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Topic: Battery disconnect not working... RESOLVED

Posted By: mgirardo on 05/19/11 07:54pm

I dropped our Greyhawk off at the storage lot this evening and couldn't get the house battery to disconnect. When I got in the motorhome today the house battery was dead and the rocker switch was stuck in the down position. I'm guessing the switch must have fried while it was stuck. I didn't have time to look at the switch because I had to get out of the storage lot before 9pm or I would have been locked inside.

So my question is, is there any chance the switch is user serviceable or do I just need a new switch?

Thanks,

-Michael

* This post was edited 07/04/11 06:03am by mgirardo *


Michael Girardo
2017 Jayco Jayflight Bungalow 40BHQS Destination Trailer
2009 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS Class C Motorhome (previously owned)
2006 Rockwood Roo 233 Hybrid Travel Trailer (previously owned)
1995 Jayco Eagle 12KB pop-up (previously owned)


Posted By: enblethen on 05/19/11 08:04pm

Need to replace the switch in most cases.


Bud
USAF Retired
Pace Arrow

2003 Chev Ice Road Tracker



Posted By: Westronics on 05/19/11 08:22pm

The switch will need replacing, almost certainly. Possibly also the battery disconnect relay, but, once the battery is charged again, you can easily check the battery disconnect relay either with the new switch or, carefully, shorting out switch wires in the same way the switch would do.

Once you pull the switch, let me know how many wires run to the switch and I can tel you how it works. I just replaced my disconnect relay, so I have be educating my self on these setups.


2002 Jayco Greyhawk 24SS, Camera, ScanGauge, Inverter, Airtabs, Portabote, SeeLevel II, Tireman valves, Xatnrex Battery Monitor, Aero-flo vent, Trik-L-Start, XPS Rib, Chains, Lil' Stanker, Be kind to septic systems Ford: 1-800-444-3311. RV Tires



Posted By: mgirardo on 05/19/11 09:13pm

Thanks for the quick responses. My understanding of the battery disconnect switch is that its purpose is to energize the baterry disconnect relay which actually does the disconnecting and the connecting. If that is correct, I don't need a switch rated for 30 AMPs. A standard 15/20 AMP momentary rocker switch will do, right?

Thanks,

-Michael


Posted By: j-d on 05/19/11 09:16pm

On behalf of Westronics, and as a Jayco owner myself, I think it's safe to say the type of switch to buy is going to depend on your answer to his "how many wires?" question.
Your understanding that the switch triggers a high current relay, back near the battery(S) is correct. But the TYPE of switch will depend on the way the system's wired.


If God's Your Co-Pilot Move Over, jd
2003 Jayco Escapade 31A on 2002 Ford E450 V10 4R100 218" WB


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/19/11 09:25pm

Thanks jd, I'll find out tomorrow what type of switch I have. Hopefully between the only RV dealer in town, Radio Shack and a couple Marine shops one of them will have the correct switch (once I find out which one I need).

Now I'm worried perhaps the relay got fried since the switch was stuck "down" or depressed. Before I waste money on a new switch, would I be able to test the switch either in place or outside the motorhome? I have a basic knowledge of 12v systems and do have a voltmeter, although it is an old analog voltmeter.

Thanks again,

-Michael


Posted By: kodiakdon on 05/20/11 06:27am

I had trouble with my switch,I replaced it with a outside door bell switch.


Posted By: enblethen on 05/20/11 06:55am

Many of the switches are double pole , double throw momemtary switches.
Main problemis finding one the same size as the opening.

* This post was edited 05/20/11 08:58am by enblethen *


Posted By: Westronics on 05/20/11 08:22am

mgirardo wrote:

Thanks jd, I'll find out tomorrow what type of switch I have. Hopefully between the only RV dealer in town, Radio Shack and a couple Marine shops one of them will have the correct switch (once I find out which one I need).

