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nvreloader

Western Nevada

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Joined: 12/08/2006

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Posted: 08/21/11 01:57am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Is it better to be slightly over the front axle weight and height or be slightly under the axle weight/height when choosing the final WD hitch WASHER SETTING to be USED? I realize that you are not going to get every thing perfect.

The reason for this question is, it appears that I have a choice to make, from the final results of the weighing sessions I just completed.

The 4 washer setting seems to be the best overall setting to cover most towing options, I have.

Front axle weight = 4900#’s
Front Height = 18-1/2" -Rear Height = 22-1/8" (bed tank full, 50 gals, as normally used/no TH attached)

# Washers used = chain links under tension

5 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4600#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-3/4"- TH= 26-3/4"
5 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4580#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 19-1/4"- TH= 26-1/2" =(ATV)
5 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4780#'s= Front= 19-1/4"- Rear= 19-1/2"- TH= 27-1/2"
5 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4760#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 19-5/8"- TH= 27" = (ATV)
5 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4940#'s= Front= 18-3/4"- Rear= 20-5/8"- TH= 28-1/4"
5 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 5000#'s= Front= 18-3/4"- Rear= 20-3/4" -TH = 28-1/2 = (ATV)
5 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= ----#'s= Front= -----" - Rear= ----“ -TH = -----“ =
5 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= ----#'s= Front= -----" - Rear= ----" -TH = ----- = (ATV)

4 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4340#'s= Front= 19-5/8"- Rear= 19-1/2"-TH= 27"
4 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4420#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-3/4" -TH= 26-5/8" = (ATV)
4 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4500#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 20"- TH= 27-1/2"
4 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4580#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-1/4" -TH= 27" = (ATV)
4 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4700#'s= Front= 19-1/8"- Rear= 20-3/8" -TH= 28-1/4"
4 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4780#'s= Front= 19" - Rear= 20-5/8" -TH= 28-3/8" = (ATV)
4 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4900#'s= Front= 18-3/4"- Rear= 20-5/8" -TH= 28-3/4"
4 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4960#'s= Front= 18-5/8"- Rear= 21"- TH= 28-3/4" = (ATV)

3 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4260#'s= Front= 20” - Rear= 18-3/8" - TH= 26-1/4”
3 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4320#'s= Front= 19-7/8"- Rear= 18-5/8" -TH= 25-1/2" = (ATV)
3 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4380#'s= Front= 19-7/8"- Rear= 18-5/8" -TH = 26-1/8"
3 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4460#'s= Front= 19-5/8"- Rear= 18-7/8" -TH= 26-1/2" = (ATV)
3 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4540#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-1/8" -TH= 26-5/8"
3 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4600#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 19-3/8" -TH= 27" = (ATC)
3 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4740#'s= Front= 19-1/8"- Rear= 19-5/8" -TH= 27-1/2"
3 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4800#'s= Front= 19" - Rear= 20"- TH= 28" = (ATV)

What part does tongue weight play in this?

1) No toys, no fresh water, all tanks empty - TW = 1440# (1380# OEM)
2) No toys, full fresh water - TW = 1560#
3) No toys, no fresh water, full Grey and Black - TW = 1560-186+164+213 = 1751# * see below info*
4) ATV only, no Fresh water – TW = 1220#
5) ATV only, full fresh water - TW = 1560-220 = 1340#
6) ATV only, no fresh water, full Grey and Black - TW = 1751-220 = 1531#
7) ATV + SXS, full fresh water - TW = 1560-370 = 1190#
8) ATV + SXS, no fresh water, full Grey and black -- TW = 1751-370 = 1381#
(Then, assuming ATV is close enough to axle midpoint to be "neutral" and assuming CG of the SXS is 64" behind midpoint -- SXS would decrease TW by about 370#) (SXS Weight = 1500#’s)


3) No toys, no fresh water, full 47/Grey and 50/Black - TW = 2000#’s Weighed*
3) ATV + no fresh water, full 47/Grey and 50/Black - TW = 1750#’s Weighed * (ATV loaded in normal spot).

