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 > Your search for posts made by 'joe6789' found 30 matches.

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RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

After a long day of splicing wires I finally have the entire setup installed. The Victron inverter/charger is both inverting and charging. Thanks everyone for the help in determining the right setup. It was not without more hiccups today though. The batteries were again dropping to near zero voltage. I called Battle Born, who said the battery management system could be causing this, but they didn't know why. They suggested that the switch (Blue Sea Systems 350A on/off switch) could be bad. I completely removed the switch from the circuit, and that fixed the issue (at least for now). Maybe the switch was falsely tripping the BMS. I may experiment some more with different configurations for the switch.
joe6789 11/05/19 10:27pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

I'm fine ditching the switch. You're right that Victron did not call for it. The purpose was simply to be a master battery disconnect, so I could disconnect ALL loads (not just the inverter) on the battery when the trailer is not in use. But I may have to live without the switch, and manually unhook the battery instead when the trailer is not in use. It would still be good to know what is happening though. I doubt the issue is the switch itself, as it seems to be functioning normally with only the inverter connected through it. My best guesses right now are either: a) Some sort of feature on the inverter, but I'm still not sure how the inverter could possibly be dropping the battery terminal voltage to zero B) Some sort of feature on the Battle Born batteries. They have a built-in battery management system, so maybe the batteries are shutting themselves off for some reason when the switch turns on. I have the workaround for now (only hooking one component through the switch), so I'll proceed with the installation while I'm still figuring out what was going wrong.
joe6789 11/05/19 11:06am Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Well the switch is actually rated for 350A, there's a 300A fuse at the positive terminal, and I'm using 0000 cables that are all very short. So theoretically all these components should be able to manage the current just fine. And right now the inverter isn't even hooked up to any AC loads, so it's only idling at about 0.9A draw.
joe6789 11/05/19 09:01am Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

I'm pretty sure polarity is correct. After experimenting today, I found a workaround to the issue, and I'm able to run both the inverter/charger and the DC loads simultaneously. But I still have no idea why the issue (drop to 0 voltage) was happening. There is a master battery disconnect switch connected to the battery positive terminal. Both the inverter/charger and the DC loads were connected to the output of this switch. So when the switch was turned off, there were no loads, no DC current flowed, and the battery terminal voltage was 13V. When the switch was turned on, power should have been supplied to both the inverter/charger and DC loads, but instead the terminal voltage would drop to almost 0 and neither the inverter/charger nor the DC loads would receive power. What I tried today was to connect the DC loads direct to the positive terminal of the battery instead of the switch, while leaving the inverter/charger connected to the switch -- and the problem went away. Now, when I turn on the switch, the inverter/charger powers on fine, and the DC loads are also running since they are no longer controlled by the switch. In summary, if the inverter/charger and DC loads are switched on together, neither received current and the terminal voltage drops to 0. But if instead the inverter/charger is switched on while the DC loads are already receiving power, then everything works fine. What could be causing this? Is it just a fluke? Perhaps some sort of advanced "feature" inside the Victron inverter/charger? Note the DC loads are only about 0.9 amps and the inverter/charger only draws another 0.9 amps, so the total draw of 1.8 amps is very small.
joe6789 11/04/19 10:33pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Well, per your previous (after hooking up the inverter dc side cabling only - ac side not yet connected) and with the battery voltage initially reading 6v then rapidly dropping to 1 or 2 volts within 10 seconds dropping, that seems like a whole bunch of current going somewhere?? How much current does the victron read when doing this, and does this only occur when you hook up to the dc bussbar ??...(just trying to isolate this a bit). Unfortunately, the Victron shunt does not give a reading when the voltage is at 1-2 volts (nor when the voltage is rapidly dropping from 6, 5, 4...) because the shunt requires some minimum voltage to operate, so it just turns off. Yes, this problem only occurs when I hook up the DC bus bar AND the inverter simultaneously. With only the DC bus bar hooked up (and no inverter), everything looks and works normally. So when either the inverter or the DC bus bar are hooked up, all is good, but when both are hooked up something causes the voltage to drop to almost zero. My understanding is that the negative DC bus bar is connected to the chassis for grounding, and the inverter/charger is also grounded to the chassis. Maybe that common ground is causing an issue. Also, while the DC bus are is connected, as soon as I hook up the inverter, about a quarter of a second later I hear a click from inside the inverter, like a relay or switch is tripping. This could simply be the inverter recognizing that it has too low of voltage (requires minimum of ~10 volts to power on), or maybe it could be a relay that's diverting the power to ground/chassis. Regardless, I still don't fundamentally understand what can cause voltage between battery terminals to temporarily drop to almost 0, and then have it return to normal 13V as soon as a wire is disconnected.
joe6789 11/03/19 10:12pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

