RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Class A Motorhomes: Determining wheel cut

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Topic: Determining wheel cut

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 02:07pm

Does anyone know what the wheel cut would be on a 34 foot Winnebago Chieftain? In RV tips, they tell you your turns should be determined by the wheel cut.

Someone said you can use a protractor to figure it out, but even if I owned one, I wouldn't know what to do with it. [emoticon]

Posted By: docj on 10/26/11 02:14pm

IMHO, this type of analytic approach to driving is what you expect to find in a book written by someone who probably has little or no real driving experience. Although some newer RVs can cut their front wheels a bit more than the 53 degrees that had been pretty common, I find it hard to believe that anyone fine-tunes their cornering to that degree. Most people quickly calibrate where the driver's seat should be relative to the corner when making a right turn which is the only really "difficult" driving maneuver you have to make. Since I don't enjoy the thought of cutting a corner and taking down a light pole I usually try to err on the side of making turns wider than needed, anyway.

Sandie & Joel

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Posted By: rgatijnet1 on 10/26/11 02:26pm

Go to a large parking lot and using markers, turn sharply right and left and you will get what it means for your particular coach. Besides the ability of the wheel to turn, the wheelbase also has a lot to do with your turning radius.

Posted By: Greyghost on 10/26/11 02:33pm

Check with the chassis manufacturer. They'll need the VIN and should be able to pin it down for you.

Pat & Roger Fisher
2005 American Tradition 40W
2012 Honda CRV EX-L 2WD,
Jewel, Clifford and Thor - Bouvier Des Flandres

Posted By: antsinmypants on 10/26/11 02:51pm

i would use the rear view mirrors rather than trusting a calculation

Posted By: Hank MI on 10/26/11 02:59pm

As doj said wheel cut is 'interesting' information. Along with turning radius and chassis overhang, also interesting but until you drive it and understand how all 3 come into play they remain nothing more than interesting.

How sharp a turn the wheels will allow doesn't take into account how much the rear will swing out in the opposite direction. It also doesn't take into account the wheelbase which along with wheel cut determines turning radius. Drive it, use your mirrors and watch closely. You'll soon learn what maneuvers you can and cannot make.

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 03:04pm

Well, like I said - the most logical thing is to drive it eastward until I hit the Atlantic, sell the rig, and buy a new one going west. I do really well on straight stretches [emoticon]

Posted By: Hank MI on 10/26/11 03:23pm

Nui wrote:

Well, like I said - the most logical thing is to drive it eastward until I hit the Atlantic, sell the rig, and buy a new one going west. I do really well on straight stretches [emoticon]

It's different but you'll get use to it pretty quickly. Use your mirrors a lot until you figure out where you are in the lane. Always use them when turning or backing up. Pretty soon you'll be a pro. Just remember it is more tiring than driving a car so don't plan on jumping in and driving for 8 straight hours. Get use to it then you'll know how much you can handle. Don't forget weather, wind, and the type of roads will also determine how long you can drive before you need to stop.

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 03:26pm

Funny you should mention that.... I get absolutely exhausted when I drive the Beast. I figured it was tension, or an incipient heart attack or stroke.

Nice to know it's just normal.

Posted By: Hank MI on 10/26/11 03:34pm

I can drive all day in the car, it kind of drives itself. The MH, whole different story, at least mine is. I'm not saying it's hard but it definitely is a whole lot different than driving the car.

Posted By: wny_pat on 10/26/11 03:36pm

Well, tell you what. From what I see motorhomers doing is small towns, parking lots, and campgrounds, I think that type of analytic approach to driving is what many newer drivers, and even some oldtimers need to know about. Take a look at Lazy Days RV Driver Confidence Course: Part 5 Turning in Your Motorhome, and then you will see the importance of it. Call if dumb if you want, but it is more that looking in your mirrors! Some folks look in their mirrors only to see their rear axle in the wrong place.

“All journeys have secret destinations of which the traveler is unaware.”

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 03:46pm

I was amazed at the sheer volume of noise, with everything clanking and banging - not to mention dishes flying out of the cupboard. I'm going to buy some bungee cords to prevent that.