Tia,
Don

* This post was last edited 08/21/11 02:35am by nvreloader *   View edit history


2010 F-350,6.4PSD, 6spd man trans,CC,SWB,SRW, Caravan camper shell,50 gal bed tank,17,000lb Husky WD hitch,Northwoods 2008 28KS Desert Fox Toy Hauler,2005 Honda 500 Rubicon ATV w/rumble seat,1 Aussie waiting,watching and ridin shotgun on the whole outfit.

SoCalDesertRider

Arizona desert

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Joined: 12/14/2003

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Posted: 08/21/11 08:34am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4900#'s= Front= 18-3/4"- Rear= 20-5/8" -TH= 28-3/4"
4 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4960#'s= Front= 18-5/8"- Rear= 21"- TH= 28-3/4" = (ATV)

I would go for those 2 combinations right there. Front axle weight equal to or greater than un-hooked, front height as close to equal to unloaded height as possible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4940#'s= Front= 18-3/4"- Rear= 20-5/8"- TH= 28-1/4"
5 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 5000#'s= Front= 18-3/4"- Rear= 20-3/4" -TH = 28-1/2 = (ATV)

This combination could also be a possibility, if the number of chain links is not too much as to cause the bars to be angling downward too much. You want the bars to be close to parallel with the trailer tongue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4260#'s= Front= 20” - Rear= 18-3/8" - TH= 26-1/4”
3 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4320#'s= Front= 19-7/8"- Rear= 18-5/8" -TH= 25-1/2" = (ATV)
3 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4380#'s= Front= 19-7/8"- Rear= 18-5/8" -TH = 26-1/8"
3 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4460#'s= Front= 19-5/8"- Rear= 18-7/8" -TH= 26-1/2" = (ATV)
3 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4540#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-1/8" -TH= 26-5/8"
3 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4600#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 19-3/8" -TH= 27" = (ATC)
3 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4740#'s= Front= 19-1/8"- Rear= 19-5/8" -TH= 27-1/2"
3 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4800#'s= Front= 19" - Rear= 20"- TH= 28" = (ATV)

All these combinations are under weight and over height. Don't use any of these 3-washer combinations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4600#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-3/4"- TH= 26-3/4"
5 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4580#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 19-1/4"- TH= 26-1/2" =(ATV)
5 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4780#'s= Front= 19-1/4"- Rear= 19-1/2"- TH= 27-1/2"
5 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4760#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 19-5/8"- TH= 27" = (ATV)

4 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4340#'s= Front= 19-5/8"- Rear= 19-1/2"-TH= 27"
4 Washers/9 Links=F axle wt= 4420#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-3/4" -TH= 26-5/8" = (ATV)
4 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4500#'s= Front= 19-3/8"- Rear= 20"- TH= 27-1/2"
4 Washers/8 Links=F axle wt= 4580#'s= Front= 19-1/2"- Rear= 19-1/4" -TH= 27" = (ATV)
4 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4700#'s= Front= 19-1/8"- Rear= 20-3/8" -TH= 28-1/4"
4 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4780#'s= Front= 19" - Rear= 20-5/8" -TH= 28-3/8" = (ATV)

All of these are under weight, over height and have too many links. Don't use any of these combinations.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


01 International 4800 4x4 CrewCab DT466E Allison MD3060
69Bronco 86Samurai 85ATC250R 89CR500
98Ranger 96Tacoma
20' BigTex flatbed
8' truck camper, 14' Aristocrat TT
73 Kona 17' ski boat & Mercury 1150TB
92F350 CrewCab 4x4 351/C6 285 BFG AT 4.56 & LockRite rear

Ron Gratz

full time RVer

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Joined: 12/27/2003

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Posted: 08/21/11 01:25pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

nvreloader wrote:

Is it better to be slightly over the front axle weight and height or be slightly under the axle weight/height when choosing the final WD hitch WASHER SETTING to be USED?---
Don,
for 2010 and older F-series trucks, Ford specified the front end height should be returned to within 1/2" of the unhitched height.
Beginning 2011, Ford now specifies that the WD should be adjusted so that 50% of the "front-end rise" is eliminated.

