* This post was edited 05/15/09 11:20am by RN Enigma *
Look at like this...if the whole thing would have burned down then they would have given you a depreciated value for the RV too.
Stupid Q...this is YOUR insurance??? i would have filed a claim with the CG's insurance. Maybe they'd have been a bit more generous?
I actually think "shutdown" has nail the problem. Why are you filing through YOUR insurance company is the RV Parking Lot is at fault? If you DO file through your policy THEY should still be responsible for your deductible.
Wow, I NEVER thought I'd be defending an insurance company
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do you use a surge protector? i personally don't but most on here recomend it wondering how often something like this happens maybe not to the extent of starting a fire but blowing out some componenets.
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It is not up to the park manager to decide whether they are assuming liability or not. The claim should be turned in to the park's insurance company and they determine liability. If the manager will not give you information concerning their company, then your next step is to sue the park and I'll bet he will give you the information you need.
Concerning depreciation: there were many good answers. Please do not equate your replacement cost homeowners policy with your RV policy. You can get replacement cost policies for RVs, but usually they cannot be over 5 years old and then you will pay a fortune for them. RVs and things like that are market value policies and not replacement cost policies.
If it were me, though, I would first go after the park. Good luck.
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RN Enigma wrote:
In answer. We were all told by the RV park office manager that they would not be assuming responsibility. Yes, that was also a shock to me since we never signed anything or read anything where it says they are not liable for faulty power lines. It would seem to me that any campground that provides amperage of any kind to RV's should at the very least bear some burden of proof that their power boxes and lines are regularly serviced. There were several RV's that had damage to the same surge. None of us had surge protectors, but...I can tell you this....we ALL do NOW! Live and Learn as I did with signing on the dotted line with the insurance policy.
In answer. We were all told by the RV park office manager that they would not be assuming responsibility. Yes, that was also a shock to me since we never signed anything or read anything where it says they are not liable for faulty power lines. It would seem to me that any campground that provides amperage of any kind to RV's should at the very least bear some burden of proof that their power boxes and lines are regularly serviced. There were several RV's that had damage to the same surge. None of us had surge protectors, but...I can tell you this....we ALL do NOW! Live and Learn as I did with signing on the dotted line with the insurance policy.
they can 'say' anything they want but at the end of the day it was a malfunction of their equipment. unless you 'agreed' (I use quotes because your paper work given to you at check in may say it and you may not have noticed) to hold them faultless in such event they are at fault. they pay! I'd seriously look at filing some sort of claim with their insurnace co. I'd be a thorn in their side, as in calling them every day twice a day till they gave me some satification.
If that doesn't work maybe a strongly worded letter from a lawyer may get their attention. Its your choice to take it that far, as it may cost you more than its worth.
Three important questions you have to know BEFORE you buy a policy is:
1. What is Covered?
2. How much coverage for each section of the policy?
3. How is it paid in a claim?
If you don't ask them, then there isn't much you can do except sit down with your policy after the fact and read all the different ways they are screwing you because you didn't bother to check yourself.
Not all policies are the same, many have different types of payouts for losses. So one company like ours, would pay Replacement cost on items like that and others pay ACV.
One thing to check
Sometimes the company will pay you ACV until you replace the items and then pay the difference in a supplemental. Check with them and see if that is the case.
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If the fault on the problem was really the CG wiring, you may be able to take them to small claims court to recover the delta between your insurance coverage and actual expenses. That is usually a pretty small investment compared to a civil suit kind of a situation. The threat of any court action might make the owner/manager more tractable.
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Have you checked the warranty for your surge protector?
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PopBeavers wrote:
Some surge protectors will replace any damaged electronics that they failed to protect.
Have you checked the warranty for your surge protector?
Some surge protectors will replace any damaged electronics that they failed to protect.
Have you checked the warranty for your surge protector?
Regretfully, we did not have the surge protector before this happened. But we do now! As do now, the several other RV's that experienced damage.
