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Open Roads Forum  >  Technology Corner

 > Batwing vs.BatMan vs. Jack: The Results.. finally (LONG)

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Trail-Mate

Frederick, MD

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Posted: 08/19/13 11:00am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Now use the supplied amp with the Jack and re-test, I have an been using a Jack for some time now. I can say for me, Big Improvement happened when I switched to use the amp supplied with the Jack and not the one for the batwing.


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MNtundraRet

Bloomington, MN

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Posted: 08/19/13 12:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dutch_12078 wrote:

Thanks, Jeff! A nice job as usual!

On edit: Hmmmm, looking at the data a bit more, is that 6dB difference between the "Batman" and Jack UHF performance really close enough to call it a "draw" if 3dB represents a 100% performance change?

"Batman" -59.08
Jack -65.60


The 3 dB increase is comparing Winegard III antenna (alone) versus the Jack (100% increase). What this means in the real world is that Jack does slightly worse even on mid range UHF (channel 36).

After going over the data numerous times, I think I was giving The King "Jack" antenna more credit than it deserved. They missed the boat by writing off the return down to channel 7 after the stations were allowed to drop the requirement to transmit both analog and digital (SD & HD), after the actual change-over date.

The increase on channel 7 (VHF) was 10 decibles. The Winegard III with Wingman was 300% better on the lowest channels. The Jack may be missing channels 7, 8, and 9 in a metro area where they pick up the other UHF channels if more than 50 miles from them.

Also; the Wingman gained 3dB (100% increase) as advertised and shown in the testing here.

I believe Jeff missed the fact that the Winegard III (alone) actually beat out the Jack on channel 36 (UHF) and matched at -45 degrees.

Good job Jeff!

Mark B.

* This post was last edited 08/19/13 01:05pm by MNtundraRet *   View edit history


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SCVJeff

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Posted: 08/19/13 01:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Trail-Mate wrote:

Now use the supplied amp with the Jack and re-test, I have an been using a Jack for some time now. I can say for me, Big Improvement happened when I switched to use the amp supplied with the Jack and not the one for the batwing.
(There always has to be one..)
The Jack has an internal amplifier!

Know your product....


Jeff - WA6EQU
'06 Itasca Meridian 34H, CAT C7/350


SCVJeff

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Posted: 08/19/13 01:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dutch_12078 wrote:

Thanks, Jeff! A nice job as usual!

On edit: Hmmmm, looking at the data a bit more, is that 6dB difference between the "Batman" and Jack UHF performance really close enough to call it a "draw" if 3dB represents a 100% performance change?

"Batman" -59.08
Jack -65.60
Yikes, you're right !!

This thing took over 4 hours to post, and that was 2:30am on Sunday. All that time was taken matching up the screen shots correctly with the notes. I looked at the wrong pic. No excuse other than I know after looking at the VHF results, I got very distracted.

Thanks for the catch, I'll fix

SCVJeff

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Posted: 08/19/13 01:16pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MNtundraRet wrote:

I believe Jeff missed the fact that the Winegard III (alone) actually beat out the Jack on channel 36 (UHF) and matched at -45 degrees.
Mark B.

I'm gonna go soak my head... Thats what I get for trying to make a marathon out of that. My bad..

Bill.Satellite

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Posted: 08/19/13 03:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Trail-Mate wrote:

Now use the supplied amp with the Jack and re-test, I have an been using a Jack for some time now. I can say for me, Big Improvement happened when I switched to use the amp supplied with the Jack and not the one for the batwing.


Just so it does not sound like someone here is giving you a hard time about this post, he is right but just short on words.
The Jack is designed specifically so the user can remove their Batwing and install the Jack without changing anything (assuming it's just a head replacement) including the "thing inside" which is not a booster.
The device inside is a 12V power supply which sends power up the coax cable to the head. Inside the head of both antennas is an amplifier. So, when you turn on the power supply you do turn on a "booster" but it's inside the head of the antenna and in no way associated with the power supply.
My guess would be that your Batwing was not working well so you replaced it with the Jack and it still didn't work well. So by replacing the interior power supply with a working power supply you made everything work as it should and therefore showing a dramatic increase in reception (the Batwing will not work well without a good power supply inside).


