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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Only other suggestion is to only run at 44psi when towing. For around town daily commuting drop the pressure back to what is on the label on the drivers door jamb.I had noted earlier that I was mistaken, and the MAX PSI is stated on the tires as 44 PSI, not 35. Not sure where I got that. Thanks!
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GaryS1953
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05/28/23 11:47am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Gary
Just for the record the higher tire pressures is just a test.
For suspension the most economical springs look like maybe the Hellwig 1500 springs.
Back to your original post yes airbags will also do the same thing and be easily adjustable where the helper spring will just make it feel more like the 3/4 ton you drove, all the time.
I wouldn’t expect it to be 100% as nice/effortless as an actual 3/4 ton if you add springs and tires but I’d expect a good improvement.
It’s always hard to explain this as how one “feels” about ride and handling is, expectedly, subjective. And my perception of comfortable may be different than yours.
But your numbers look good.
What you’re feeling is using a 1/2 ton to the upper end of its real world capabilities vs a bigger truck that would be at a lesser % of capacity.
Good luck, hope this helps you.
You've been SO helpful. I think we'll start with the Airlift Air bags. I think they ware well within my capabilities, and not terribly expensive. The tires are new within the last 6 months, so I'll keep them inflated to the max, 44 psi, and perhaps up to 50 or so if you think that is wise. Any other last suggestions appreciated before I order the air bags.
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GaryS1953
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05/28/23 09:28am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Ok for those still following this thread and offering advice - I went back to the Cat scale, hope I've got this right.
1st ticket -Steer Axle only 5,780 The truck on only one pad.
2nd ticket Steer Axle 3,260
Drive Axle 3,460
Trailer Axle 5,940
Combination 12,660
So I added the two truck axle weights, then subtracted the truck weight, and I get a difference of 940, divide by the truck actual weight of 5780, and I get 16.26% Am I doing that right?
If you are trying to calculate the percentage of tongue weight, you should divide by the trailer's total weight. So 940/(12660-5780) is about 13.7%. Still good though.
That helps, thanks very much!
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GaryS1953
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05/28/23 09:24am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Ok for those still following this thread and offering advice - I went back to the Cat scale, hope I've got this right.
1st ticket -Steer Axle only 5,780 The truck on only one pad.
2nd ticket Steer Axle 3,260
Drive Axle 3,460
Trailer Axle 5,940
Combination 12,660
So I added the two truck axle weights, then subtracted the truck weight, and I get a difference of 940, divide by the truck actual weight of 5780, and I get 16.26% Am I doing that right?
Also, I overinflated the truck tires to 55 psi, and it seemed to help with small bumps, but large bumps still cause what I call bucking, where the front and back of the truck jump up and down, and I still feel like the truck is too light in front and it seems difficult to keep the truck going straight down the road. Next thing I guess I'll probably try is adding leaf spring helpers as Grit dog suggested. Any particular type recommended? Not exactly sure what I'm looking for.
Finally I borrowed a 3/4 ton Chevy Duramax and towed the camper with that. Still, some very minor bucking, but it was like night and day, and, perhaps even more importantly, I could steer with one hand, it was that stable in the front.
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GaryS1953
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05/26/23 04:30pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Hi Gary, when you say your tires have a max load of 35 PSI where are you getting that number? Is that on the sticker on the drivers door jamb or on the tire itself? The tires should have a max pressure of 45PSI cold embossed directly on the sidewall of the tire.
I would at least put the rear truck tires at max cold (max cold is first thing in the morning before you drive more than a few blocks) But as Grit says if the 45 is still not right you can try 65 PSI and drive it for a few miles for a test.Oh boy, now I'm feeling REALLY stupid. I could swear I saw it on the tire, 35 max PSI, but you are right, it says 44 PSI. I will be airing them up shortly.
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GaryS1953
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05/26/23 10:41am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
To Grit dog, By the way, forgot to mention that the previous owner had flipped the axle on this trailer. Not sure why. Seems to me with adjustable hitches it really only makes sense to do it on 5th wheels, not TTs. In any case, could that be contributing to our issues?
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GaryS1953
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05/26/23 06:35am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Gary, not sure why you’re still on the “throw the baby out with the bath water kick”.
Look at the title of your thread.
And your assessment before and after the new hitch.
You seem to have cured the “sway”? Which sounds like just the typical little “wiggles” of hauling a long bp trailer that likely has enough weight in the tail to wag the dog just a little.
