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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
@benny37, I have to laugh. I understand fully what body panel alignment is as well.
The funny part is while I’ve never driven a Tesla, you can’t swing a dead cat around here without hitting (seeing) one.
I have never once looked at one and thought, ugh that door gap is something only a mother could love….
Idk, pretty weak argument imo.
Coming from someone like me who’s decidedly pro dead dinosaurs vehicles, if one has to say stupid things to try to support their decision or argument, it’s time to pick another fight….
Grit agreed, I live in Tesla heaven, CA Wine Country. On a daily basis I see more of them now than say Camrys. In my neighborhood of 220 homes there are at least a dozen now 80% Model Ys.
There is a 12 stall Supercharger in the shopping center right outside the entrance to our development. Average 4 cars there at a time. There is no towing accessible stall so that will be entertaining when it comes about. I can’t recall ever seeing a Tesla towing anything around here though. Being a manual wheelchair user I thought it was cool they have an Accessible stall. The bummer is I have never seen a more cheated spot.
I was 40 year Maintenance Tech on Bizjets so I have a good eye for detail and I think the panel gap deal is over blown. Maybe early on.
I will say the only Tesla I’ve ever seen on a tow truck was Model X with one of the Falcon doors half open.
Let me explain my point of view on the matter. The point is not the panel gap, it is the reason why there is a panel gap. It simply talks about how good the dimensional control of the stamping process and the designs is. Fit & finish simply tell you how well everything comes toghether. For us, the guys forged in the automotive industry, that is the tell sign of a vehicle that was design with an inmature process.
Normally you make the assumption that the rest of the systems have the same issue, and it shows in the statistics. Testa is the leader in Electric vehicles technology and software, but the rest of the vehicle is 3 to 4 times worse than the industry average, showing the exact problem that the "big gaps" insinuate: inmature design and process.
The other automakers don't have such as many electrical, suspension, doors, or lights issues because they have been building vehicles for a long time.
The best example is the Nissan Leaf. The car is bullet-proof. Unbeatable from every angle, except the battery technology. Due to lack of cooling, unpropperly used batteries would significantly degrade rapidly. (And most people are unaware on how to use it). Tesla has a great battery system in comparison.
Today you can find Leafs in Europe with 300K miles stil with original everything, exccept the battery.
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map40
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01/24/23 11:08am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks
There seems to be a lot of peripheral arguments both for and against EV's. As run100 just posted above its hard to get all the facts about EV's, but to me math does not lie. So, if you look at it in simple terms and compare apples to apples most EV's that I have looked at take 30 KW's to drive 100 miles. In my state they just raised my electric rate to 33 cents per KW. So, to drive 100 miles in an EV it cost $9.90. My Rav4 hybrid gets 42 MPGs on average, so it takes 2.4 gals to drive 100 miles. At $3.00/gal that is $7.20 at $4.00/gal that is $9.60. That is not cheaper for me where I live. When I looked at a tesla several years ago, I plotted a trip to Florida. Their GPS gives you all the charging stations along the way. They varied from 34 to 50 cents /KW which I'm sure by now they have gone up also. At 50 cents a KW it would cost $15 for every 100 you travel. $225 from CT to Florida vs $144 in my RAV4 at $4.00/gal. So, unless you live in a low-cost state, have access to free charging and don't drive long trips where you need a fast charger, to me an EV is not cheaper to drive.
And if those are the numbers I would have done exactly the same thing. I pay less than $0.07 per kw, so I would use $2.10 for charging 30kw, and with that I do 120 to 150 miles. For me, it was a no brainer also. But that is only my case, and as I said, I only look at my pocket and my convenience when I decide to buy my car. EVs are not for everybody, they can't be.
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map40
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01/22/23 05:10pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks
We own a hybrid that gets 42-mpg and completely love it! It's quiet, economical and a pleasure to drive. Trying to determine where and how everything we own or consume is made, and under what conditions, is beyond my ability.