Posted By: Executive45 on 10/27/11 11:44am

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is remember to look UP !....limbs, traffic signals/signs have a tendency to bite the upper parts of the RV. Now let's talk about BACKING UP.... [emoticon]

....oh! and you haven't lived until you cruise downtown San Antonio in a 45'er.. [emoticon]

... never trust a Garmin.....Dennis

We can do more than we think we can, but most do less than we think we do
Dennis and Debi Fourteen Years Full Timing
Monaco Executive M-45PBQ Quad Slide
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2014 Chevrolet Equinox LTZ W/ ReadyBrute
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Posted By: randco on 10/26/11 03:47pm

Check with your chassis manufacturer for the Wheel Cut. Most coaches are 45 or 50 and above. Watch the following link that discusses wheel cut. You will also find that the information in the video will become very helpful in turning your coach.

Turning Your Motorhome

There are 7 chapters listed under the above video. I would suggest that you view all seven of them.

RV Driver Confidence Course Chapters
Part 1: Adjusting Mirrors
Part 2: Your Front End Blind Spot
Part 3: Negotiating Curves
Part 4: Marking Your Back Tires
Part 5: Turning in Your Motorhome
Part 6: Your Rear View Monitor
Part 7: Backing into a Campsite

I agree with wny_pat, there is a heck of a lot more going on than looking in the mirrors.

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 03:48pm

wny_pat wrote:

That's where I got the idea from. Just judging by what I've done so far, I think I have to line things up with my hips.

Plus - I need to buy more collision insurance.

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 03:50pm

randco wrote:

I'm not a big fan of mirror-looking. In my first drive, I was so busy looking in the mirrors that I completely missed a red light....at lunch hour...downtown....on the Friday before a long weekend. The driving instructor got kinda pale at that point.

Posted By: TMBLSN on 10/26/11 03:59pm

wny_pat wrote:

I watched that video. It is OK, nothing special. He reiterates multiple times, with cartoons, that this does not work in a parking lot (only on highways). The only REAL video shown is using this technique in a parking lot (campground).

The best rule of thumb that you can use is keep an eye on your mirrors and swing as wide as you can, until you get a feel for what you need to do.

This whole bumper/hip aligned with what you want to turn around depends a lot on how far you are from the curb. If you are farther from the curb, you can turn sooner. If you 2" are from the curb, the bumper/hip alignment method will not work.

Lee

Posted By: John&Joey on 10/26/11 04:00pm

Nui you are so normal that I really do have to LOL. It's about time some one gets a little truth out there about what a PIA driving these beasts really are (at least the gassers can't say about DP'ers.)

Think of it this way, it's OK for anyone with cash or a credit score to go out and buy a big Class A, jump in, and take off seeing the US of A. But, to jump in an 18 wheeler you need to take classes, and get a certified drivers endorsement. What's wrong with this picture.

Just wait till you get out there on the road and see how some drivers get confused in the RV park's buffet line, only to take off the next day thru some major city. It is just downright scary.

Good news is you realize your limitations at this point. That is very good, because of that you will be fine. Just give it time, and take it slow and easy. BTW, don't worry about the "cut" thing, like someone else said, it makes for good reading and that's about it.

Posted By: TMBLSN on 10/26/11 04:09pm

Nui wrote:

You have an RV driving instructor, but you are asking for random information on the internet?

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 04:18pm

Had - I paid a guy for 4 hours of driving instruction on day 1 with the Beast. He just helped me with some basic driving techniques but I find I'm getting a lot more useful advice from the people here.

Posted By: stubblejumper on 10/26/11 04:18pm

Have the same motorhome and use the hip method as a guide and it seems to work ok.( unless your going 65 mph [emoticon]

) I generally start from the middle of the lane and by the time reaction etc cuts in you will clear the right curb. Watch for little old ladies with those shoppng basket/carts they tend to be impatient and stand right on the curb. [emoticon]

1999 Winnebego Chieftain
Wayne & Leila and Teddi (the Kid in the brown fuzzy pyjamas)

Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.

Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 04:21pm

stubblejumper wrote:

Have the same motorhome and use the hip method as a guide and it seems to work ok.( unless your going 65 mph [emoticon]

That's why I'm buying more insurance. Have you ever noticed how cranky those old ladies get!?