If you had sway problems, you’d have had to stop and clean your shorts and then you’d have been drivin miss daisy at about 45-50mph the rest of the way.
The bouncing/bucking CAN be helped greatly with a stiffer rear suspension and as I recommended like 5 pages ago, riding on cushy tires makes it even more pronounced.
If you’re still with me here, you can simulate both better tires AND a stiffer suspension for FREE.
Do this. First, pump up your rear tires to idk, 55-60 psi (don’t freak out, they won’t pop) and take a test drive with simulated higher capacity tires.
Now if your truck has a separate lower overload spring, go back and pick up the back of the truck a bit above unloaded stance with the trailer jack, like you’re hooking up the bars. Or you can do it by jacking up the truck with a jack under the stinger. Wedge the overload tight to the leaf pack so it takes load instantly. This is the equivalent of adding some spring capacity.
If your leaf pack is all clipped together you can’t do the last thing, so spend the $100-150 on a pair of overload helper leafs off Amazon and slap them on the springs and crank em up.
You may keep them or you can refund them easy peasy.
This is a difficult conversation since you continually jump back to needing a heavier truck rather than even attempting to improve the one you have. Makes my brain hurt and it should make yours hurt too if you don’t think you’re “able” to get a 3/4 ton.
I can promise you I’ve towed 1000s or 10000s of miles with half tons pulling trailers that make yours look like little tinkerbell from a weight standpoint. Now some/many TTs don’t tow ideally due to a greater % of weight aft of the axles. But so be it. Although I just can’t see not doing anything and throwing the white flag.Grit Dog - Wow, thank YOU for hanging in there for me. I've been busy with company the last couple days and haven't been on the computer, but I really appreciate your detailed effort to help.
My use of the term "sway" may have been simply misunderstanding of what I was experiencing, and lack of proper terminology. Now that I've wasted money on the hitch, I think the "sway" problem was mostly caused by having too much weight in the back of my truck, and slightly under inflated truck tires. Having removed close to 600 lbs of weight seems to have helped with the sway feeling, but NOT with the bucking. We had some of that with the 5th wheel, but nothing like we experienced with the TT. My truck tires are Michelin XLTs, 265/75 R18, and the max PSI is 35. You're suggesting I inflate them to 55? That's a little scary... My truck does not have overload springs as near as I can tell, with just 3 leafs. Is there anything else I could try, cheaply or free? My cousin suggested adding another leaf spring, but I haven't looked into that yet, and would be reluctant to throw money at it not knowing it would work. The wife has said she WILL NOT ride in the truck with the camper bucking like it was, so it really has to be a major improvement. The one thought that I had was to try towing it with a 3/4 truck to see if the ride would be acceptable, and then I would at least know that suspension improvements on our current truck could make the difference. I'm going to try to do that tomorrow.
By the way, the trailer tires are ST 225/75 R15s, and the max PSI stamped on the tire is 80. Supposedly they were new last year. The freshwater tank is squarely between the axles, and the black and gray tanks are behind it. I rarely travel with much in the black and gray, but often carry a full tank of fresh water as we do some boondocking and or stopping at Cracker barrels along our route. I don't know if you saw it in the specs, but this trailer has a factory platform rack on the back that pulls out, basically an extension of the frame with the bumper attached to the end. The spare tire is mounted to this, but it makes a GREAT bike rack, incredibly sturdy. We did travel with two bikes on that rack platform.
Again, I really appreciate your tolerance of my ignorance on this subject, and willingness to help.
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GaryS1953
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05/25/23 07:45pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
The scale operator should have instructed you on what to do to get proper weights. He just took your money.
Fender measurements are almost as good as weights. 1-1/2" of squat in the rear is FINE. You don't need to be at unloaded ride height. The truck is designed with 2" of rake to ride level while having a load in the back.
The most important measurement is the front fender. You need three measurements. One unhitched. Two hitched withOUT the bars attached. Three hitched WITH the bars attached. You are missing measurement #2 here.
The ideal range for measurement #3 is halfway between measurement #1 and #2. Closer to #1 is better.
Are the bars easy to install? If so they are NOT doing their job.