What I post is my 2 cents and nothing more. Please don't read anything into my post that's not there. If you disagree, that's OK.
Can't we all just get along?

Dutch_12078

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Posted: 08/19/13 04:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SCVJeff wrote:

Dutch_12078 wrote:

Thanks, Jeff! A nice job as usual!

On edit: Hmmmm, looking at the data a bit more, is that 6dB difference between the "Batman" and Jack UHF performance really close enough to call it a "draw" if 3dB represents a 100% performance change?

"Batman" -59.08
Jack -65.60
Yikes, you're right !!

This thing took over 4 hours to post, and that was 2:30am on Sunday. All that time was taken matching up the screen shots correctly with the notes. I looked at the wrong pic. No excuse other than I know after looking at the VHF results, I got very distracted.

Thanks for the catch, I'll fix

Glad I could help, and I do appreciate every minute of the time it took to do the testing and post the results. Get some sleep tonight! [emoticon] [emoticon]


Dutch
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MNtundraRet

Bloomington, MN

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Posted: 08/19/13 06:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The Jack may start working better for channels above channel 40. These channels are found around 650 Megahertz to 890 Megahertz (channel 69). Most stations found higher up (RF transmission channel) are the religious stations, home shopping, etc. They are generally shorter viewer area. The least desirable area for regular stations. It's better there than the "low power" analog band if they are located in an area with many digital stations. Most of us do not even bother to scan for any remaining analog stations.

The new antennas that stick to a window will likely work better on these stations.

Tom_M

New Hope, MN

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Posted: 08/19/13 06:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I decided to do my own test. I don't have a spectrum analyzer but I do have a Winegard SensarPro. The SensarPro is an adjustable 10db gain amp with a digital display that can display channel and signal strength. I don't know what units are displayed for signal strength but it will give a relative comparison.

The test:
Location: Minneapolis/St. Paul
Heading: 090 true
Distance to transmitters: 12.46 miles
The antennas:
1. Jack
2. Bat1 - Amplified Batwing with Wingman
3. Bat2 - Non-amplified Batwing with Wingman

For the Jack and Bat1 antennas the SensarPro was set for .5db gain (its lowest setting).

The SensarPro gain was set for 10db for the Bat2 antenna (I'm assuming the Bat1 antenna has a 10db amp).

Each antenna was installed on my RV mast so each test was at the identical location and height.

| Jack | Bat1 | Bat2
-----|------|------|-----
Chnl | SS | SS | SS
-----|------|------|-----
9 | 48 | 51 | 56
11 | 42 | 47 | 52
22 | 66 | 58 | 63
23 | 52 | 47 | 50
29 | 57 | 54 | 57
32 | 57 | 48 | 49
34 | 48 | 45 | 48
35 | 55 | 42 | 47
45 | 58 | 44 | 56
-------------------------
Edit: My columns get buggered on posting. The columns start with channel number then followed by signal strength for each antenna.

My results seem to counter Jeff's. I think more tests are needed to make a definite conclusion.


Tom
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Bill.Satellite

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Posted: 08/19/13 06:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Something is very wrong here. There is no such thing as a non-amplified Batwing with Wingman.
The rest of your information is confusing so if you could explain what you were doing and how the 2 (3?) antennas were pointed would help in understanding what you have posted. The Wingman is only effective on the UHF frequencies and the Jack has very little in the way of VHF reception elements. Where are you located? How far from the antennas (TVfool.com if you don't know)? Are there VHF broadcast networks in your area?
There are lots and lots of variables with UHF and VHF being the largest.

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