"Sometimes the company will pay you ACV until you replace the items and then pay the difference in a supplemental. Check with them and see if that is the case."
Aridon hits on a key point often misunderstood on Homeowner Replacement policies--if your electronics are being settled under your off premise homeowner personal property coverage, you may indeed have to take ACV payment until you actually replace the items, like quality and kind, when the difference would be paid to you.
In the heat of the claim this provision of policy is often misinterpreted by the claimant to mean that their "stuff" is going to be depreciated when in fact, that is not the case.
That provision is in your policy to prevent insureds from remodeling, re-equiping, and re-wardrobing themselves every few years. If insurance companies simply paid out the full replacement without requiring actual replacement of the items lost they would be putting their customers in a severe moral risk. Imagine how much you could get for all that "stuff" you have around that you never use if that check was automatically written!
In the park I am in now, the power company owns the wire to the pedestal and the meter base and the pedestal, breakers and receptacles are owned by the park…
If your company makes a full recovery they should refund your deductible, but they have little incentive with a claim this size… with your deductible and the offer they get from the CG insurance will most likely leave them near whole and you being the biggest loser...
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But here's something to consider. Consider what they owe you versus what your insurance company would pay. They are not the same thing. For example, under liability you are due the depreciated value of everything that was damaged. What your company pays you is based on the contract you have with them. If you have a replacement cost policy, then you want to go through your company because they will pay the replacement cost while the negligent party's insurance will only pay actual cash value. It can work the other way too, though. There may be something you are legally entitled to recover from the liable party that is not part of your own contract, and so that might make you choose to go through their company. If the other company won't accept liability, you might just decide it's easier to go through your own company than to fight them on it. It's different in every case.
Here's another thing to consider. A few people said you should go through your company for the main claim and then directly to the CG's company to get your deductable back. Don't do that. Your company will try to get the entire loss back from the other company (including your deductable) in a process called subrogation. Your contract with your company says that you will not do anything to interfere with them doing that. If you do (e.g. signing a release to get your deductable back), then you may void your contract with your own company. Either go completely through their company or completely through yours unless you have your company's written permission to seek your deductable directly.
My last thought is to reiterate what several others have said. It's not up to the CG whether they're liable. If you want to fight for it, then you can do some of the things people suggested. If not, then you can just go through your company and you may or may not get your deductable back. Assume you won't so that if it arrives one day, you'll have a pleasant surprise.
JJBIRISH wrote:
In the park I am in now, the power company owns the wire to the pedestal and the meter base and the pedestal, breakers and receptacles are owned by the park…
In the park I am in now, the power company owns the wire to the pedestal and the meter base and the pedestal, breakers and receptacles are owned by the park…
Thats interesting and good to know.
But if you look through most posts about insurance most people only talk about what company and what price do you pay. Seldom do they even mention the actual coverages or know the details of the coverages.
CJ5 jeeper wrote:
I do not have a surge protector for the whole motorhome, but I went to ACE and purchased surge protectors for all my plugged in appliances.
I do not have a surge protector for the whole motorhome, but I went to ACE and purchased surge protectors for all my plugged in appliances.
Jeeper, you realize that while all those surge protectors you purchased are better than nothing, not one of them is going to protect things that the juice flows to prior to getting to a surge protector, like the inverter, refer, furnace motor and controls, etc.
The best thing is to have a surge protector on the shore power cable before any problems on the local grid can get into your rig. I was shocked at the price of a good surge protector for the whole rig, but I bit the bullet and I don't have to worry about it any more.
RN Enigma, I too have experienced problems with a local business a few years ago. I wound up having to take them to small claims court. I didn't prevail, I think 'cuz the judge wasn't paying attention (kind of like that one on Boston Legal, that will "have no jibber-jabber in my courtroom) and the defendant just plain lied.
After the hearing, I saw their corporate attorney in the hallway, and told them that they just bought themselves some free advertising. This little punk the corporation sent to protect one of their franchisees didn't have a clue, as was evident by the look on his face.