Truck Measures without hooked up
Front 35.75"
Rear 37.75"
Truck Measure after hooked up
Front 36.00"
Rear 36.25
You are only .25" off in the front so you should be transferring PLENTY of weight, assuming you measured in the exact same location both times.Thank you for for the explanations and advice. I'll be getting back to the Cat scale in the next few days. The bars are difficult to install, and necessitate me jacking the camper and truck up close to the max in order to accomplish it, but then I'm getting weaker in my old (70) age :)
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GaryS1953
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05/23/23 07:55am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
PS
You didn’t use the scale correctly and had your whole truck on the drive axle pad for #1 and whatever #2 is, is useless.I will try to get back to the Cat scale in the next few days. Thanks for your advice and recommendations.
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GaryS1953
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05/23/23 07:51am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
The guy gave me two slips, and they ARE confusing. The first one says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 6540
Trailer Axle 5980
Gross Weight 12520
The 2nd sheet says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 840
Trailer Axle 5860
Gross Weight 6700
This WAS confusing to me. I asked the guy to explain, and he said the Drive axle was the truck, and the trailer axle was the trailer weight. I didin't realize the numbers on the 2nd sheet were different until I got home. The more I think about it I think the truck and trailer numbers might be reversed, and that would make more sense. The curb weight of the truck is supposed to be 5209, and the dry weight of the trailer should be 5777. I do have stuff in both the truck, and the camper, but all the tanks were empty, and we had removed a lot of our stuff right after we got back from camping. I'm guessing there's about 300 to 400 lbs of odds and ends in the basement and the pantry and bedroom.
This is the fault of internet. We tell you to weigh with and without the trailer, but just assume you will know how to use scale. I'm sorry.
The Cat platform is divided into 3 sections, normally with blue lines around each. When you pull on you should park with one line under the TV, so front axle is on 1 segment, rear on 2nd, and trailer on 3rd. Parked like that each time you weigh the ticket will have 4 numbers; STEERING,(=front axle) DRIVE,(=back axle of TV) TRAILER, (=the trailer axles) and GROSS (=total weight of unit) The pass w/o trailer the 3rd segment will read 0
With all those numbers we can figure out what adjustments need to be made. Subtract Gross w/o trailer from gross with it, you have weight of trailer. Subtract what scale reads as Trailer from that number, you have tongue weight. Is that percentage in the 10-15% range?
Comparing DRIVE weight to ratings on rear tires, are tires overloaded at 35PSI? (BTW, I have never seen factory recommend tires on 1/2 ton be maxed out on sidewall labeled pressure)
Weight on front w/wo tells how much the TW is subtracting from front. Is that enough to cause issue?
I should have researched this before I went to the Cat scale. I'll try to get back in the next couple of days, but I'm really starting to feel like this truck is just not adequate for the job. Unfortunately, a new truck is not in the cards, so I may be putting this trailer up for sale and going back to our old tried and true fifth wheel. Thanks for your patient explanations and advice.
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GaryS1953
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05/23/23 07:49am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Your truck's keester is still squatting 1.5" with your weight distribution hitch set up. I would apply more tension to the bars by tilting the hitch head down and transferring more weight to your front tires. Try to get your rear measurement to 37.25". Wouldn't hurt.
The problem with air bags is that it hardens the rear suspension creating a fulcrum. Adding weight (tongue weight) far behind the rear axle creates a lever and will cause your front axle to unload. The reason your 5th wheel of almost equivalent weight didn't have the same effect is because the weight was directly over the rear axle.
I assume you weighed the truck with the trailer attached and also weighed the trailer's axles. It would be nice to know what the truck weighs without the trailer attached to help determine your tongue weight. If your axles come in at 5,980 and you have 12% tongue weight, then your trailer weighs 6,795 pounds with 815 pounds of tongue weight. Starting to get kind of heavy for a half ton truck.
I'm not sure I understand about putting tension on the bars by "tilting the hitch head down". I have a Curt 17601 weight distribution hitch with integrated sway control. I don't know how I would tilt the hitch head, but I could raise the height of the equalizing/sway bars, which obviously would put more tension on them. Is that what you meant?
Thanks, Gary
Search Curt 17601 on Google and an installation video will come up, or copy and paste this URL. (https://youtu.be/ki7Z_FtfFEY). They show how to adjust the two adjustment screws on the hitch head to tilt the bars down thus increasing spring tension.
So I adjusted the hitch tilt as far as I could and still get the ball to lock. It made putting bars on very difficult with the jack as high as it would go, and it made virtually no difference in the measurements, nor in the way the truck felt driving down the road. I adjusted it back to straight up. Have not had time to get back to the Cat scale.
