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RE: No gas to cook top
I wish it were that simple. Unless you use the griddle over a campfire, you will encounter a regulator!
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enahs
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04/10/22 09:45am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
I wish it were that simple. Unless you use the griddle over a campfire, you will encounter a regulator!
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enahs
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04/10/22 09:25am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Yes, I will post some side by side pics.once the old one is pulled out. But a real test will require a return to high altitude. Though Lookout pass is nearby at 4700 feet. Lola pass is a bit further at 5300 feet. Yes, the R60 regulator is on the new part, but it’s mounting tube is continuous with the whole assembly. On the originals, the regulator is on a long tube that then attaches to the gas manifold. BTW I found that regulator is or was used on a Suburban stove assembly too.
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enahs
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04/09/22 09:09pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
I am also wondering whether any of this is influenced by the orifice size in the burners. Though I don't know, I am guessing that this too can affect the impact of atmospheric pressure on the regulator. Got the new assembly today, so we will soon be able to do a partial comparison. But complete comparison will have to await another outing above 4500 feet. It uses the same R60 regulator. Can only hope some changes have been made.
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enahs
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04/09/22 01:52pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Quite familiar with the need to wait for gas flow. In this case, you could wait all day and nuttin. Not even a slight whiff of gas or sound of air. Confident that the regulator is shutting off gas flow entirely at high altitude. At lower elevations, stove works fine!
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enahs
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04/08/22 02:16pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Perhaps I'v got my thinking bass awkward, but I believe that a stronger spring is necessary, at least in my case. Too, some have apparently resolved the problem by turning down the tank regulator making it easier for the stove regulator to open. Then there is the question as to whether other stoves or appliances use a regulator that works. In all my years of camping, often at high elevation with different RVs, I've never encountered this issue. There must be something that works.
Shane
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enahs
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04/07/22 09:40am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Oh my! Your post is simply outstanding. More than I ever hoped for. And I very much appreciate it! More than aa few have this issue, and you have provided the most thorough discussion anywhere on the web. I do understand in detail how a regulator works and understand and tend to agree with your conclusion. My only question is the insistence of others that the diaphragm is controlled solely by the spring tension; atmospheric pressure has no influence. But as you point out, with a very weak spring as the R60 has, I can easily see atmosphere having an influence. But, in the final analysis, is there a solution? I have that bit. BTW, one thing is beyond dispute: atmosphere is indeed having an influence, regardless of any spring.
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enahs
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04/06/22 10:29pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
I asked the mfg what the problem.. It is a company in Taiwan We'll see if I hear back. Used a translator and sent msg in Chinese.
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enahs
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04/06/22 02:04pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Here's the regulator at issue. It's on a dometic D21 https://www.sevenuniverse.com.tw/en/products-1/lp-regulator-5
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enahs
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04/06/22 12:35pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Tried the slow turn on with no luck. BTW, I've learned that the main regulator hoses and some regulators have a flow control valve. Open too fast and it thinks there is a leak and shuts down. In this case, other appliances were getting gas. Only the stove shut down and only at 5500 feet.
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enahs
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04/06/22 11:41am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Many thanks John for all of your work on this. Yes, I saw the regulator in the manual diagram but dometic told me there was no regulator in the system! I don't think the CS rep actually knew. But the problem in all of this is that there is no gas flow at all at the stove at 5500 feet. None, not even a hint. Yet at the nearby outside camp stove fitting there is gas. Back at lower elevation it works fine. Why? The main regulator at the tank is not influenced by elevation. Not positive but fairly certain the "obstruction" is at the stove "regulator". But why. This will be checked more thoroughly. All other appliances work fine (though furnace now shows a sail switch issue on the board read out). Now, that original part that is called a "regulator pipe" has now been superseded by a new dometic part that has the "regulator" integral to the entire burner assembly. With no help or sympathy from Dometic, I have one of these assemblies coming. Dometic would not supply it because it is a gas part. But I could buy it on line from an RV parts supplier! BTW, great pic of the R60 regulator. I was also told 4500 feet was the limit. Ill report any findings. the old regulator is going to be disassembled.
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enahs
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04/06/22 09:52am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Finally was able to speak with a propane valve engineer. He surmises that what I havre taken for a regulator at the cook top is actually a flow shut off valve installed there for safety reasons. As he explains it, this is not mandatory but is sometimes used to shut off flow in the event of a line rupture. On the cook top at high elevation, when the stove valve is opened, the atmospheric pressure is not sufficient to push the ball/spring arrangement open against the flow supplied by the main tank regulator — which I believe is a constant at a given regulator setting. The flow control valve senses too much flow and closes, shutting off the gas entirely. He says that the flow valve is only there for safety reasons. Soooo, I am wondering if turning down the main regulator at the tank is a solution.
