relatively high oxidation state. Reduction to a 1º-alcohol takes place rapidly on treatment with the powerful metal hydride reagent, lithium aluminum hydride, as shown by the following equation. One third of the hydride is lost as hydrogen gas, and the initial product consists of metal salts which must be hydrolyzed to generate the alcohol. These reductions take place by the addition of hydride to the carbonyl carbon, in the same manner noted earlier for aldehydes and ketones. The resulting salt of a carbonyl hydrate then breaks down to an aldehyde that undergoes further reduction.


4 RCO2H + 3 LiAlH4 ether

4 H2 + 4 RCH2OM + metal oxides H2O

4 RCH2OH + metal hydroxides

Diborane, B2H6, reduces the carboxyl group in a similar fashion. Sodium borohydride, NaBH4, does not reduce carboxylic acids; however, hydrogen gas is liberated and salts of the acid are formed. Partial reduction of carboxylic acids directly to aldehydes is not possible, but such conversions have been achieved in two steps by way of certain carboxyl derivatives. These will be described later.

2. Oxidation

Because it is already in a high oxidation state, further oxidation removes the carboxyl carbon as carbon dioxide. Depending on the reaction conditions, the oxidation state of the remaining organic structure may be higher, lower or unchanged. The following reactions are all examples of decarboxylation (loss of CO2). In the first, bromine replaces the carboxyl group, so both the carboxyl carbon atom and the remaining organic moiety are oxidized. Silver salts have also been used to initiate this transformation, which is known as the Hunsdiecker reaction. The second reaction is an interesting bis-decarboxylation, in which the atoms of the organic residue retain their original oxidation states. Lead tetraacetate will also oxidize mono-carboxylic acids in a manner similar to reaction #1. Finally, the third example illustrates the general decarboxylation of ?-keto acids, which leaves the organic residue in a reduced state (note that the CO2 carbon has increased its oxidation state.).

Three additional examples of the Hunsdiecker reaction and a proposed mechanism for the transformation will be shown above by clicking on the diagram. Note that the meta- dihalobenzene formed in reaction 4 could not be made by direct halogenation reactions, since chlorine and bromine are ortho/para-directing substituents. Also, various iodide derivatives may be prepared directly from the corresponding carboxylic acids. A heavy metal carboxylate salt is transformed into an acyl hypohalide by the action of a halogen. The weak oxygen-halogen bond in this intermediate cleaves homolytically when heated or exposed to light, and the resulting carboxy radical decarboxylates to an alkyl or aryl radical. A chain reaction then repeats these events. Since acyl hypohalites are a source of electrophilic halogen, this reaction takes a different course when double bonds and reactive benzene derivatives are present. In this respect remember the addition of hypohalous reagents to double bonds and the facile bromination of anisole.

For a summary of the basic reactions of carboxylic acids Click Here




NewsW

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Posted: 03/18/12 06:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/virttxtjml/intro1.htm

Think I may have reached the limits of my level of competence --- organic chem was not my strong suite at all.


If I understand correctly, most organic acids have fairly low tolerance for heat and pressure.

NewsW

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Posted: 03/18/12 07:25pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ASTM Biodiesel Standard ASTM D6751 - 11b

D6751-11b Standard Specification for Biodiesel Fuel Blend Stock (B100) for Middle Distillate Fuels



This is the standard that biodiesel B100 is produced to --- and used to blend down to B5 or whatever your state sells locally.


The question: we know they do not test for metabolites from storage and handling.

But what do they test for, corrosion and reactivity wise?

Quote:


5.1.2 Water and Sediment—

Test Method D2709.

Test
Method
D1796 may also be used. Test Method D2709 shall be the referee method. The precision and bias of these test
methods with biodiesel is not known and is currently under
investigation.




5.1.7 Corrosion—Test Method ASTM D130, 3 h test at 50°C.

Basically soaking a copper strip in it for 3 hrs.


Quote:

X1.6 Copper Strip Corrosion
X1.6.1 This test serves as a measure of possible difficulties
with copper and brass or bronze parts of the fuel system. The
presence of acids or sulfur-containing compounds can tarnish
the copper strip, thus indicating the possibility for corrosion.



Quote:

X1.18 Oxidation Stability
X1.18.1 Products of oxidation in biodiesel can take the form
of various acids or polymers, which, if in high enough
concentration, can cause fuel system deposits and lead to ?lter
clogging and fuel system malfunctions. Additives designed to
retard the formation of acids and polymers can signi?cantly
improve the oxidation stability performance of biodiesel. See
Appendix X2 for additional information on long-term storage.
It is recommended that
EN 15751 be utilized for measurement
of biodiesel oxidation stability, because
EN 14112 may be
withdrawn in the future as an option for testing biodiesel and
biodiesel blends.


NewsW

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Posted: 03/18/12 07:30pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

What about microbial contamination?

ASTM D6469 deal with this issue...


Quote:

1. Scope

1.1 This guide provides personnel who have a limited microbiological background with an understanding of the symptoms, occurrence, and consequences of chronic microbial contamination. The guide also suggests means for detection and control of microbial contamination in fuels and fuel systems. This guide applies primarily to gasoline, aviation, boiler, industrial gas turbine, diesel, marine, furnace fuels and blend stocks (see Specifications D396, D910, D975, D1655, D2069, D2880, D3699, D4814, D6227, and D6751), and fuel systems. However, the principles discussed herein also apply generally to crude oil and all liquid petroleum fuels. ASTM Manual 47 provides a more detailed treatment of the concepts introduced in this guide; it also provides a compilation of all of the standards referenced herein that are not found in the Annual Book of ASTM Standards, Section Five on Petroleum Products and Lubricants.


NewsW

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Posted: 03/18/12 07:31pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Once we get into the issue of microbial growth, into things like biofilms, and much more complex phenomena.

Wow... now I got to do some real reading.


I am becoming more and more uneasy as I delve into ASTM with regards to biofuel standards, biodiesel, and issues of how quality is defined, measured, and tested.

Water in fuel... acknowledged test as troublesome.

Storage --- simply dealing with basic issues, but not serious contamination, 2nd order, 3rd order products.


Above all, not any real understanding of the stresses that diesel has to go through before it is injected.



Another idle thought..

What if this problem is mixed with misfueling?

DEF put in fuel tank?

Fuel contamination?

* This post was last edited 03/18/12 09:37pm by NewsW *   View edit history

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