hoopers wrote: I've been on hiatus for awhile, but all I can say is the EPA has done more overall damage to our environment than they have ever saved.
I was in Europe for awhile and at least a third of the cars over there are diesel these days, all getting great MPG and power. I saw diesel after diesel cruising down the autobahn at over 100 mph.
I rented a tiny little Renault diesel car...it cruised effortlessly at 80 mph and achieved great MPG at the same time. There was no black smoke or anything coming out the back tailpipe.
What a joke the EPA diesel standards are. With the mandated dry diesel fuel and the restrictive standards, what car maker will want to clear the EPA hurdles of trying to qualify a high mpg diesel auto? So instead, we continue to produce lower mpg gasoline autos producing much more emissions. They need to look at emissions per mile driven, or some such formula. At least that is the way it seems on the surface.
EGR, DPF and now DEF are all part of the EPA answer to emissions control on diesel trucks. Most don't even seem to care for that...me, I just buy them, keep them stock and, drive them and keep up the maintanance per manufactuers recommendations..
....Just because they do some things a certain way in Europe doesn't make it right for us.....look at China....you can keep it, along with Europe also..
Yet our country has no problem buying most of its products from China? As long as the pollution is over there, our products are cheap, and we are EPA compliant, than everything is OK?
City of San Bernadino declared bankruptcy today, by the way.
I just see too much apathy in this country. I'll get off my soapbox (at least I'll try-ha ha).
2011 Silverado CC DRW 4x4
2013 Bighorn 3670RL
Texas gulf coast, Colorado, or on the road camping somewhere
Dennis M M wrote: The major damage to the diesel market in the US came from General Motors when they decided they could convert gas engines to diesels back in the 80's. It was a (predictable) disaster and soured the general public on diesels.
The other factor favoring diesels in Europe is the high cost of gasoline. primarily due to taxes. Just think how much better off we would be here if the US had put in a sliding scale tax when gas prices were high that kept the prices up when the market came back down. Go ahead and flame me, but think about it: we would have more tax income to support our crumbling infrastructure and higher efficiency cars. Oh well.
I agree with you Dennis. The general perception of diesels here is very poor. But for those who own them, I think we believe differently.
hoopers wrote: I've been on hiatus for awhile, but all I can say is the EPA has done more overall damage to our environment than they have ever saved.
I was in Europe for awhile and at least a third of the cars over there are diesel these days, all getting great MPG and power. I saw diesel after diesel cruising down the autobahn at over 100 mph.
I rented a tiny little Renault diesel car...it cruised effortlessly at 80 mph and achieved great MPG at the same time. There was no black smoke or anything coming out the back tailpipe.
What a joke the EPA diesel standards are. With the mandated dry diesel fuel and the restrictive standards, what car maker will want to clear the EPA hurdles of trying to qualify a high mpg diesel auto? So instead, we continue to produce lower mpg gasoline autos producing much more emissions. They need to look at emissions per mile driven, or some such formula. At least that is the way it seems on the surface.
There are several issues you raise.
Tailpipe emissions are regulated in terms of x grams per mile.
While more gasoline can be used vs. diesel (because of the thermodynamic efficiency of the Diesel vs. the Otto cycle), they are still limited by the same gram per mile standards for emissions.
Regulations on Greenhouse Gas emissions, circa 2012 model year that complimented existing fuel economy regulations:
Between these two sets of programs, it address the issue of lowering absolute levels of emissions.
Now, manufacturers can meet this by many ways, such as reducing the amount of fuel used --- direct injection gasoline have the potential of closing much of the gap in thermodynamic efficiency between gasoline and diesel.
Meanwhile, diesel have lost a lot of ground as tailpipe emission rules forced a lower combustion temperature (EGR recirc), and in the case of light duty trucks, using a fair amount of fuel to clean the DPF.
In due course (10 years) expect diesels to recover some of the lost efficiency, but in the mean time.. tough.
Quote: The major damage to the diesel market in the US came from General Motors when they decided they could convert gas engines to diesels back in the 80's. It was a (predictable) disaster and soured the general public on diesels.
This might have been true through the 1980's and perhaps even into the early '90's but not today. VW for example has been making and importing diesels into the US since at least the days of the VW Rabbit, since around 1975 with success. The VW TDI is a well respected engine, lasts (with maintenance) about 400,000 miles and is generally considered a high fuel mileage dependable vehicle. Americans have either owned the TDI or been next to them on the highways for almost 40 years in some configuration. VW also has sold a very powerful diesel in a Tourareg in the US. It certainly can cruise the autoban or the interstates at any reasonable speed.