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enahs
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04/05/22 11:31am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
OK, reviewing some of my physics, I see the source of my error. Spring tension in a regulator is a constant function of the length of the spring. It is not assisted or detracted by atmospheric pressure. Thus, the pressure on the diaphragm of the regulator is a constant at a constant spring length.
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enahs
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04/02/22 01:10pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
You may be right about debris. We'll see. But here's where I get lost. The regulator is set by the spring pressure and the ambient atmospheric pressure. More pressure on the spring pushes down on the valve and opens it making for more gas flow output and more pressure. But when the spring is set in the first place it is done in conjunction with ambient atmospheric pressure on the diaphragm. At higher elevation, that atmospheric pressure is less and the valve moves a tad toward closed — like turning the spring screw a bit counter clockwise (which will also decrease output pressure). The regulator itself is not closed to the atmosphere, though the tank is. What am I missing? I do grasp that the oxygen changes and that influences the flame efficiency. Urged kids to tap the stove regulator. Don't know if they did. We will work on this in the week ahead, but it is difficult/impossible to diagnose an altitude issue at now a lower elevation!
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enahs
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04/02/22 09:30am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Have been talking with Escape. They are interested and willing to be helpful. Dometic has given them the same altitude response. Kids are back to lower elevation and stove is working but the furnace isn't. This will get more discussion on Escape. BTW, it was on the Escape forum that I first discovered the altitude issue with the Dometic D21 cooktop. There has been no final resolution. I resorted to this forum (as I have in the past) because of its larger, diverse brand membership. OTOH, Dometic is widely used. Meanwhile, I've managed to learn exactly how a regulator works, and it is clear that a number of things can affect it. Some "experts" insist that altitude can affect the air/fuell mixture and thus the efficiency of the flame but it does not affect the regulator itself. Others say it can affect the regulator diaphragm since the regulator is not closed to the atmosphere. But clearly atmospheric pressure does affect something more than the flame quality. In this case (and others), there was no gas flow at all, suggesting the regulator had closed due to insufficient pressure on the primary or secondary sides or both.
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enahs
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04/01/22 09:33am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Now things have suddenly gotten a bit cloudy. For a week the only issue has been the stove — no gas at all, which made me suspect the regulator at the stove not opening. Now, last night, for the first time the furnace would not stay lit. Beginning to suspect the main regulator at the tank (or both regulators). All this stuff is brand new. Very frustrating.
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enahs
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03/31/22 11:41am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Just to update my interaction with Dometic. While failing to find the regulator tube part on line, I went back to Dometic. They said that 50806 was no longer available. I said its a new unit! Then the person looked further and found that that part has been replaced by a new part 50817 which is a whole burner assembly that includes the regulator tube as an integral component! It's covered by warranty. But while I can buy it on line, I can't get it from Dometic because it's a gas part! The unit will have to go in to an authorized Dometic dealer! Remarkable. All this time to find that it is a defective part! As it had to be, given that the 4500 feet stuff was pure BS! BTW Ernie, what instrument did you use to reset the regulator?
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enahs
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03/30/22 05:59pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
That will be done once the kids are back from Canyonlands —14 hour drive. I've been attempting to determine if there is a field fix. Besides, Dometic has said it is normal (to the RV builder and others who have had the problem). I KNOW from experience it is not generally normal. So I am looking for a fix. Have asked Dometic to send a new regulator pipe assembly. Weeeelll see.
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enahs
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03/30/22 12:25pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
Yes, I know that but misspoke. But I am attempting to diagnose the problem. In any adjustment I would use a manometer, Specifically, what does the regulator at the stove do? How is it affected by air pressure? What would shut down the gas to it at high elevation?
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enahs
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03/30/22 10:21am |
Tech Issues
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RE: No gas to cook top
So, from a technical point of view, how does the regulator at the stove work and how could it be affected by air pressure? The tank regulator reduces high tank pressure to about 11 psi I believe. Can that be affected by air pressure (I don't see how). Then at the stove regulator, how could air pressure affect that to restrict all gas flow entirely? Of course, air pressure at the burner would affect that regulator. As I've long understood, you must know how it works if you are going to fix it(aside from looking under the hood and jiggling wires!)
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enahs
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03/30/22 09:41am |
Tech Issues
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