Now I'm worried perhaps the relay got fried since the switch was stuck "down" or depressed. Before I waste money on a new switch, would I be able to test the switch either in place or outside the motorhome? I have a basic knowledge of 12v systems and do have a voltmeter, although it is an old analog voltmeter.

Thanks again,

-Michael


Sure, you can easily test the relay.

First, pull the switch out of the wall, how many wires run into the switch? Two or four?

If only two, simply touch the two wires together and see if the relay trips. If so, it's good. Presumably, it will flip-flop between connect and disconnect.

If four wires, then you need a little more work (this is a better, more reliable setup, actually). First, check which two wires are +12v and ground (use you meter). Label them appropriately The other two wire trip the relay according to polarity (which is switched with the switch). Label them, say, relay 1 and relay 2.

Touch +1`2v to relay 1 and ground to relay 2. The relay should trip and either connect or disconnect the battery. Now switch it around and touch +12v to relay 2 and ground to relay 1. The relay should trip in reverse from the above.

If the relay is blown, the easiest replacement to find will require four wires. See previous topic on this issue.


Posted By: Westronics on 05/20/11 08:44am

By the way I had a heck of a time finding the right switch for my slide-out (the same type of momentary revering-polarity switch).

I think any six-connector momentary on/off switch should do, but you will need to carefully figure out the wiring to get the polarity to reverse when switching it on/off.

The proper connection for typical DPDT switch (the kind you need if your relay switch has four wires with a reversing polarity output) is something like:

[image]

where the motor in the diagram would be replaced with the relay. (B = +12v, E = Ground)

The OEM switch can be very hard to find, but any momentary-connect DPDT switch will do - you just need to find one the same size.

I hope this is making sense. [emoticon]

Assuming this is what you need (four wires to the switch), you can search (Google, or you favorite search engine) for "momentary rocker DPDT switch"


Posted By: enblethen on 05/20/11 08:57am

Here is a manual for many of the disconnects:
Battery disconnect relay


Posted By: j-d on 05/20/11 04:38pm

Thanks WT for the DPDT diagram! I think that's the next thing I'm going to try for the passenger side power window in our old Ford minivan. Acted like a dirty motor commutator. Cleaned it, motor ran awhile and wouldn't work again. OK, new motor then. Same thing. Beginning to suspect wiring or switch(es) since the driver side can control passenger side as well. I should go find THAT diagram!


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/20/11 07:44pm

Ok well I pulled the switch off the wall. It is a two terminal switch, brown wire and white wire. I jumpered these two wires and nothing happened so I'm guessing that the relay is bad. Sounds reasonable since the relay was being energized for a long time since the switch was stuck in the closed position for about 2 weeks.

The MH was at the dealership and it was the service department that caused this to happen. They went to disconnect the battery when they finished working on the Motorhome, but failed to notice that the switch was stuck in the closed position. I talked to the dealership today and it sounds like they will send me a new relay instead of making me drive back, which is a 3.5 hour drive. I just need to send them pictures of the relay so they get the right one to me.

Thanks again for all your input. Hopefully they'll get me the relay quick so I don't have to keep running to the storage lot everyday to make sure the battery stays charged.

Thanks,

-Michael


Posted By: Westronics on 05/20/11 11:06pm

mgirardo wrote:

Ok well I pulled the switch off the wall. It is a two terminal switch, brown wire and white wire. I jumpered these two wires and nothing happened so I'm guessing that the relay is bad. Sounds reasonable since the relay was being energized for a long time since the switch was stuck in the closed position for about 2 weeks.

The MH was at the dealership and it was the service department that caused this to happen. They went to disconnect the battery when they finished working on the Motorhome, but failed to notice that the switch was stuck in the closed position. I talked to the dealership today and it sounds like they will send me a new relay instead of making me drive back, which is a 3.5 hour drive. I just need to send them pictures of the relay so they get the right one to me.

Thanks again for all your input. Hopefully they'll get me the relay quick so I don't have to keep running to the storage lot everyday to make sure the battery stays charged.