Your truck's unhitched front-end height is 18-1/2". Your 3Washer/9Link height (essentially no WD) is 20". Therefore, your front-end rise is approximately 1-1/2".

IMO, a reasonable compromise between the old (within 1/2") and new specifications (eliminate 50% of the 1-1/2" rise) would be to shoot for a hitched front-end height of 1/2" above unhitched.
IOW, shoot for a front-end height of 19".

The following seem to fit this rationale quite well:

4 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4700#'s= Front= 19-1/8"- Rear= 20-3/8" -TH= 28-1/4"
4 Washers/7 Links=F axle wt= 4780#'s= Front= 19" - Rear= 20-5/8" -TH= 28-3/8" = (ATV)
and
3 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4740#'s= Front= 19-1/8"- Rear= 19-5/8" -TH= 27-1/2"
3 Washers/6 Links=F axle wt= 4800#'s= Front= 19" - Rear= 20"- TH= 28" = (ATV)

These would allow you to tow with or without the ATV, and without changing washers or links, while maintaining a front-end rise of about 1/2".
If you're concerned about rear-end squat, 4Washers/7Links leaves the rear end about 3/4" higher than 3/6.

Based on Ford's updated WD adjustment specifications, I would not choose any combination which makes the front axle load greater than the unhitched value.

Ron

nvreloader

Western Nevada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/08/2006

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Posted: 08/21/11 03:49pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks Guys,
Ron,
I received an email notice from Ford in ref to the question you asked me. Here is some information I recieved back: I will post the results when received.

Hi Don,
My name is Marjorie with Ford's Customer Service and I received your email regarding your interest to obtain towing information for your 2010 Ford F-350.

I appreciate and thank you for taking the time to write us. Please be informed that I am working on your inquiry. At this time, I request your patience for the follow up time to occur. By doing so, we can provide you with the most appropriate response.

I appreciate your patience and thank you for contacting Ford Motor Company.

Sincerely,
Marjorie
Customer Relationship Center
Ford Motor Company

Sometimes e-mail communication does not allow us to gain additional information that may be helpful in responding to your inquiry. Should you feel that we have not adequately addressed your questions, please feel free to contact us via telephone at (800)392-3673 between the hours of 8am and 5pm, local time, Monday through Friday. Hearing-impaired callers with access to a TDD may contact 1-800-232-5952.

For online support visit us at: www.customersaskford.com which contains answers to frequently asked questions and links to other key product and service information.

Ford Confidentiality:
--------------------
For security reasons, please do not submit any sensitive personally identifiable information, such as credit card numbers, driver license number, SSN, DOB, etc. Thank you.

THREAD ID:1-5X1DGX

-----Original Message-----
Ford Motor Company
Main Topic: VehicleServiceIssues
Your Inquiry:
Hi,
In regards to the new SAE J2807 Towing Standards and Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR)information/spec's.

Does this information above pertain to my new 2010 F-350 SD,CC,SRW, SWB, HD OEM Spring package/towing package or only to the new 2011 series F-350 SD trucks?

What is the recommended OEM Front axle loading spec's for the 2010 and 2011 F-350 SD Trucks when towing 10,000 to 15,000# RV's equipped with HD Weight Distribution Hitch systems?

Thank you,
Don

Owner: Yes
Vehicle Identification Number: 1FTSW3BRXAEAxxxxx
Mileage: 14001
Owner First Name: Don
Owner Last Name: Hansell
City: Lovelock
State: Nevada
ZipPostal: 89419
Client Browser : Explorer 8
Client OS : Windows
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not concerned about the rear end squat, has I have the HD OEM towing package etc, and I have 20"+ of spring bar clearance on any of the above washer/link rating.

Basically, I am looking for a washer rating that will cover/provide most of the spec's I may encounter while using the TH with H20/Toy loads involved.