Posted By: docj on 10/26/11 04:47pm

John&Joey wrote:

It's about time some one gets a little truth out there about what a PIA driving these beasts really are (at least the gassers can't say about DP'ers.)

I agree with lots of your comments about scary drivers, but I don't agree that driving a DP is a PIA. Yes, it requires more concentration than driving a car, but after 13,000 miles of driving over the past 10 months I sure don't consider driving the MH a PIA.

If anyone has a MH that is difficult to drive easily down a straight and flat interstate I suggest they take the vehicle to a competent shop to determine if they have an alignment or frame problem. There is no reason any of these MH's should be that difficult to drive.

Posted By: John&Joey on 10/26/11 05:09pm

docj wrote:

John&Joey wrote:

It's about time some one gets a little truth out there about what a PIA driving these beasts really are (at least the gassers can't say about DP'ers.)

I agree with lots of your comments about scary drivers, but I don't agree that driving a DP is a PIA.

Please re-read what I wrote. I did not imply that DP were PIA to drive. I did state that IMHO gassers are. This is the campsite we had a couple of days ago, this is after a lot of high winds. Guess which one is me, and where are all my other fellow forum Class A gasser's(or old vintage gasser or DP'ers) in this picture?

It's getting time for me to make a change out of this rig, maybe to a DP or someting else (5'ver.) Would like to stay in a Class A (less then 10 year old DP?) just don't know if at this point in retirement if I can afford it. Again I would be trusting the advice of the DP'er group on this forum and talking to those on the road, that the drive is that much better.

[image]

* This post was last edited 10/26/11 05:30pm by John&Joey *

Posted By: Jackha1949 on 10/26/11 05:19pm

Contact Winnebago Industries customer service they should be able to tell you the wheel cut for your MH.

Jack & Peg
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K1ZMB
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Posted By: Nui on 10/26/11 05:23pm

Since I don't want to drive on windy or wet days, at night or in winter, I suspect my driving will be limited to one Thursday in July, between 2 and 4 pm. I'm not gonna get far but I'll have plenty of time.

Posted By: Tom N on 10/26/11 05:30pm

Wow, a simple question deserves a simple answer.

For the GM or Workhorse gas chassis.

The steering angle or wheel cut on the 7,500 lb. and 8,000 lb. front axles is 45 degrees, on all chassis built to August 28, 2002.

The optional 8,500 lb. front axle and all W Series chassis built after August 28, 2002 will have a wheel cut angle of 47 degrees.

Starting January 6, 2004 all W Series chassis wheel cut increased to 50 degrees.

-Tom

Sarver, PA/Crystal River, FL/Shelocta, PA · W3TLN · FMCA 335149 · Mystic Knights of the Sea
2005 Suncruiser 38R · W24 chassis, no chassis mods needed · 2013 Honda Accord EX-L · 2008 Honda Odyssey EX-L

Posted By: randco on 10/26/11 05:39pm

Since February of 2011 I have logged about 10,000 miles on my 40' DP pulling a 4,200 lb toad. While the ride in the DP is very comfortable it is much different that drive our Buick Rendezvous SUV. In the past we drove our Buick from Sarasota, FL to Jasper, GA in a little over eight hours. Now with the DP we don't attempt to drive the distance in one day.

I love to drive, whether it be an auto or the DP. But, the way I look at it is, I have about six times the weight and about four times the length of an automobile. I have a highway full of idiot's merging, changing lanes, braking, etc. all around me. Most of them could care less about me and my 55 to 60 feet of coach and toad.

I have a lot more responsibility driving the coach pulling the toad than those driving automobile. To reduce the driving strain we drive fewer hours per day and travel at speeds of 62 to 64 mph. Why? Because we have the time. Now we drive about 200 to 250 miles per day. That trip to Jasper, GA now takes us two days, but now we can enjoy every mile of the trip.

Posted By: cvbdsl on 11/02/11 11:48am

Nui wrote:

I was amazed at the sheer volume of noise, with everything clanking and banging - not to mention dishes flying out of the cupboard. I'm going to buy some bungee cords to prevent that.