How are you measuring the voltage, via victron meter??...Have you installed a shunt (in neg cable), and if so is it wired correctly?? On edit I believe your battery is toast... The auto parts store can do a carbon pile-load test to verify... I have two ways to measure the voltage: a multimeter and a Victron battery monitor shunt. I'm pretty sure the shunt is installed correctly, as I've been using it for a week with no issues (before attempting to install this inverter/charger). I believe the battery is still good. When I disconnect the inverter/charger, the battery returns to the normal 13 volts and powers all my DC loads perfectly. Alternatively, if I disconnect the DC loads and connect ONLY the inverter/charger to the battery, the inverter/charger powers on and shows 120V across its AC out. So in summary, I really think the components are working fine, but there's some sort of issue happening between the inverter/charger and the DC load circuit, perhaps something related to common grounds.
joe6789 11/03/19 07:41pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

dropping 1 or 2 volts is too much for no load. Dropping to 1 or 2 volts is a defective battery or open connection. Where exactly are you measuring the voltage? Inverter should pull no more than 2 amps at idle that might show 0.1 volt drop in battery voltage. Yes, I believe it's some sort of open connection, possibly between the ground of the inverter and the ground of the DC load bus bar. When only the inverter is hooked to the battery, the battery stays at ~13 volts and 0.7 amps are drawn by the inverter at idle. The problem is only when I hook up both the inverter and the normal DC loads -- then the voltage essentially drops to 0. I'm measuring voltage between the positive and negative terminal of the battery. As soon as I hook all the cables up, the multimeter actually shows about 6 volts, but then a second later drops to 5 volts, and continues dropping to 4 volts, 3 volts... and settles at 1 or 2 volts after about 10 seconds. If I disconnect the inverter or disconnect the DC loads, the battery voltage jumps back up to 13 volts and everything functions normally.
joe6789 11/03/19 06:30pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

I'm back with a follow-up question, this time about the DC side. I'm seeing my DC voltage drop to 1 or 2 volts when I've hooked up both the Victron inverter/charger and the DC loads, with all AC wiring completely disconnected. Specifically, positive terminal of battery has one wire going to the inverter/charger positive and one wire going to the positive bus bar, while similarly the negative terminal of the battery has one wire to the inverter/charger negative and one wire to the negative bus bar. Neither the inverter/charger nor the DC loads function when both are connected, since 1 to 2 volts is too low. Battery is fully charged. I see 13V when I disconnect the inverter/charger and only connect the DC loads (e.g. lights). Likewise, I see 13V when I disconnect the DC loads and only connect the inverter/charger. But when BOTH the DC loads and inverter/charger are connected, the voltage across the positive and negative sides drops to 1 to 2 volts. Any ideas what's wrong? I'm thinking it's related the inverter being grounded to chassis and the negative bus bar for the DC loads also being grounded to chassis. Note I have not yet hooked up any AC wiring to the inverter/charger, so the issue must be contained on the DC side. Again, would appreciate if others with more experience could chime in.
joe6789 11/03/19 05:39pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

If there is a short.... the pedestal breaker will open at the same speed as the added breaker. No melted wires, no harm to the inverter. If you are talking about inverted power... the inverter will cut power from the overload as part of the normal internal function. Keep the wire placement clean and professional and you will have no issues. Thanks, that sounds nice and simple!
joe6789 10/21/19 02:21pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