Will Tongue weight be a major factor in choosing the washer rating?

Tia,
Don

Ron Gratz

full time RVer

Senior Member

Joined: 12/27/2003

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Posted: 08/21/11 06:12pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

nvreloader wrote:

Basically, I am looking for a washer rating that will cover/provide most of the spec's I may encounter while using the TH with H20/Toy loads involved.

Will Tongue weight be a major factor in choosing the washer rating?
Don,

For your truck, assuming number of Washers and Links is unchanged, a 100# increase in TW will cause approximately a 40# decrease in front axle load.

In a previous post, you listed loading cases with TWs ranging from about 1200-2000#.
This corresponds to a variation in front axle loads of around 320#.

Your data from the previous post indicate that, with 4 Washers, a decrease of one chain link under tension will cause an increase of load transfer to the front axle amounting to about 190#.
IOW, decreasing by one link under tension will approximately compensate for a TW increase of about 475#.

Now, the big question is --
what were the TWs when you took the set of 22 weighings.
Were they: 1) No toys, no fresh water, all tanks empty - TW = 1440# (1380# OEM)
and: 4) ATV only, no Fresh water – TW = 1220#?
If so, then your 22 weighings were taken with TWs near or at the low end of the expected TW range.
If that's the case, you might need to start at 5W/8L and then go to 5W/7L and 5W/6L as the TW increases.

Ron

nvreloader

Western Nevada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/08/2006

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Posted: 08/22/11 12:14am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ron, the big question is --
what were the TWs when you took the set of 22 weighings.
Were they: 1) No toys, no fresh water, all tanks empty - TW = 1440# (1380# OEM)
and: 4) ATV only, no Fresh water – TW = 1220#?
If so, then your 22 weighings were taken with TWs near or at the low end of the expected TW range.
If that's the case, you might need to start at 5W/8L and then go to 5W/7L and 5W/6L as the TW increases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron
All of the weights were taken in the following manner; Truck engine running in neutral/wheels chocked, no parking brake used, centered on scale, width/length ways.

The weights Toy Hauler Tongue Wt's were obtained using this method for all weights: TH Front wheel on solid ground with in 1” of scale bed, Height set to 20", bottom edge of frame, Tongue jack set on wood blocks, same height as normal towing, Wheel chocks used on TV/TH as needed, chalked marks to obtain same spot for all weights, centered on scale, width + length ways.

Nothing was changed for any of these 22 weighs, except the loading and unloading of the ATV for each washer and link change that was made.

F Axle WT= 4900#’s–R Axle Wt= 4100#’s -Total TV WT = 9000#’s
Front height= 18-1/2”- Rear Height= 22”
bed tank full,50 gals, as normal/no TH attached)

#3- The TH was filled with 47 gal/Grey and 50 gal/Black in the tanks.

After all the weights were taken,I weighed the Toy Hauler with Grey/Black tanks full,without the ATV and with the ATV loaded.
ATV weighs 740#'s

Tongue weights:
47 gal Grey/50 gal Black TW = 2000#’s
47 gal Grey/50 gal Black TW = 1750#’s= with ATV loaded in normal place
centered in the back, 3" from Ramp door.
Difference = 250#’s

Total Weight of Toy Hauler:
Toy Hauler Weight= 47 gal Grey/50 gal Black= 9820#’s
Toy Hauler Weight= 47 gal Grey/50 gal Black= 10540#’s = with ATV Loaded in normal place
Difference = 720#’s

Tia,
Don

SoCalDesertRider

Arizona desert

Senior Member

Joined: 12/14/2003

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Posted: 08/22/11 12:43am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You did your weighings with the grey and black tanks full and the fresh tank empty? Do you normally tow it that way? I would think you would want to weigh it with the fresh tank full and the grey and black empty...