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GaryS1953
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05/23/23 07:41am |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Trailer Specs
Hitch Weight 663 lbs
GVWR 9463 lbs
Dry Weight 5777 lbs
Cargo Capacity 3212 lbs
Vehicle Specs
4WD:
Double Cab, 5.8 V8
9600 lbs / 4354 kgs – 5.3L (3.42 axle)
I would count that as 9463 trailer and the truck is maxed out. Drive and adjust your expectations accordingly. How much does the rear sag once fully connected to roll? May need to tighten up the distribution bars if the rear drops more than a couple inches.
Anything in the bed? On the camping trip we had a fair amount in the bed, I'm guessing close to 600 lbs, including my fifth wheel hitch, which I had left in because I still have it and need to move it. I took it all out, and it's now empty. That did seem to help a little, but the front of the truck still feels light and less controllable, though it doesn't seem to buck quite as much now. The rear of the truck sags by 1 and half inches when hooked up.
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GaryS1953
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05/20/23 09:56pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs
Any further help is appreciated.
CAT should have gave you weights per axle. What were those with and without the trailer hooked up.
Also, something isn't making sense with the camper weight. If the empty weight is 5777, that would imply you only have about 200lb in the trailer. Batteries and propane would add that much. Did you take the trailer & truck loaded as if you were going camping? No sense getting weight data that doesn't match what you will actually be towing.
The guy gave me two slips, and they ARE confusing. The first one says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 6540
Trailer Axle 5980
Gross Weight 12520
The 2nd sheet says: Steer Axle 00
Drive Axle 840
Trailer Axle 5860
Gross Weight 6700
This WAS confusing to me. I asked the guy to explain, and he said the Drive axle was the truck, and the trailer axle was the trailer weight. I didin't realize the numbers on the 2nd sheet were different until I got home. The more I think about it I think the truck and trailer numbers might be reversed, and that would make more sense. The curb weight of the truck is supposed to be 5209, and the dry weight of the trailer should be 5777. I do have stuff in both the truck, and the camper, but all the tanks were empty, and we had removed a lot of our stuff right after we got back from camping. I'm guessing there's about 300 to 400 lbs of odds and ends in the basement and the pantry and bedroom.
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GaryS1953
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05/20/23 09:47pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Your truck's keester is still squatting 1.5" with your weight distribution hitch set up. I would apply more tension to the bars by tilting the hitch head down and transferring more weight to your front tires. Try to get your rear measurement to 37.25". Wouldn't hurt.
The problem with air bags is that it hardens the rear suspension creating a fulcrum. Adding weight (tongue weight) far behind the rear axle creates a lever and will cause your front axle to unload. The reason your 5th wheel of almost equivalent weight didn't have the same effect is because the weight was directly over the rear axle.
I assume you weighed the truck with the trailer attached and also weighed the trailer's axles. It would be nice to know what the truck weighs without the trailer attached to help determine your tongue weight. If your axles come in at 5,980 and you have 12% tongue weight, then your trailer weighs 6,795 pounds with 815 pounds of tongue weight. Starting to get kind of heavy for a half ton truck.
I'm not sure I understand about putting tension on the bars by "tilting the hitch head down". I have a Curt 17601 weight distribution hitch with integrated sway control. I don't know how I would tilt the hitch head, but I could raise the height of the equalizing/sway bars, which obviously would put more tension on them. Is that what you meant?
Thanks, Gary
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GaryS1953
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05/20/23 07:32pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
You don't mention what your P-rated truck tire max pressure is, but in any case, the front truck tires would not need to be at max pressure. You are not adding much extra wt to truck steer axle. Truck rear tires at max sidewall pressure.
Jerry Jerry, the truck tires max pressure is 35 psi which is where I have them at.
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GaryS1953
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05/20/23 06:31pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
FWIW the camper specs say the tongue weight is 663 lbs. Not sure how to go about adding more tension to the hitch bars. It's a Curt with integrated sway control, and the hitch iself has several different attachment points for the ball, supposedly rated for up to 10,000 lbs.
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GaryS1953
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05/20/23 06:18pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Empty weight is irrelevant and payload often runs out before tow rating.
Swing by a CAT scale and find out what the real weights are (loaded as if you are going on a trip). Take 3 measurements (after the first, you can do re-weighs for like $3, so probably $20-25 total).
- Fully hooked up with the WDH connected.
- Hooked up but disconnect the WDH bars.
- Just the truck.
With this info, you can determine the actual weight of the trailer and the actual hitch weight. Then you can determine the hitch weight and if the truck is overloaded.