I went to WM the very day of the hearing, bought some of the large day-glow green poster boards and a really wide tip magic marker, made some signs, and put them in each of the rear side windows of my truck.
The signs said something like "An oil change at K*** K** cost me $1450! Ask me how!"
I was VERY surprised at the number of people that stopped me in the grocery store parking lot to ask what the signs were all about.
This little incident cost me $1450 in repairs to the transfer case on my truck, but it wound up costing them their entire business.
While I'm not going to claim complete responsibility for it, this particular company was out of business in four months. I like to think I had at least a little to do with their demise.
While you can't force them to give up their insurance company info to you, you might still be able to collect enough information to make them think twice.
Such as: I bet they've got official documents "posted in a conspicuous place" than may help in getting a foothold for your case. Documents like state or locally issued licenses that are required to be posted where the public can see them.
Also, it might be worthwhile to gather a little information from the internet on web sites that post consumer's ratings on a particular campground. Comments, observances, problems, etc. There are lots of web sites that do this, and compiling a list of these web sites could help your cause. As more or less of a last resort just prior to a lawsuit, present them with this list and tell them that THEY might want to consider some "free advertising".
And on the bright side, I found out that day that Wal-Mart is good for SOMETHING.
Filed a claim with the insurance and they paid to have the whole vehicle rewired front to rear.
However, they wouldnt pay to replace the part, starter soleniod, that caused the fire.
Just doesnt make sense.
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the power surge would come from the 'public utility' NOT from the CG, outside of a CG owned sub transformer failing, i don't think there is anything in a CG that could cause a voltage surge/spike that could do what your talking about.
too small a wiring should cause low voltage / brown outs,
wasn't there a post on here last year about a power surge at a campground in Utah, i think the upshot on that , was that weather / lighting strike on the power grid many miles away cause the spike and the utility company denied all claims as it cannot control the weather
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !
....
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donee wrote:
Although its not as drastic, damage wise, as the OP, we had a 69 Bronco that had a short in the engine bay and caught fire.
Filed a claim with the insurance and they paid to have the whole vehicle rewired front to rear.
However, they wouldnt pay to replace the part, starter soleniod, that caused the fire.
Just doesnt make sense.
Although its not as drastic, damage wise, as the OP, we had a 69 Bronco that had a short in the engine bay and caught fire.
Filed a claim with the insurance and they paid to have the whole vehicle rewired front to rear.
However, they wouldnt pay to replace the part, starter soleniod, that caused the fire.
Just doesnt make sense.
Yes it does--that is how the policy reads--repair the damage caused by......"smoke", "Fire",....... Same thing on a homeowners policy, if your water heater malfunctions and floods your house, the insurance will cover the damage but not the water heater.
Insurance companies are not going to quarantee and warranty cars and car parts or pipes, fridges, or water heaters in homes.
You buy insurance to repair damages to your property.
RN Enigma wrote:
In answer. We were all told by the RV park office manager that they would not be assuming responsibility. Yes, that was also a shock to me since we never signed anything or read anything where it says they are not liable for faulty power lines. It would seem to me that any campground that provides amperage of any kind to RV's should at the very least bear some burden of proof that their power boxes and lines are regularly serviced. There were several RV's that had damage to the same surge. None of us had surge protectors, but...I can tell you this....we ALL do NOW! Live and Learn as I did with signing on the dotted line with the insurance policy.
In answer. We were all told by the RV park office manager that they would not be assuming responsibility. Yes, that was also a shock to me since we never signed anything or read anything where it says they are not liable for faulty power lines. It would seem to me that any campground that provides amperage of any kind to RV's should at the very least bear some burden of proof that their power boxes and lines are regularly serviced. There were several RV's that had damage to the same surge. None of us had surge protectors, but...I can tell you this....we ALL do NOW! Live and Learn as I did with signing on the dotted line with the insurance policy.
I hope you don't take what the park told you as the final answer to the problem. They have a legal responsibility to provide safe service. It's not your fault they had a problem with the underground wiring. You and the rest of the people need a lawyer and fast.