Thanks,

-Michael


The odds are fair they'll get you the wrong relay - the two look very much the same. In my search for a replacement, I only found the kind that needs reversing polarity as opposed to a proper direct replacement, but I did not even know the difference at the time.

I consider it an upgrade and worth the small amount of time it took me to run the two extra wires.

If they send the wrong one, you'll know when it does not work properly with just the two-wire switch. If this happens, you may be better off getting and using a properly-wired DPDT switch than exchanging the relay.

Good luck!!


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/21/11 06:38am

Westronics wrote:

The odds are fair they'll get you the wrong relay - the two look very much the same.


It's a Jayco dealer and the service rep seems to be pretty thorough. I've got to pull the old one this weekend and get some pictures and a part number. Hopefully they'll get it right.

-Michael


Posted By: enblethen on 05/21/11 07:02am

Two wires would tell me that it is an electrically held relay. Some of the new rigs have this in place of the latching mechanically held relays.
Did you check the wires for power? You would need to find a ground and check each wire for power. The other wire should show resistance to ground through the relay.
What does the existing relay look like?


Posted By: Dusty R on 05/21/11 11:23am

enblethen wrote:

Two wires would tell me that it is an electrically held relay. Some of the new rigs have this in place of the latching mechanically held relays.
Did you check the wires for power? You would need to find a ground and check each wire for power. The other wire should show resistance to ground through the relay.
What does the existing relay look like?


Garage doors only use 2 wire,with momentary contact switch (door bell button). Push once door opens, push again, door will stop in all the way open or closed, push again door will close.

Dusty


Posted By: Westronics on 05/21/11 12:53pm

Dusty R wrote:

...

Garage doors only use 2 wire,with momentary contact switch (door bell button). Push once door opens, push again, door will stop in all the way open or closed, push again door will close.

Dusty


Right. As I understand it, there are basically two ways momentary contact battery RV disconnect switches and relays are done.

Method 1. The switch has two wires. Press the switch once, and the disconnect relay moves to the opposite state (from connect to disconnect or vice-versa). The relay requires no power to maintain its current state.

Method 2. The switch has four wires. One set is power and ground, the other set runs to the relay. The relay wires get polarity based upon the switch position with no power at the center (neutral) position. The relay latches into the connect or disconnect based upon the polarity of the incoming power from the switch. The relay requires no power to maintain its current state.

I don't know if any RVs use any other method of battery disconnect - certainly there are other viable solutions.


Posted By: enblethen on 05/21/11 01:16pm

Some are now using electrically held. (Winnebago Industries)
We need to know from OP what the realy looks like in his or what battery control center is used in his rig.


Posted By: Westronics on 05/21/11 02:44pm

enblethen wrote:

Some are now using electrically held. (Winnebago Industries)
We need to know from OP what the realy looks like in his or what battery control center is used in his rig.


You really sure? I checked, and Winnebago is using Winnebago P/N 86273-01-000 (see relay picture on page 77) which is identified on page 85 as being the same as the Intellitec relay which requires only momentary power to engage or disengage the battery.

I would be very interested in seeing the part to which you are referring to make sure everyone is getting accurate information.


Posted By: enblethen on 05/21/11 04:00pm

There was a different thread where the new drawing from Winnebago had an electrically held. I will try to look back through and see if I can find it. Or at least I think it was Winnie.
That is why it would be good to know what the OP has for a relay and Battery control center.


Posted By: Westronics on 05/21/11 04:10pm

enblethen wrote:

There was a different thread where the new drawing from Winnebago had an electrically held. I will try to look back through and see if I can find it. Or at least I think it was Winnie.
That is why it would be good to know what the OP has for a relay and Battery control center.


Well, the OP has it well in hand now wince they are dealing with a Jayco dealer. Still, for others who may be reading, it's good to explore what is going on with these relays so others can troubleshoot theirs if (when?) they fail.

If I had known more when I started, my repair might have been quite a bit less stressful.