Add on top of that the never ending lies and attempts to manipulate the population, not based on facts, but to accomplish ones own quest for power and money, regardless of reality or the impact on others. Again, that's a lot to sift through! I'm just trying to make it through each work day and put food on the table!
Agreed!!! Everybody looks at their side of the equation and figure out their own need. My pocket, my convenience, my decision...
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map40
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01/22/23 05:04pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
I am the OP. I just read through the entire thread again. You still haven't convinced me that you can replace all vehicles with electric or hydrogen, then rebuild the entire infrastructure system converting natural gas to hydrogen or building the new electric transmission lines for less money than onsite production of hydrocarbons as a refinery feedstock at renewable energy facilities.
I think with both hydrogen and EV's, the cost of fleet replacement and building the support infrastructure are vastly under estimated. My way, you pay as you go. It is invisible to the consumer.
Nobody will be able to because it is not possible with the current technology at this time in the current technology development path. EVs are great for commuting and city traffic, but they fail with heavy load and long trips (which makes them quite difficult to use towing a trailer or fifth wheel).
Hydrogen is a great technology, but the only cost effective technology is direct sea water extraction and there is no solution for distribution in place yet, so we are looking between 10 to 20 years at best.
To your original question, from a person familiar with EVs and Hydrogen technology (and a long time owner of both), neither technology can replace ICEs today for the RVs application in most cases.
Now, if you have a very light trailer and are willing to put up with the charging, there are really good EVs that could work (some postings have actually shown). Besides that, Not currently available on my point of view.
(And as I normally say, my point of view is my pocket and my convenience; I will use any technology that is cheaper to own and as convenient for me than the alternatives)
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map40
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01/22/23 04:55pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
You Chicken little men are too much. A Tesla semi breaks down and you want to scrap the entire program. I wonder if Kenworth had this bashing when there first truck broke down!
Funny thing is we have large wrecker companies, trucker down website and all kinds of resources dedicated to repairing over the road semi trucks.
Why?............Because they break down! They all breakdown. I don't think the Tesla Semi truck sky is falling just yet!Yeah, but how many of the Tesla semi's on the road have broken down? Percentage-wise what would that be? :)
You are not making a point, you are just showing how ridiculous this stupid discussion is. Do you want the percentage of produced trucks? Why not based on estimated lifespan?
You guys may not like the Tesla Semi, neither do I. But that does not change the fact that is made from a company that weather you like it or not brought a technology to market and became the fastest growing automotive company in history.
Nobody does that unless they do something right.
The semi has a lot of points against it, it needs a special charger, the range is limited, is an emerging technology in the segment. But I'm sure that even with that there will be applications in which it will work better than a regular semi, even if it is for just 1% of the applications that is a lot of trucks.
The point is: stop the ridiculous bashing of a unproven new vehicle. Nobody knows yet what is going to happens with it. But if they only capture 0.25% of the market they will have enough demand to produce their forecast. Last time they took this bet they took the title of the #1 luxury carmaker in USA from Mercedes and BMW COUNTING THEIR WHOLE LINEUP.
Unless you think you are smarter than Mercedes, BMW and all their customers and history wont repeat itself....
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map40
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01/21/23 01:16pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
It is a new product, but Tesla was never known by their quality. Or said a different way, their quality is sub-par at best, statistically speaking.
That said, there is no need to troll...
Right on!! So when FedX “absolutely, positively has to be there overnight” can I assume that they won't use a Tesla Semi? After all "Tesla was never known by their quality. Or said a different way, their quality is sub-par at best, statistically speaking." (your words not mine)
So if you had to have a pacemaker put in your chest, would you want one that is "sub-par at best"? Or do you want one that will 100% be the very best and reliable pacemaker on the market?
Unlike people that put up with their electric cars that don't work, the shipping world is MUCH less forgiving x's the 100th power.