The Toyota hybrid Prius has been sold to many Americans on the perception that it is a green car, clean electric at least some of the time, and very reliable like all Toyotas. VW and most other diesel manufacturers have not attempted to sell their diesels as green. They might mention the benefits of high mileage as being partly green and the fact that they sell clean diesels but not nearly to the extent Toyota capitalizes on the green clean advertising. What many do not understand is that perception is reality to so many consumers and reality is irrevelant. If it is a hybrid it must be good for the environment and easy on gas. At the end of the day the Prius might cost the consumer more when it is time to replace inverters and batteries than what a dependable VW (for example) might cost over it's expected life. 'Hybrid' is the new buzz word for high mileage cars and they sell. During the 1973 oil embargo people put their names on long dealer lists to get a VW diesel Rabbit. High fuel mileage was important and that was with fuel at around 75 cents per gallon. It all depends on what is important to the consumer today and in the US gas engines are still king except for industry and those that tow heavy RV's, boats, horses, etc. Let the world experience another fuel crisis of some kind and fuel efficient diesels might be the 'in' thing again. Who knows.
The GM disaster is behind us and behind GM. The Duramax is a proven engine and the Cummins has seen RVers get over 1,000,000 miles from an engine that has never been taken apart. To rehash the past GM experience of more than thirty years ago as still affecting buying decisions today is simply a stoll down memory lane but not really practical today. So many car buyers today were not driving cars in 1980 and probably would never remember the 5.7 gas to diesel conversion that flopped. And with very few expections propane vehicles and natural gas vehicles have not caught on with most car purchasers either.
'05 Dodge Cummins 4x4 dually 3500 white quadcab auto long bed.
'09 299bhs Tango.
hoopers wrote: I've been on hiatus for awhile, but all I can say is the EPA has done more overall damage to our environment than they have ever saved.
I was in Europe for awhile and at least a third of the cars over there are diesel these days, all getting great MPG and power. I saw diesel after diesel cruising down the autobahn at over 100 mph.
I rented a tiny little Renault diesel car...it cruised effortlessly at 80 mph and achieved great MPG at the same time. There was no black smoke or anything coming out the back tailpipe.
What a joke the EPA diesel standards are. With the mandated dry diesel fuel and the restrictive standards, what car maker will want to clear the EPA hurdles of trying to qualify a high mpg diesel auto? So instead, we continue to produce lower mpg gasoline autos producing much more emissions. They need to look at emissions per mile driven, or some such formula. At least that is the way it seems on the surface.
(sigh) SO much misinformation, all in one place.
Firstly, you underestimated the percentage of diesels on the road in Europe. New car sales are well over 50% diesels all over Europe. Secondly, the reason you don't see that many diesels on US roads has nothing whatever to do with the EPA. It is due to the various automakers perceptions that the US public won't buy diesels. And mostly they've been right.Thirdly, the car makers that have brought diesels to the US market, indeed currently offer diesel cars here, include BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi, and Fiat/Chrysler is about to bring diesel Jeeps back for 2013.
Now about the EPA. Do you not understand that the EPA and its regulations are responsible for your still being able to even breathe in most of the US today? In 1967, when the first EPA standards went into effect, Los Angeles (among other cities) had so many smog days annually that the place was almost uninhabitable, especially for anyone with asthma or other breathing problems.
I can tell you've never been to China, my friend, where the burning of coal casts an almost permanent gray cover over the land. I have been there in 2006, for two weeks, and I saw blue sky for a whopping 3 hours one afternoon. Your enmity toward the EPA is highly misddirected.
You are right, I have never been to China, but I have been to other hell holes around the world. I try and avoid hell holes at this point.
I think it is important to look at the whole picture. I agree the EPA eliminated the Los Angeles smog problem in this country. On the other hand however, our free market is demanding cheap products from China. Could one say much of China's pollution is due to their factories making cheap products for the USA? Isn't that a double standard? Or Ford shifting their diesel motor production to Mexico for cheaper labor and less restrictive EPA standards?
hoopers wrote: Turtle, IMO, the bottom line is dollars. People buy gas autos here because it is cheaper. People buy diesels in Europe more because they are cheaper to use there.
I would just like to see 50-60 mpg diesel cars over here and diesel sold at 10% less cost than gasoline. Diesel fuel is a much more abundant fuel and therefore should be cheaper to use than Gasoline. If it isn't, there is something basically wrong. How much pollution goes into producing gasoline vs diesel? Does the EPA consider the pollution caused by producing one gallon of gasoline vs one gallon of diesel? From the time it leaves the oil field until it reaches your auto.