Posted By: Westronics on 05/21/11 06:10pm

enblethen wrote:

There was a different thread where the new drawing from Winnebago had an electrically held. I will try to look back through and see if I can find it. Or at least I think it was Winnie.
That is why it would be good to know what the OP has for a relay and Battery control center.


You are referring to this post, right?

This is a different thing all together - they are talking about the solenoid for using the coach battery to start the engine. Non one uses on of these for the battery disconnect switch - it would likely burn itself out under continuous duty.


Posted By: enblethen on 05/21/11 06:39pm

Here is other post with electrically held relay.
Drawing for electrically held
It is a Jayco not Winnie.

* This post was edited 05/21/11 06:52pm by enblethen *


Posted By: Westronics on 05/21/11 08:21pm

enblethen wrote:

Here is other post with electrically held relay.
Drawing for electrically held
It is a Jayco not Winnie.


The picture is incomplete, leaving me thinking that I am not so sure it works that way - I need to pull out my own Jayco wiring diagram (which I totally had forgotten I have) and do some research on relay/solenoid symbols. I know for a fact that my system did not work as simply as it appears from that diagram; the switch was (and still is) a momentary-contact switch, so I know something else is going on with that battery disconnect relay/solenoid. I may get a chance to look at that tomorrow.

There has to me more to it if a simple on/off momentary contact switch is able to trigger a cycling of the relay/solenoid between a connected and disconnected state. I really want to know how this system really works (or, in my case since I have changed it, used to work).


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/22/11 12:47pm

OP here, I have a couple pictures for ya'll to digest. I removed the relay (or at least what I believe is the relay) to get a part number from it. I checked both the fuses, the one on the right (while looking at the relay) is a 7.5 amp fuse. The one on the left is a 5 am fuse and it was blown. I didn't replace the fuse yet, but I'm hoping that is all that is my problem. The battery and the battery tray had a lot of corrosion on it, so I want to clean that up before I put everything back together again and check if the fuse was my only problem.

The first picture is how it sits in the battery compartment and the second is a more closeup photo. The one number listed there is the only number of the whole darn thing.

[image]

[image]

In the first picture, you can see the mounting tab on the right is already broken. You can see it real clear in the second picture. Gotta love Jayco's quality installers.

Once I clean up the battery and the tray, I'll report back if a new 5 amp fuse does the trick. I'm pretty sure I have one 5 amp fuse.

-Michael


Posted By: enblethen on 05/22/11 01:06pm

In the second photo, it appears there is a circuit breaker behind the relay.
KIB relay
It looks like the bracket has come in contact with some high amerage power. Might have fallen onto the circuit breaker.


Posted By: j-d on 05/22/11 01:08pm

The Jaycos seem to use KIB disconnects, see HERE
They say a single pulse latches/unlatches, doesn't need power to stay closed. That sounds to me like two wires.
I think Bill got Intellitec and that one seems to be a reversing/four wire setup.

* This post was edited 05/22/11 06:18pm by j-d *


Posted By: Dusty R on 05/22/11 05:06pm

enblethen wrote:

In the second photo, it appears there is a circuit breaker behind the relay.
KIB relay
It looks like the bracket has come in contact with some high amerage power. Might have fallen onto the circuit breaker.


Perhaps they slotted that mounting hole so they could start a screw then slide the relay's tab onto the screw then add the second screw. It looks like rather tight working quarters.

Dusty


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/22/11 05:47pm

enblethen wrote:

In the second photo, it appears there is a circuit breaker behind the relay.


I think the picture just makes it look like that. There aren't any loose wires in there that could come into contact with the breaker.

Unfortunately replacing the fuse did not solve the problem. When I tried to disconnect the battery, the new fuse blew. I tried another fuse, a 7.5 amp fuse and it blew that one as well.

-Michael


Posted By: Westronics on 07/04/11 11:19am

mgirardo wrote:

I ended up taking it to the dealer because the dealer told me that Jayco changed the relay. Although they were willing to send me the relay if I sent them mine, I figured let them mess with it since it was their fault.