The 50 amp double pole breaker in the rig is a main breaker with the handles tied to gether. If you are set on modifying the existing panel as stated, you would need to remove the existing double pole breaker and install one 50 amp single pole breakers to feed the primary buss. Then install a breaker in the second buss and back-feed into the buss from the inverter. Why is it necessary to have two single pole breakers rather than using the existing double pole breaker? Seems like I should be able to run both lines into the existing double pole breaker, one of which routes through the inverter first.
joe6789 10/21/19 02:20pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

There is no reduction in risk by adding a 2nd, 3rd or 10th circuit breaker in series. What about when a short circuit occurs (and thus the breaker would no longer be in series)? Suppose there is a short in the wires before the breaker panel. In that case huge amounts of current could flow through the MultiPlus charger/inverter without tripping the breaker. If I add a fuse or additional breaker between the power source and the MultiPlus, then the Multiplus would be protected. I'm not an expert but basing this off what I've learned online. Please let me know if that logic is wrong, or if the risk of the type of short circuit I'm describing is too low to warrant installing an additional breaker. Thanks.
joe6789 10/21/19 01:07pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Pedestal has you covered. True, though there are three things I'd potentially be worried about: 1) I've heard that some RV parks might have pedestal lacking the proper protections. 2) I'll occasionally be plugged into a generator. It's 3500W, which theoretically cannot output more than ~30A, but I've heard it can surge at certain times like when it's running out of gas. 3) There could be a short somewhere in the wires prior to the breaker panel, which would fry the inverter. I'm less concerned about #1, because I have a Progressive Industries EMS that I plug into the pedestals which offers its own surge protection. And #2 doesn't seem like that large a risk. But #3 alone (a short circuit) seems to warrant the installation of another fuse or breaker prior to the inverter.
joe6789 10/21/19 12:17pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Follow up question: There are two 50A circuit breakers that each hot leg currently passes through in the breaker panel. But with the upcoming MultiPlus inverter installation, one of the hot legs will route through the inverter before entering that 50A breaker. Since that breaker comes after the inverter, I believe it is no longer sufficient. I believe I'll need to install one additional 50A breaker or fuse before the inverter. Is that correct?
joe6789 10/21/19 11:25am Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

NO. My original comment was a reply on your suggestion to have two neutrals with one of the neutrals not going through the inverter. As shown in the diagram the single neutral goes through the inverter and all is good and properly switched. Excellent, thanks! I think I have enough consensus now to move forward with the installation, once I'm close to a hardware store to buy the supplies (currently traveling). Appreciate the input from everyone.
joe6789 10/18/19 07:30am Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

The drawing does not identify where each of the devices are located. 1)Disconnect the wires(all) that are for the circuit going to the items you want to power off inverter. 2)Connect the inverter to the 120 volt panel in the same location. Phase conductor to the breaker, ground and neutral to their individual buss bars. 3)At the converter, connect the wires from the circuit breaker to the inverter input. 4) Connect the branch circuit to the inverter. This can be done using a cord body plugged into the inverter output.OK but my impression is that the OP plans to connect to half of the RV panel with no other wiring changes at the panel. So he'll manage all of the existing loads like the second A/C on the inverter circuit. While I would rewire the panel and RV apparently the OP doesn't want to use this approach. Yes, that is my plan -- to basically not have to touch the panel and have the inverter power half of it (one of the two hot legs). It happens that all the most important circuits I want to power from the inverter are already on the same leg: the TV, most of the outlets, and the microwave (though the 1500w microwave might be pushing it for my inverter, we'll see). There's also one air conditioner and a fireplace on that leg, but I'll just not turn those on when not connected to shore power. The only circuit on the opposite leg that would be nice to power with the inverter is the kids bedroom outlets, so I might swap that with the fireplace, which should be easy since they each have 15A circuit breakers. Also, one of the circuits is the existing converter, which I'll leave installed but flip that circuit off in the panel and put tape over it, so that it would only be turned on in case the Victron inverter/charger dies.
joe6789 10/17/19 08:25am Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