This could also be the quality of the roads where you live. I found here in SE Ontario on the major highways (400 series) and the back roads everything does bounce and make noise, even the GPS moves around the dash on its beanbag mount. Once I crossed over to NY, everything settled down, even on the back roads - the difference was unbelievable. We thought we had imagined the severity of the rattling until we crossed back three weeks later. Don't know what other states are like, but I found NY state roads great.

Chris

2008 Holiday Rambler Scepter 42 PDQ
2018 Ford Edge SEL- Ready Brute Elite Tow Bar/Blue Ox Base plate/Patriot Brake System
Retired Canadian Army WO (1971-2000)

Posted By: Nui on 11/02/11 11:56am

If you think Southern ON is bad, try driving in Sudbury. You could lose major parts of your vehicle on some of their roads. I have to keep a death grip on the wheel to keep even a mini van on the road.

Posted By: cvbdsl on 11/02/11 12:08pm

Nui wrote:

Yep, was up there a year ago and I agree, even in an SUV the roads were rough. When I head out west in the MH I intend to go through the US and then back up in Alberta just to avoid some of these roads.

Chris

Posted By: Tireman9 on 11/02/11 08:57am

wny_pat
Watched the video. Learned something, I think...
Doesn't the instruction make some assumptions such as the driver's hips are always a specific distance in front of the axle and the turning radius is a function of cut angle and not affected by wheelbase?

If this is such a critical dimension why isn't it part of the specification list for coaches? I do note that the distance the driver sits in front of the axle is not consistent so how does that enter into the calculation?
Finally what about your toad? Does that have an effect on when and how much you turn the steering wheel?

I will admit I still have some difficulty understanding how the same instructions work for both a 28' coach with a 152" wheelbase without a toad and a 42' coach with a 296" wheelbase with a toad.
Do the instructions mean that if the cut angle was the same you would turn the steering the same amount at the same time with both coaches?

I don't mean to be difficult here but in my experience I have felt that knowing the response of your vehicle was based on personal observation, vehicle feedback and practice, not on knowing the degree of Ackermann, caster or wheel cut built into your front suspension. I have driven a few hundred different vehicles in my career including an articulated two yard front end loader and even raced a rear steer car with good results and no practice other than the instant feedback observed when driving into the first corner. If people need to know the wheel cut angle in order to drive their motorhome I would suggest they need a lot more than a video. What they need is a few hundred miles on a closed course to see how the vehicle really responds to the driver input.

I will admit I could be wrong as I have not driven a class A other than one test drive. The largest thing I have driven on the highway was a 1-Ton dually with a 26' trailer. The steering input with the trailer was a lot different than without it but I didn't bother to know the wheel cut.

Maybe someone will lend me a couple of different Class-A so I can see where I am wrong.

40 years experience as tire Design & Quality engineer with focus on failed tire forensics.

Posted By: bsinmich on 11/02/11 09:17am

Nui wrote:

stubblejumper wrote:

Have the same motorhome and use the hip method as a guide and it seems to work ok.( unless your going 65 mph [emoticon]

That's why I'm buying more insurance. Have you ever noticed how cranky those old ladies get!?

Those little old ladies get a lot crankier if you happen to splash them or run over their toes.
I don't think the average driver would noticr the difference between 45 and 47 degrees while driving.
I think just taking a long trip that doesn't take you through any big cities will do a lot for your confidence. After some experience you will then be at home on city streets also.
I also agree with your hours of driving. I had not used the headlights on my MH until a month ago when I didn't get to the CG early enough due to stopping on the way. That was pretty good to go 5 years without headlights. I have DRL so they are on all the time on low. I forgot how to turn them off and actually turned the OD switch off instead of the headlights.

1999 Damon Challenger 310 Ford

Posted By: wny_pat on 11/02/11 10:19am

Tireman9 wrote:

I will admit I still have some difficulty understanding how the same instructions work for both a 28' coach with a 152" wheelbase without a toad and a 42' coach with a 296" wheelbase with a toad.

That is very much like driving a tractor with a A-train (65' long with two flat bed trailers overall) around inside a manufacturing plant. They will go all kinds of places that a tractor with a 45' trailer will not go. The toad behind a motorhome will almost always follow in the tracks of the motorhome, while a longer stacker trailer will not.