I'm much like the shipping world. I just signed a retainer for a lawyer because my electric car maker moved my fix date out another 2 months. In two months it will be a year that my car has been in the shop. Nice hu? :S
I understand you are not happy about your car and that you have a personal problem with the Tesla semi, but I said nothing to disagree with you. Further more, kind of agreed with you. Yet again, you are giving me attitude? All in generic statements, not precise normalized data? Whether you like it or not there are several electric cars that have demonstrated above average reliability (this coming from a guy who drove a Town Car for 530K miles)
I feel bad for you and your negative experience, but as I said, there is no need to troll. And you can keep the attitude to yourself...
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map40
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01/21/23 09:59am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Tesla was never known by their quality.
Any one I ever looked at close, no matter the model,3, X, S, doesn't matter, had the worst job of body panel alignment I've ever seen. They need to go to a good body shop for a going over before they ever hit the road. The body panels were aligned better on 1970's Ford Mavericks and Pintos.
Agreed. Their fit and finish was awful at the beginning and it is barely acceptable now. Systems besides the electric powertrain have a track record 3 times less reliable than the industry average, and the repairs are very difficult unless in a Tesla dealership and even then they are incredible slow.
But I have a particular point of view, quite simple. If so many people are buying them, there must be something good about them. And there is; they are incredible cars. Otherwise, why would people buy so many of them?
Now that the rest of the industry is catching up they are going to be more pressed to improve (right now is the first time in which they are not behind in orders), but when you had 99% of the market 10 years ago you can only loose market share.
For the purpose of this thread, we already made the point that EVs are good for some applications. Some people can successfully use them to tow light trailers, but when you get to heavy trailers (5000# or more) the current technology is not too convenient.
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map40
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01/21/23 08:29am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Cr@p, now my Cheetos are going to be late!! What is going on here? Been out a month and they are already breaking down.
Musk said that the drivetrain is guaranteed to last 1 million miles and it happens to share many components with Tesla’s passenger vehicles.
Well hell. That didn't age well!!
It looks like the Tesla Semi is going to be the new Windows ME. Or perhaps the the Iphone 5C?
Oops, this is a towing forum so I will say maybe the Tesla Semi will be the newer 5.7 Olds diesel or the Ford 6.0 diesel? :B
Now come on fan bois start with the "it's a new product and there are bound to be problems." Go on.....lets hear the Tesla fans!!!
It is a new product, but Tesla was never known by their quality. Or said a different way, their quality is sub-par at best, statistically speaking.
That said, there is no need to troll...
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map40
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01/21/23 06:21am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
“ Another factor is the integrity of the steel pipes and fittings. Depending on the quality of the steel and potential exposure to atomic hydrogen, in principle, embrittlement can accelerate propagation of cracks, reducing the pipeline’s service life by 20 to 50 percent. This is only likely, though, if the pipeline already has fractures and is subjected to dynamic stresses due to fluctuating internal pressure while at the same time being exposed to atomic hydrogen. The confluence of all three factors seems unlikely, however: Under normal operating conditions, there should be little load alternation, and only molecular hydrogen (H2).”
https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2020/repurposing-natural-gas-infrastructure-for-hydrogen.html
Retrofit solutions for pipelines:
https://www.enbridge.com/stories/2022/may/enbridge-invests-in-smartpipe-pipeline-retrofit-enabling-co2-hydrogen-transportation
Thanks for sharing, they are quite interesting. I heard of the kits b4 but did not know they were using them
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map40
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01/20/23 05:27am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Not sure what NG pipelines are made of but there’s the issue of Hydrogen Embrittlement.
Per Wikipedia;
Hydrogen embrittlement (HE), also known as hydrogen-assisted cracking or hydrogen-induced cracking (HIC), is a reduction in the ductility of a metal due to absorbed hydrogen. Hydrogen atoms are small and can permeate solid metals. Once absorbed, hydrogen lowers the stress required for cracks in the metal to initiate and propagate, resulting in embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement occurs most notably in steels, as well as in iron, nickel, titanium, cobalt, and their alloys. Copper, aluminium, and stainless steels are less susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement.
I did not know that. Thanks!
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map40
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01/20/23 05:24am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Rivian R1S
After a bit more reading... Rivian seems to no longer endorse four-down towing of the vehicles. :(
Bollinger had made the same comments and then shifted out of the personal market to focus on commercial.