And I also think that the campgrounds insurance needs to be involved! they have insurance just for issues like these. anyone can say they are not responsible, but it`s just not the case!
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Your assertions are good on a claim against the CG or power company… but if you are claiming against your insurance, you will be compensated at the rate you contracted… if you didn’t buy and pay for replacement you won’t be compensated for replacement…
You can insist on oem parts on you car, but even then it will only be paid up to the cash value of the car…
You can make a argument that replacement of like kind and quality is more than average with some success but you will never get full retail value of a new replacement…
You can also go to court with your argument and maybe show a greater value than the offer but here again it will fall short of full replacement value in most cases… less you legal expenses…
My contention is to file against your own insurance with a claim this size gives them little incentive to go after full recovery… a $500 deductible and a 80% offer from the CG insurance will leave them close to whole without a fight… why would they do more???
If so, you need to have fulltimer's insurance on your rig. This will cover your unit for full replacement value for the first five model years and then for the full price you paid for the unit for each year there after. It will also cover your personal belongings in the unit for full replacement value, if you choose that endorsement, and you can choose the amount, i.e., $3,000, $10,000, etc. It is basically a "homeowners" policy for your RV and your worldly possessions. Granted it's more than basic RV insurance, but definitely worth every penny...and it's not really that bad. Our's runs $742 per year. This covers the 5er and it's contents for full replacement value, and GMAC also covers our MDT on the same policy for $488 per year...a total of $1,280.00.
As for surge protection...the best we've found is the Progressive EMS...it can be portable or hardwired. We have the hardwired and it has saved us on more than one occasion. We even had a power pedestal catch on fire, and it shut everything down and saved our coach from any problems...again, worth every penny!!
Good luck on dealing with the insurance company...hope everything works out.
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donee wrote:
Although its not as drastic, damage wise, as the OP, we had a 69 Bronco that had a short in the engine bay and caught fire.
Filed a claim with the insurance and they paid to have the whole vehicle rewired front to rear.
However, they wouldnt pay to replace the part, starter soleniod, that caused the fire.
Just doesnt make sense.
Although its not as drastic, damage wise, as the OP, we had a 69 Bronco that had a short in the engine bay and caught fire.
Filed a claim with the insurance and they paid to have the whole vehicle rewired front to rear.
However, they wouldnt pay to replace the part, starter soleniod, that caused the fire.
Just doesnt make sense.
The sudden and accidental damage caused by the mechanical/electrical failure is covered. The part that failed is not covered because of wear/tear, maintenance, etc.
COMPUTER_PALL wrote:
Several posters have suggested the OP file a claim with the park's insurance company, instead of his own. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, 2sooners, but I don't think it works that way. The park's insurance company (whoever that might be) is not obligated to the OP; their commitment is to the park, who is the party paying the premium. So until someone brings legal action against the park for damages suffered and the park is determined to be liable for those damages, then the park would be looking to their insurance company for THEIR OWN financial protection.
Several posters have suggested the OP file a claim with the park's insurance company, instead of his own. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, 2sooners, but I don't think it works that way. The park's insurance company (whoever that might be) is not obligated to the OP; their commitment is to the park, who is the party paying the premium. So until someone brings legal action against the park for damages suffered and the park is determined to be liable for those damages, then the park would be looking to their insurance company for THEIR OWN financial protection.
There are two kinds of policies involved here:
(1) Coverage of the park itself for physical damage; and
(2) Liability coverage which covers people and property belonging to others. If it was beyond their control, then liability would not enter into the equation. However, if they did something they should not have done or neglected to do something they should have done, then they are liable and their liability insurance would kick in.