Tireman9 wrote:

If people need to know the wheel cut angle in order to drive their motorhome I would suggest they need a lot more than a video. What they need is a few hundred miles on a closed course to see how the vehicle really responds to the driver input.

I certainly will not disagree with you there. Some of what I read on various RV forums and what I see on the highways are quite scary. That comes from someone who started driving tractor trailer in 1970 without the benefit of truck drivers school. My last transportation job, which I retired from with over 20 years of service, was as a driver/driver trainer for a regional pertroleum transportation company in the northeast.

Posted By: BigRabbitMan on 11/01/11 08:55pm

Some day I should measure the wheel cut on my coach. All I know is that it is very manuverable. I have done U-turns on 4 lane streets and a 3 pt U-turn on a mountain road (straight section so I could be seen).

While I have all three manuals for the coach (Owners, Parts & Service) I have never seen the wheel cut mentioned anywhere.

BigRabbitMan
Gas to Diesel Conversion project
76 FMC #1046, Gas Pusher became a Diesel Pusher
Discussion thread on this site
"You're never too old to learn something stupid."

Posted By: wny_pat on 11/01/11 10:36pm

Tireman9 wrote:

Roger,
With your experience in the training field, I would think that you would understand this. It is a training tool, and a darn good one. Did you watch the video on the link at the top of page 2 of the thread? When you have a novice behind the wheel in the drivers seat which is located on top of the steering axle, I think it becomes very important. Depending on your Wheel Cut angle, you start your turn at different places in the intersection. I know a paid fireman who would have not driven a aerial fire truck into a restaurant had he known the wheel cut and when to start his left turn at the intersection. It was one of the main intersections in town and he had taken other fire apparatus around that turn with no problems. But he was not properly trained on the aerial truck and knew nothing about wheel cut angle and how it affects on where to start the turn. The aerial was on a different brand chassis with a different wheel cut angle, and I admit a bit longer.

Posted By: Tireman9 on 11/01/11 07:56pm

While i have been in the auto industry 40 years and a car enthusiast longer than than I never thought of the "Wheel Cut" angle as particularly meaningful dimension on a given vehicle.

There are too many other dimensions that come into play to think that the Wheel Cut Angle can be used to determin which vehicle is easier to drive or easier to park.

To me Turning Radius is more meaningful as it is not too difficult to see how it is entirely possible for a vehicle with a lower numerical cut angle to have a tighter turning radius while another different vehicle with a higher numerical cut angle can have a larger turning radius.

I always figured this figure was used by RV magazines to try and give the impression that they were doing a scientific evaluation just co cover up the fact that most of what they were writing was a long PR fluf piece.

Posted By: Nui on 10/27/11 11:47am

Executive wrote:

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is remember to look UP !....limbs, traffic signals/signs have a tendency to bite the upper parts of the RV. Now let's talk about BACKING UP.... [emoticon]

....oh! and you haven't lived until you cruise downtown San Antonio in a 45'er.. [emoticon]

... never trust a Garmin.....Dennis

I'm thinking of selling the Beast and buying a submarine [emoticon]

Posted By: randco on 10/27/11 01:57pm

Executive wrote:

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is remember to look UP !....limbs, traffic signals/signs have a tendency to bite the upper parts of the RV. Now let's talk about BACKING UP.... [emoticon]

....oh! and you haven't lived until you cruise downtown San Antonio in a 45'er.. [emoticon]

... never trust a Garmin.....Dennis

I did Washington, D.C. pulling the toad????? Whoops....

Posted By: wny_pat on 10/27/11 02:46pm

Executive wrote:

Now let's talk about BACKING UP.... [emoticon]

....oh! and you haven't lived until you cruise downtown San Antonio in a 45'er.. [emoticon]

...

Dennis, I honestly did not think San Antonio was that bad. But stay away from Grant St. in Buffalo, NY [emoticon]

Posted By: wny_pat on 10/27/11 02:51pm

And those of you who think us olde truck drivers have no problems with this stuff, stop and remember that we had a short power chassis and a 45' to 53' trailer where you have a long power chassis and a short toad. It is a whole different step up which must be maneuvered differently. We just adapt quicker [emoticon]

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