It is the same poor argument used to justify corn produced bio-fuels. Or hybrid cars that cost so much to buy upfront and the pollution caused to produce and dispose of hybrid batteries. Sometimes the simplest solution overall is the best. I just don't agree with our Govt (EPA) mandating to the free market what is best. That usually ends up with the worst possible outcome.
Yes, people usually buy what is cheaper or more economical. And yes, most of the time a gasoline "car" will be more economical to run in the US.
I have no idea where you come up with things like, "Diesel fuel is a much more abundant fuel and therefore should be cheaper to use than Gasoline." I and many others have shown you that is not the case in the US. Here is some reading to do.
I bet the EPA considers a lot of things before they do things. Sometimes they screw up, but most of the time things are correct. Like I said look up the history of AQ in LA.
I agree with you that alkie fuels are a no starter but all well. Batteries are easy to recycle and use over again so I don't agree with you there.
The EPA does not mandate anything. The EPA sets spec's and it is up to the manufacturer to meet those spec's. They can do it anyway they want to as long as they meet those spec's. Over in Europe I'm sure they have the same thing going on.
I think that if you got the 60 to 80 MPG cars over here you would be the first to complain if one of your family members got killed because of poor safety standards. You can't have everything.
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outside the fire"
jmtandem wrote: VW for example has been making and importing diesels into the US since at least the days of the VW Rabbit, since around 1975 with success. The VW TDI is a well respected engine, lasts (with maintenance) about 400,000 miles and is generally considered a high fuel mileage dependable vehicle.
The Toyota hybrid Prius has been sold to many Americans on the perception that it is a green car, clean electric at least some of the time, and very reliable like all Toyotas.
The GM disaster is behind us and behind GM. The Duramax is a proven engine and the Cummins has seen RVers get over 1,000,000 miles from an engine that has never been taken apart.
VW EPA 2010 diesels with the Bosch CP 4 pump have had the same problems as Ford and GM with the CP 4 pump.
Everyone with a modern high pressure injection pump is struggling.
The idea that diesels last longer is increasingly unfounded as gasoline engine durability have greatly improved.
It is now routine for a gasoline engine to get 200,000 miles, and diesels are no longer doing much more than 250,000 miles.
It is not the block / pistons / bottom end that wears.
It is all the other stuff around it, wiring, sensors, etc. that simply don't last. 15 or so years is still around the time when a vehicle gets to real old age, and it is scrapped, regardless of the shape of the engine.
Does it matter if the engine is perfect but the rest of the vehicle is rusted out?
jmtandem wrote: VW for example has been making and importing diesels into the US since at least the days of the VW Rabbit, since around 1975 with success. The VW TDI is a well respected engine, lasts (with maintenance) about 400,000 miles and is generally considered a high fuel mileage dependable vehicle.
The Toyota hybrid Prius has been sold to many Americans on the perception that it is a green car, clean electric at least some of the time, and very reliable like all Toyotas.
The GM disaster is behind us and behind GM. The Duramax is a proven engine and the Cummins has seen RVers get over 1,000,000 miles from an engine that has never been taken apart.
VW EPA 2010 diesels with the Bosch CP 4 pump have had the same problems as Ford and GM with the CP 4 pump.
Everyone with a modern high pressure injection pump is struggling.
NEWSW,
what about other countries like Germany (cars specifically sold in Germany, not German cars sold here)? Are they struggling with fuel pump failures? One of the posters, a few posts back, said new diesel sales are 50%. Hard to imagine they are having issues if sales are that strong.
My point being is I felt lucky to drive one of these new high MPG diesels for a week, and it was great. I was just trying to report on what I experienced. So naturally, I just wonder what is going on with diesels in our country.
I am familiar with the current selection of diesels here.
What we are missing here, IMO, are the high performance diesel cars made by Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc. Audi A6 and A8 now come with large diesel engines. BMW now has diesels in its high performance cars too.
We are also missing the large selection of high mpg smaller cars. I am not an expert in fuels, thermodynamics, etc, but am just curious why this is. My first assumption was, and I could be wrong, is maybe it is the EPA requirements.
Is the fuel pump issue leaving a bad taste in American manufacturers's mouths (due to our dry diesel fuels)?
All of Fords 6.0 problems? Didn't Ford eliminate its 7.3 design, and move to the 6.0 to specifically meet new EPA standards?
Maybe the lack of diesels is only a perception thing, like other posters claim.
I am not trying to start any fights, but am just wondering.
I know there have been many posters frustrated with diesel emissions, costs, and product reliability.
Plus, regular gas was $5.80 a gallon in Europe, with diesel about 10% cheaper. If gas was that much here, maybe things would be different here.
Obviously, there are many different opinions out there...
* This post was
edited 07/11/12 05:32pm by hoopers *
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