By the way, a suit does not necessarily have to be filed for liability to pay. The purpose of the small claims suit would be to uncover the name of their liability carrier so a claim can be filed.
regarding the insurance company. When I called the insurance broker to ask him to please clarify my policy for me (the policy I pay $900.00 a year for...they were rude and told me that because I had a claim in progress, I needed to speak to the adjuster. I told him that I did not wish to discuss the claim, I had just wanted to get re-clarification of what the actual policy reads. It was like I was speaking a foreign language. He did not wish to discuss the policy with me. I have learned a lot throughout this entire ordeal. What I thought we had in our policy (and I did ask questions when we bought it) may turn out not to be the case. I don't blame anyone but ourselves for not making it clear when we made purchase. Trust me, after this is all cleared, the next insurance company will be writing what we have covered in their blood, before I buy the policy. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. As for the surge protector, we have experienced two additional power outages here since the surge that originally caused the damage. The lights flickered and went back on without problem...so hopefully, the surge protector is doing its job. Again thank you for all of your great advice and comments. Good Luck to all of you and I pray that my post helps those to be wiser than we were as still relatively new RV'ers.
MrWizard wrote:
i don't know what in the CG could cause that type of massive power surge
the power surge would come from the 'public utility' NOT from the CG, outside of a CG owned sub transformer failing, i don't think there is anything in a CG that could cause a voltage surge/spike that could do what your talking about.
too small a wiring should cause low voltage / brown outs,
wasn't there a post on here last year about a power surge at a campground in Utah, i think the upshot on that , was that weather / lighting strike on the power grid many miles away cause the spike and the utility company denied all claims as it cannot control the weather
i don't know what in the CG could cause that type of massive power surge
the power surge would come from the 'public utility' NOT from the CG, outside of a CG owned sub transformer failing, i don't think there is anything in a CG that could cause a voltage surge/spike that could do what your talking about.
too small a wiring should cause low voltage / brown outs,
wasn't there a post on here last year about a power surge at a campground in Utah, i think the upshot on that , was that weather / lighting strike on the power grid many miles away cause the spike and the utility company denied all claims as it cannot control the weather
What was told to us is that the neutral wire and the hot wire that was buried under the ground.....crossed which was what sent the 220
volts through the line of RV's. They had two wires that fused.
That is all I know.
dodge guy wrote:
For those saying it is normal to be offered less for a damaged device. if the TV, microwave or whatever that was damaged was working good with no problems, why should I have to settle for half price on something that I wouldn`t have had to replace to begin with?
For those saying it is normal to be offered less for a damaged device. if the TV, microwave or whatever that was damaged was working good with no problems, why should I have to settle for half price on something that I wouldn`t have had to replace to begin with?
If you're claiming under someone else's liability, the answer to your question is because that's the law that we inherited from the old British common law and the principle still applies in almost every state. If I negligently destroy your 1998 Ford Explorer, I owe you the value of a 1998 Ford Explorer. I do not owe you the value of a 2009 Ford Explorer.
Depreciation, as applied by insurance companies, is just a way of trying to estimate what that actual value of your used item is and it often actually benefits you since the adjuster will usually apply straight line depreciation where a lot of property actually loses value very quickly.
If you can provide evidence that your item is worth more on the open market than they calculate, then show them and they'll talk. When I adjusted insurance claims a very long time ago, plenty of people successfully did just that. I would tell them what the NADA value was. If they felt it was not high enough, I invited them to find me ads for comparable vehicles in Auto Trader that were higher. If they could, then I would negotiate a higher amount based on the evidence we had. In all cases, the principle is that you are due the actual cash (market) value of your used property... what you could get for it if you sold it, not what it costs to buy a brand new one.
If you're claiming against your own company under a collision or comprehensive policy, then it's whatever your contract says. If you paid for replacement cost coverage, then that's what you get. If you decided to save some money and pay for actual cash value coverage then that's what you get. In either case, your attorney may get you something extra just because an attorney is a professional negotiator, but they won't change the principle involved.
RN Enigma wrote:
When I called the insurance broker to ask him to please clarify my policy for me (the policy I pay $900.00 a year for...they were rude and told me that because I had a claim in progress, I needed to speak to the adjuster. I told him that I did not wish to discuss the claim, I had just wanted to get re-clarification of what the actual policy reads.