There are no EVs that can be towed on all four wheels that I am aware of.
Can anybody tell what the issue is that would prevent flat towing? For years, ICE cars was the transmission did not lube itself unless the input shaft was spinning. Which implied spin the engine. EVs don't have transmission, so that's no problem. No disconnect between wheel and motor? Well spinning the motor, with no power to it, does no harm, as long does not exceed speed it would normally run. (Going to tow faster than you would drive?) Steering and brakes would be no more complicated than ICE.
Most EVs have an electric clutch (or connect/ disconect) between the wheels and the transmission. They don't have many components but they have a single or in some cases a 2 speed transmission (very simple, nothing like what am ICE has)
Due to the high torque of the electric motors, the traction control systems are much more complex than ICE's and monitor wheel speeds with a much higher frequency and precision.
The same problem happens with the regenerative breaking in snowy/icy condition. It is very easy to loose traction on ice and as it is involuntary (meaning the driver does not press the brake or anything else, it is activated automatically) so the system is monitoring not only the wheel speed independently several thousand times per second, it also triangulates with GPS and accelerometers to ensure the wheels are always "in traction".
All of this said, the problem is that flat towing something that complex may create unforseen problems, so lawyers said "How many more sales are you going to get by allowing flat towing? Is it really worth the risk?" And the answer was always "No".
There is no inherent technical reason (like the transmission in an ICE), it is simply "Why risk it, we are selling every unit before its built..."
I have towed one of my leafs and one of my BMW but just to see how fast did they charge, and o boy did they complained!
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map40
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01/19/23 11:05pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Rivian R1S
I drove an R1S today (factory demo). Like all EVs the acceleration was mind blowing. I believe it can do a pretty good job towing, they told me 9000# (no door sticker as it was a preproduction model), except for the already mentioned problem of range and recharge with the trailer in tow.
It is nice inside, drives really good, great suspension, excellent handling. When you floor the pedal you just can't stop smiling. You just can't describe the feeling of driving at supercar speeds with the whole family and the dogs
Now, I still believe that for most RVers it won't be a good fit. You are paying over $100k for a tow vehicle that will need to recharge every few hours. I would take a Durango or Grand Cherokee Hellcat and tow as much as I want.
But if you can accommodate the range and the price it would make a heck of a tow vehicle!
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map40
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01/19/23 10:28pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: Slides out or autolevelers down first?
Reccomendations from the manufacturer will vary depending on several factors, but the most important is the structural integrity of the vehicle with the slides in vs the slides out.
Some RVs (mainly the ones with a lower cost) use the slide out closed as part of the structure. In these cases you need to level first and open the slide outs afterwards because the slides need to be part of the structure. The only issue is that when you open the slideouts the weight distribution will change and the RV might stress a little on one jack or even move if you are on soft ground.
The RVs in which the slideout wall is not part of the structure (a bus chassis for example) don't need the wall of the slideout to be in to maintain structure, so it is better to level the RV with the slides out to ensure great weight distribution.
I always believed that the safest bet is always to level first and open slideout afterwards, but me driving an Alfa, when the 4 feet slideout monster comes out you absolutelly can feel the RV change position...
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map40
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01/19/23 01:25pm |
Class A Motorhomes
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
D
Pardon, I read your omission of hydro as serious. Norway and Sweden have ample hydro resources and Norway will be building a 100% green hydrogen pipeline to Germany. Sweden is already producing 100% green hydrogen steel at their Hybrit plant and shipping to Volvo.
Got it. No, I simply was trying to simplify the explanation, but you are right they are included.
Again, don't get me wrong, I believe hydrogen is the most promising technology to really replace fosil fuel, but I believe that we are still a few decades away. In the meantime EVs (in all their forms) will increase (where it makes sense).