I appreciate everyone's input and advice.

Thanks,

-Michael


Congrats on getting it fixed. When mine went out, I replaced the relay with the newer style which involved a wiring change, but it works fine and is likely more reliable. Also, it will be far easier to replace ii the unlikely event that it fails again.


Posted By: mgirardo on 07/04/11 06:09am

I ended up taking it to the dealer because the dealer told me that Jayco changed the relay. Although they were willing to send me the relay if I sent them mine, I figured let them mess with it since it was their fault.

I appreciate everyone's input and advice.

Thanks,

-Michael


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/24/11 05:27pm

Unfortunately a new switch do not solve the problem. It still blows the 5 amp fuse every time I hit the switch. I'm going to call the dealer and check to see if they got my pictures and find out what the status is.

Thanks again to everyone for your help. It is much appreciated.

-Michael


Posted By: enblethen on 05/22/11 07:41pm

Try disconnecting the small wires.
What color wires are on the switch? Did you get a new switch yet? Could disconnect wires at the switch and see what happens. If the relay needs just a pulse, a broken switch keeping power on all the time could be the problem.


Posted By: mgirardo on 05/22/11 09:25pm

Are you talking about disconnecting the Red and the Brown wires on the relay? I imagine that is for the switch. The wires at the switch are brown and white. I don't recall the switch indicating which was positive and which was negative. I would assume that brown stays negative from the switch to the relay and that red at the relay gets switched to white at some point. I'll have to check when I go back with a new switch.

[image]

I have not tried a new switch, but I plan to stop by Radio Shack & the RV dealership in town tomorrow and see if either has one.

When I first pulled the switch on Friday, I jumpered the two wires on the switch together and nothing happened. However, at that point the 5 amp fuse on the relay was blown, so I don't think anything could have happened. I only had 1 extra 5 amp fuse, so I'll pick a few of them up tomorrow as well.

Thanks,

-Michael


Posted By: Westronics on 05/22/11 10:51pm

mgirardo wrote:

Are you talking about disconnecting the Red and the Brown wires on the relay? I imagine that is for the switch. The wires at the switch are brown and white. I don't recall the switch indicating which was positive and which was negative. I would assume that brown stays negative from the switch to the relay and that red at the relay gets switched to white at some point. I'll have to check when I go back with a new switch.

[image]

I have not tried a new switch, but I plan to stop by Radio Shack & the RV dealership in town tomorrow and see if either has one.

When I first pulled the switch on Friday, I jumpered the two wires on the switch together and nothing happened. However, at that point the 5 amp fuse on the relay was blown, so I don't think anything could have happened. I only had 1 extra 5 amp fuse, so I'll pick a few of them up tomorrow as well.

Thanks,

-Michael


I think you'll find the white wire goes to ground. The red one, I think, has power all the time through the 5-amp fuse connected to the BATTERY side of the relay. The brown one has power whenever the relay is in the "on" position, as it is connected to the LOAD side through the fuse.

I think, anyway.

If all that is right, what happens is this:

State 1 (Relay Open):

Red wire has power. Brown wire has no power.

State 2(Relay Closed)

Red wire has power. Brown wire has power.

Presumably, when the switch is closed, the completion of the circuit for the red wire makes the relay Open or Close depending upon the state of the brown wire.

Well, maybe, anyway. [emoticon]


Posted By: Dusty R on 05/23/11 06:50am

In the picture of the switch with white and brown wires, 1 wire is power/hot and the other is switch leg return. It could be that the power/hot wire going to the switch has shorted to ground/steel body part some where.

Dusty


Posted By: enblethen on 05/23/11 06:59am

The brown looks like the switch leg. The white on the switch is ground. It is switching the ground leg. You shouldsee a small circuit board to act as a pulse relay for the main relay. It could be inside the relay where the fuses are located.


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