When I called the insurance broker to ask him to please clarify my policy for me (the policy I pay $900.00 a year for...they were rude and told me that because I had a claim in progress, I needed to speak to the adjuster. I told him that I did not wish to discuss the claim, I had just wanted to get re-clarification of what the actual policy reads.
Actually, you'd be better off following his advice. Adjusters generally know the ins and out of the policies in more detail than the agents. They're the ones who actually execute the policies, and who have to make tough calls when circumstances are ambiguous. In fact, if I were in your shoes, not only would I call my adjuster to answer my coverage questions, I'd also engage the adjuster in a conversation about what other coverages would have helped me in this claim. Yeah, that's an agent's job, but you'll find the different perspective enlightening and it will help you know what coverages to ask about when you are talking to prospective new companies.
Sellador wrote:
Actually, you'd be better off following his advice. Adjusters generally know the ins and out of the policies in more detail than the agents. They're the ones who actually execute the policies, and who have to make tough calls when circumstances are ambiguous. In fact, if I were in your shoes, not only would I call my adjuster to answer my coverage questions, I'd also engage the adjuster in a conversation about what other coverages would have helped me in this claim. Yeah, that's an agent's job, but you'll find the different perspective enlightening and it will help you know what coverages to ask about when you are talking to prospective new companies.
RN Enigma wrote:
When I called the insurance broker to ask him to please clarify my policy for me (the policy I pay $900.00 a year for...they were rude and told me that because I had a claim in progress, I needed to speak to the adjuster. I told him that I did not wish to discuss the claim, I had just wanted to get re-clarification of what the actual policy reads.
When I called the insurance broker to ask him to please clarify my policy for me (the policy I pay $900.00 a year for...they were rude and told me that because I had a claim in progress, I needed to speak to the adjuster. I told him that I did not wish to discuss the claim, I had just wanted to get re-clarification of what the actual policy reads.
Actually, you'd be better off following his advice. Adjusters generally know the ins and out of the policies in more detail than the agents. They're the ones who actually execute the policies, and who have to make tough calls when circumstances are ambiguous. In fact, if I were in your shoes, not only would I call my adjuster to answer my coverage questions, I'd also engage the adjuster in a conversation about what other coverages would have helped me in this claim. Yeah, that's an agent's job, but you'll find the different perspective enlightening and it will help you know what coverages to ask about when you are talking to prospective new companies.
I would amend that statement to read "some adjusters generally know the ins and outs of the policies in more detail than "some agents".
In my 30 years as and agent I had five auto adjusters and more property adjusters than that working my clients--I knew coverages as well and in more detail than the best of them and much better than most.
The second you pay anyone a cent for anything in this country there is an implied guarantee and warranty. I'm not saying I agree with it... it's just the way our great country works.
MrWizard wrote:
i don't know what in the CG could cause that type of massive power surge
i don't know what in the CG could cause that type of massive power surge
If the RV had 50 amp service and was plugged into 50 amp service, an "open" neutral will shoot 220 volts thru the wiring. With the neutral gone, this puts all the elctrical devices that are plugged in and turned on, in series acrross the two 220 volt legs. This higher voltage will quickly destroy the electronic components that are in microwave ovens, televisions, etc. Remember many devices are still consuming power if plugged in and turned OFF. This makes them suseptable to such surges.
An "open" neutral on a 30 amp RV supply, will simply result in a power loss, since only one hot leg is available.
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RN Enigma wrote:
In answer. We were all told by the RV park office manager that they would not be assuming responsibility.
In answer. We were all told by the RV park office manager that they would not be assuming responsibility.
BTW, just because they state that they are not liable does not make it true. Signing something stating that they are not liable also does not make it true. The CG putting up signs stating that they are not liable does not make it true. "We" (including the CG in we) do not get to decide the laws ourselves.
Personally, I think a small claims case is in order. I think that they are liable.