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map40
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01/19/23 10:32am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
D
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map40
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01/19/23 09:22am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Green: produced with renewable energy. The most expensive production method and the most inconsistent as wind and solar are not constant. For this reason Green hydrogen production normally uses also fosil fuel when renewable energy is not available to keep the production equipment running otherwise the investment never pays off. This forces Green hydrogen to produce between 25 to 50% of Carbon emmisions than Fosil Fuel production because they run 25 to 50% of the time on fosil fuel.
Not sure where you got this definition but it is false. Green hydrogen is only green if it is made with renewable energy. If there is some fossil fuel involved then it is termed ‘low carbon’. And you forgot the renewables hydro and geothermal power, which of course have 100% availability. And hydro is inexpensive power.
There are multiple types of electrolyzers, PEM, alkaline, and solid oxide. Of the 3 only PEM can ramp its power input rapidly up and down to follow fluctuations in renewable power input.
There is also ‘pink’ hydrogen which is that produced using nuclear power.
The definition comes from the European Commision of energy. The US secretary of energy has a less detail definition, stating that is has to be green, but no further details. Reality is that once you connect to the grid (instead of your own power) you don't know what you are using. As far as hydro and thermal energy, they are normally used at 100%, so any variance energy consumption is produced by Fosil.
As far as the electrolizers, if you are using electrolizers means that you are controling the reaction and you are not doing direct extraction, which means that production of hydrogen is more expensive that gasoline. That is why I made the comment that the best aternative is direct extraction. You control the production by controling the energy and the energy is constant being produced at the extraction point from the ocean floor. That is what makes it economically viable.
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map40
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01/19/23 09:04am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
And we keep hearing "green hydrogen". Are you talking about methods of production, or the color? Does it store different than blue? Or Red?
Green hydrogen is defined by the type of energy used for it's production. Hydrogen casn be:
White: Naturally occuring (Not easy to find or use)
Black: Produce by Coal
Grey: Produced from Methane
Brown: Lignite
All of these are using FOSIL FUEL (and almost 95% of current hydrogen production)
Blue: Methane (Fosil Fuel) but the Carbon Monoxide is not released in the atmosphere (less than 1% of current use)
Green: produced with renewable energy. The most expensive production method and the most inconsistent as wind and solar are not constant. For this reason Green hydrogen production normally uses also fosil fuel when renewable energy is not available to keep the production equipment running otherwise the investment never pays off. This forces Green hydrogen to produce between 25 to 50% of Carbon emmisions than Fosil Fuel production because they run 25 to 50% of the time on fosil fuel.
So what is the solution? Direct sea water extraction with sea current power generation. Underwater power generation using sea water current never stops and it is quite reliable. The latest technology development allows for Hydrogen production directly from sea water without processing it. This will make the best source of hydrogen because it won't be Fosil Fuel dependant and it does not need water conditioning.
This is also the only possible way currently to produce hydrogen at pricess competitivelly to gasoline pricess. All other production methods produce hydrogen at a net cost higher than gasoline.
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map40
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01/19/23 06:28am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Heres one for hydrogen fans
For some reason it never made onto any tv news
https://youtu.be/LH8GYsVl81Y
Yeap, that is the biggest negative point Hydrogen has. There are several cases, you just need to Google hydrogen explosions...
That is also the number one problem for the NHTSA. How much hydrogen can the allow in a vehicle, how deep inside the body, what type of cage, all that good stuff they have to do to move a car from experimental to mass production
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map40
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01/19/23 04:07am |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
I think getting away from burning fossil fuel is necessary for human population to continue. But statements that are on their face false is not the way to educate. Solar panels will not produce unless sun shines on them. Storage is another issue, not same as production.
And we keep hearing "green hydrogen". Are you talking about methods of production, or the color? Does it store different than blue? Or Red?
But abandoned natural gas lines back in service? And from what I understand higher pressures than originally used?
And what really makes me ask questions is do we understand the difference between a ad and press release?
1) Fair enough. I changed the word ‘produce’ to ‘contribute’.
2).Color of hydrogen indicates production method. It all results in the same H2, hydrogen.
3). Pipelines can be reused or relined. Europe seems ahead in that regard.
4). Hydrogen blending in a natural gas pipeline already occurs in Canada. Enbridge.