On the door of the truck are stickers that provide overall and per axle payload ratings.
It might be that the trucks rear suspension is overloaded or it could be the opposite and the hitch weight is too low. If it's too low, airbags won't help.
I may get to a cat scale, but in the meantime could you elaborate? What is meant by "hitch weight is too low"? Thanks!
Hitch weight should be minimum 10%. Ideally between 12-15% (more is actually better but unlikely your truck could handle it).
Assuming you are at 8000lb loaded (guess based on empty weight plus a couple thousand in cargo, which is very realistic when you figure water, propane, batteries, etc...). You should be looking at around 1000-1200lb hitch weight. Add in say 4 people plus firewood, cooler etc... in the truck. All that counts against payload. You could easily have 2000lb on the truck and most half tons have around 1500lb payload (it can vary drastically). That would leave you over payload and with the squishy suspension on lighter duty 1/2 ton trucks, it can feel squirrely when driving. Airbags can help with the ride if you are overloaded but you are still overloaded, so it's masking the issue.
Alternatively, if you are light on hitch weight say 8%, even if the truck is fine, the trailer can get squirrely. Airbags won't help with this issue.
As previously mentioned, factory empty weights are irrelevant. They don't include any gear you put in the trailer, water, propane, batteries, any aftermarket bolt on items, etc..., so reality is you will never tow at empty weights.
Ok, so I did several things today. I checked and aired up all tires for truck and trailer to max. Then I measured front and rear of the truck with and without the trailer hooked up. Finally I went to a cat scale and got combination weight and weight of truck and camper.
Truck Measures without hooked up
Front 35.75"
Rear 37.75"
Truck Measure after hooked up
Front 36.00"
Rear 36.25
Cat Scale
Combination 12520 lbs
Camper 5980 lbs
truck 6540 lbs
Any further help is appreciated.
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GaryS1953
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05/20/23 04:55pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Do you have P or LT tires in the truck? 35 pounds of air can't be enough. You should have LT tires inflated to I'd guess 40 to 50 psi depending on weight.
You are very likely over your trucks GVWR. You are quite likely over your tire weights if the are P tires. I have P tires, and you are right, and actually I should have a 3/4 ton truck, but that just isn't in the cards : ). Beginning to think I just need to sell this camper and go back to something smaller.
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GaryS1953
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05/19/23 09:19pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Not enough hitch weight? That is typical of the issues you mentioned in my experience.
MartyI'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Here are the specs for the trailer:
Trailer Specs
Hitch Weight 663 lbs
GVWR 9463 lbs
Dry Weight 5777 lbs
Cargo Capacity 3212 lbs
Vehicle Specs
4WD:
Double Cab, 5.8 V8
9600 lbs / 4354 kgs – 5.3L (3.42 axle)
Thanks!
Where are you getting these values from? If you have less than 700 pounds of tongue weight on a nearly 10,000 pound trailer, that could cause your issues.
Got the trailer specs from Google, and the truck specs from the GM build sheet for my vehicle. The trailer weight is 5777, but I probably have around 2000 lbs cargo on it.
First, I wouldn’t trust google for the weights. You really should find a CAT scale and see what weights you really have, total, and tongue weight.
2000 pounds is a lot of cargo to have on board. I’m assuming that is an estimate as well, but if you have that much weight somehow behind the rear axle it will unload the tongue weight of the trailer and could cause your problems.
That makes good sense. I'll try to get that done in the next couple days and get back to the board. Thanks very much!
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GaryS1953
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05/19/23 05:17pm |
Towing
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RE: Will Air bags make a big difference?
Not enough hitch weight? That is typical of the issues you mentioned in my experience.
MartyI'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Here are the specs for the trailer:
Trailer Specs
Hitch Weight 663 lbs
GVWR 9463 lbs
Dry Weight 5777 lbs
Cargo Capacity 3212 lbs
Vehicle Specs
4WD:
Double Cab, 5.8 V8
9600 lbs / 4354 kgs – 5.3L (3.42 axle)
Thanks!
Where are you getting these values from? If you have less than 700 pounds of tongue weight on a nearly 10,000 pound trailer, that could cause your issues.
Got the trailer specs from Google, and the truck specs from the GM build sheet for my vehicle. The trailer weight is 5777, but I probably have around 2000 lbs cargo on it.
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GaryS1953
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05/19/23 01:38pm |
Towing
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