The drawing is too vague! Yes, it shows coming from a main disconnect through the inverter to a distribution panel. I still say the easiest is to run your one branch circuit from the distribution panel and run it to the inverter output. Yes, you would need to run a feed from the distribution panel to the 120 volt input to the inverter. Enblethen, what do you mean by the Victron diagram being too vague? It seems to show exactly where all the four wires (L1, L2, N, G) need to be routed. Can you please elaborate on your recommended setup? I'm not quite following whether your idea is the same thing I'm considering or something different.
joe6789 10/16/19 11:49pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Yes. This is same as we discussed earlier. Single phase 120v will feed L1 & L2 and close the relay for normal operation on 30 amp service. Thanks Time2roll. Let me follow up on something you said earlier: "I believe Neutral needs to be switched during inverter operation to prevent back feeding" How does that relate to the above diagram from Victron? Do you think an extra transfer switch needs to be added, or do you think the Multiplus will safely handle it on its own?
joe6789 10/16/19 11:44pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Thanks everyone for your advice. I just heard back from Victron via email. I think I understand their response but it would be helpful if anyone else could confirm I'm interpreting correctly. I had asked them whether the neutral wire needs to be branched, so that line 1 and line 2 have separate neutral wires into the breaker box and potentially even separate neutral bus bars. Sounds like the answer is "No" -- to simply run line 2 direct to the breaker box without its own separate neutral/ground, and then run line 1 through the inverter along with neutral and ground. Victron's exact response: For proper current measurement and control, as well a preventing multiple return paths, it is advised to run the ground an N through the Multi without branching off to the L2 line first: https://cdn1.imggmi.com/uploads/2019/10/16/bdfefc178598e6fdf0d329444c604cd3-full.png 1) Only one side of the distribution panel would be powered by the inverter when not plugged in. Also no 240V inverter loads are possible with just one Multi. 2) If you only have single-phase 120V input available, make sure it is on the L1 line through the Multi. If you try to run it to the L2, the open input relay on the Multi will prevent a complete circuit. You would want it this way for charging anyway. Does that all make sense? In the image he sent, it looks like the power source is coming from a breaker box on the right rather than a shore power cord, but I assume the answer would be the same in a shore power or generator sourced setup. The other thing that could be troubling is his point #2. Let's say I'm using a 30A to 50A adapter cord to to plug into 30A shore power or a generator... my understanding is the the adapter provides (a smaller amount of) current into both legs of the 50A cord. So I don't think his point about the open input relay preventing a complete circuit would apply in that case, since both L1 and L2 would be receiving power. Again, would appreciate if others have comments. This seems to be the simplest possible setup for me. It doesn't require installing a separate breaker box. I'll simply need a little junction box so I can splice and extend the L1, N, & G to the inverter and back. Thanks, Joe
joe6789 10/16/19 11:28am Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

No, there would be no sub-panel. The breaker in the inverter would act as one. Yes, it would be much easier and safer! What is make and model of the inverter you have in mind? I have the Victron MultiPlus Compact 2000 watt, which is a combined inverter and converter/charger. Product page: https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-12v-24v-48v-800va-3kva Manual: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Manual-MultiPlus-Compact-2000-120V-EN.pdf
joe6789 10/10/19 11:58pm Tech Issues
RE: Wiring neutral/ground when splitting panel for MultiPlus?

Time2roll, just to be clear, that means L2 would go direct to the panel with no neutral and no ground going alongside it. Correct? This is exactly how I initially planned to wire it, but I've seen some suggestions that L2 needs its own neutral and grounds rather than relying on the neutral and ground coming out of the inverter.Not sure what you mean by "alongside". L1,N,G take a detour though the inverter and continue to the main panel. I would assume as L1, N, G emerge from the inverter and continue to the main panel they would be physically alongside L2. Sorry, by "alongside" I meant N and G literally taking the same path as L2 (not through inverter). Yes, eventually the N and G return from the inverter and would indeed be physically next to L2. However I've seen advice saying there should be separate N and G that do not detour through the inverter.
joe6789 10/10/19 11:53pm Tech Issues
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