5). Hydrogen cars, vans, and large box trucks already exist. All available in Europe. Hydrogen fueling stations exist. Also the US in California.
My target is a replacement AWD vehicle that is 100% clean energy. No range loss in cold weather and fast refueling during road trips. Probably hybrid hydrogen with some plug in electric range such as 50 miles.
There are 106 Hydrogen stations in USA, all in California, all close to the coast except for one close to Reno.
The unused natural gas lines will need to be checked and repaired before being used. They are equipped with leak detection based of components of natural gas, but hydrogen does not have it and so far can't be added, that is why they have to mix it with natural gas and later separate it. Fixing the lines is doable, but will take time and, of course, natural gas (the only way to detect leaks)
Also the pressure for transporting hydrogen is higher than natural gas and they are not even sure if all components in the system can take it.
You might be able to get Hydrogen in 5 years along the west coast line, but I don't know how far north.
If direct extraction works the gulf would be the perfect place to produce it and have several distribution point along the extensive coast. East coast would be next, but currently there are no pipe lines running across like in California.
Getting hydrogen lines would be just the first step. After that we will need the stations. I would say to begin at least 500 stations in the south, just to get started.
The great lakes in the north could help in the production and distribution points. I would say around 700 stations to cover the north and center and 200 for more populated areas for overflow.
That will get you close to the supercharging stations that Tesla installed. Just keep in mind, having a network comparable with Tesla is not enough because Tesla had the advantage the everybody could charge their cars at home.
Now, we could develop a home hydrogen generator for home based on the same design that Honda did for the CNG vehicles, but the problem is that a home generator will consume a lot of power, hydrogen is far more dangerous than natural gas and the home station took 10 hours to provide enough fuel for 70 miles because it took a lot of time to get to such high pressure and hydrogen is even higher; so it might not even be possible.
Just the stations would be $4B, the production and distribution around $10B. Time 15 years if things go right and money is available.
It is doable and I hope it happens because I believe is a better alternative than going full electric, but it will take time.
It will also depend on politics. Hopefully Hydrogen does not get tagged as a political argument for one party because that will only make it worse.
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map40
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01/18/23 07:13pm |
Tow Vehicles
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RE: EV alternative for light/medium duty trucks
Huntingdog,
Even HERE in the cloudy rainy Seattle area. The few I know that have roof top solar, figure they've paid for the system in savings 3-5 yrs down the road. Use less of the power grid power. Maybe saving a salmon or two or three. Probably not......
The question I would have for your neighbors, is what % savings are they seeing? Yrs before an ROI hits pocket book? No one that I know with a roof top solar expects a full "I'm off the grid" from solar. On some days in summer, they do produce more than the use. I'm having personally a hard time seeing the bad part of residential solar.
It will help. Solve the WHOLE problem being discussed? NO! Every bit helps
MartyI wasn't talking about the financial aspects (though that does't make sense either) but what Ramble was claiming that a certain amount of solar could totally replace non green power. Everyone thinks that solar will produce rated power. Those of us that have solar on our RVs, know that is not true...There is also a belief that a place like Phoenix is 100% perfect for solar.. Also not true. Though their is plenty of sunshine, there is also plenty of heat. As panels heat up, output drops. So when you really need maximum output from the panels to supply the AC, at the hottest part of the day, you will not get rated output.
As a case in point: My RV when at home in Phoenix has NEVER even come close to rated output. About 1300 watts out of 1860 is the best it can do. I have seen slighty more than rated output in May, at 9000 ft. where it is cool.
Agreed. Here in FL they sold a lot of systems and convinced people that they would "make money". Nope, they didn't.
Don't get me wrong, I have installed at least 10 solar systems in RVs for friends and I am a firm believer that if you need power Solar is a great resource. But also every system was designed with the posibility to charge from every concievable power source (DC 12V to 450V and AC 110-240V 15-50 AMPS) because we know that solar on it's own is not enough, you need something else.
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map40
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01/18/23 05:47am |
Tow Vehicles
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