Ron Gratz

full time RVer

Senior Member

Joined: 12/27/2003

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Posted: 08/22/11 06:34am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

nvreloader wrote:

Tongue weights:
47 gal Grey/50 gal Black TW = 2000#’s
47 gal Grey/50 gal Black TW = 1750#’s= with ATV loaded in normal place
centered in the back, 3" from Ramp door.
Difference = 250#’s
Okay -- understood. Your weighings were for the maximum tongue weight cases.
I assume this covers the possibility of returning from a trip with full waste tanks and little or no fresh water.

So, you can disregard the final paragraph of my 7:12pm post which was based on an incorrect assumption.

It looks as though all of your loading scenarios can be covered simply by increasing the number of links under tension as the TW changes.

To cover the different loading conditions,
you could tow with 4Washers/7Links at max TW and switch to 4W/8L or 4W/9L for lower TWs
or
you could tow with 3Washers/6Links at max TW and switch to 3W/7L or 3W/8L for lower TWs.

Using the 3-Washer sequence (6,7,8 links) would give front axle loads which average about 25# greater than the 4-Washer sequence (7,8,9 links). On average, there would be no significant difference in front-end heights.

Ron

nvreloader

Western Nevada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/08/2006

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Posted: 08/22/11 12:50pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SoCalDesertRider wrote:

You did your weighings with the grey and black tanks full and the fresh tank empty? Do you normally tow it that way? I would think you would want to weigh it with the fresh tank full and the grey and black empty...



SCDR
The reason I weighed this way was to find the MAXIMUM tongue weights I would be dealing with, when towing, which is the case of 47&50 gal of Grey/Black tanks being full, with very little fresh H20 remaining.

I plan on dumping both tanks ASAP before towing any distances, when possible. If I can't dump ASAP, I can when I get home, as I have built a dump station into the garage for the TH.

Both of these tanks are situated closer to the tongue coupler, the 96 gal fresh tank sits right in front of the dual axles.

I plan on doing some weigh sessions loading only the fresh water tank and ATV/SXS to see results and log these weights for the TH Tow book. The first temp weigh session w/96 gal H20 gave me a tongue weight of 1560#'s, without the ATV loaded.

With the ATV loaded, the TW should be around 1340#'s(est), the TW with NO H2o/ATV is 1440#'s weighed.

I want to have a log book that shows with this load of H20/ATV/SXS load at this spot, then set the WD hitch links at X# of links, when returning set the links at x links etc.
My son uses this TH also and does not understand this WD hitch setup load conditions etc, YET.

I don't plan on spilling the Apple cart(TH) or the Horse(TV) if possible, as I just retired and don't have the experience towing this kind of setup. I only used the F-250/Caravan camper shell and tent for 50+ yrs, I knew when I was overloaded then, I could not close the camper shell door.[emoticon]

Tia,
Don

nvreloader

Western Nevada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/08/2006

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Posted: 08/22/11 03:17pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ron Gratz wrote:


I assume this covers the possibility of returning from a trip with full waste tanks and little or no fresh water.

It looks as though all of your loading scenarios can be covered simply by increasing the number of links under tension as the TW changes.

To cover the different loading conditions,
you could tow with 4Washers/7Links at max TW and switch to 4W/8L or 4W/9L for lower TWs

you could tow with 3Washers/6Links at max TW and switch to 3W/7L or 3W/8L for lower TWs.

Using the 3-Washer sequence (6,7,8 links) would give front axle loads which average about 25# greater than the 4-Washer sequence (7,8,9 links). On average, there would be no significant difference in front-end heights.Ron


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron
Thank you,

Yes, this is what I want to do, if possible, just be able to change the links used to cover most all of the TW involved with the possible load situations being hauled in the TH.

Question: Is using the front height (19") a reliable enough factor to set the links used for the load being towed?

Possible situation or meaning:
Loading the TH with unknown amount of H20/AVT/SXS/Food etc, measured the front height at 20-1/2", keep adding links under tension untill the front height is back down to/at 19" +or- 1/8".
Keeping in mind that the load location of the ATV/SXS will change the load balance etc.

From the information, it appears that the 3 washer on the rivet would be the best place to lock down the hitch, to have the most link adjustment etc.

Tia,
Don

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